Starting point for Elk

[JJCII]

I am new to elk hunting and somewhat new to big game hunting. I live in Colorado and am considering going on an elk hunt this year. I am planning on purchasing a new rifle for the season and have been confused by a myriad of magazine articles concerning rifle cartridge minimums for elk. What is a good beginer's Elk cartridge for shots taken within 200 yards or so?

Thanks in advance.

[Long Path]

Speaking from hearsay, as I've never shot one myself, but have hunted them and researced the topic--

.300 Win Mag is HIGHLY favored by guides for their clients. Likewise .338 Win Mag. However, a .30-06 with a good 180 grain bullet will do the job just fine-- you just don't have as much room for error.

[Paul B.]

JJ. A wise man once said, "You can never go wrong with a 30-06." Gee. What did all these hunters use before all these hotshot magnums came into being? How about 30-30's,30-40 Krags and the good old 30-06. Oh there were other rounds available. The 45-70 and 45-90 were still popularat the time. Sheldon collected just about all species of American big game with a 6.5 Mannlicher-schoennur, a round not much more powerful that the 30-30. he used trhe 165 gr. bullet at about 2300 FPS. The old 7x57 Mauser with 175 gr. bullets was good too.
If you are relatively new to shooting, I would not recommend anything heavier than the "06" with a good 180 gr. bullet. Ammo can be found anywhere. If I were to want a heavier round, I'd look at a .35 Whelan with the 250 gr. bullet. It'd be good to about 250 yards or so. There is always the .338 magnum, if you are not recoil shy.
Tell you what. let us know what your shooting experience is. What is the largest gun you've shot? Did the recoil bother you? You know? Stuff like that.
Paul B.

[Mendocino]

I shot a bull outside Maybell CO last year with a Browning A-BOLT II SS in 30-06 with the BOSS. I used Federal premium w/180 grain Nosler partitions. This was aqequate but I felt very undergunned. I passed on a 250 yard shot at a trophy bull, because I felt undergunned. I am leaving on Thursday for an early season Elk hunt in the same management unit and this year I'm bringing my .338 WM. I know that I could kill a bull with an 30-06, but why take a chance on the bull of a lifetime with a questionable cartridge on such big game.

(bunker gear on)

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It is far better to dare mighty things, though riddled with failure, than to live in the dull grey of mediocrity.

[Al Thompson]

Ummm...

I have also not put an elk on the ground - Kudu yes, elk no..

The key point (I think) in caliber/bullet selection for the bigger stuff is that of time/yardage. I have a couple of Wildlife services buddies who hunt elk every year - the rifle of choice is an '06. They live in the area and have ample time (comparatively) to whack elk.

Those of us who are from out of state and only have this years vacation days to pop one may very well opt for a caliber/bullet selection that gives us max flexibility.

The consensus among the traveling hunters that I know is something in the .338/.340/.375 range. Good bullets plus a decent 2.5 x 8 or 3 x 9 scope seems to be the set-up. Black timber or meadows can be accessed with a combo like this.

According to Jim Carmichael, you have to really read some of the old writers articles. There wasn't the hunting pressure back then that there is today and an awful lot of Keith's and O'Conner's writings constantly referred to tracking wounded animals.

If I put up the $$$ for an elk hunt, I want a cartridge/bullet/rifle combo that allows me to ice one at 50 yards or at 350..

Your money, your choice..

Giz

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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"

[JJCII]

Paul B.-

I've done most of my centerfire rifle shooting within the military .308 Winchester and .223 Remington fired from semi-automatic rifles. I also shoot 12 gauge shotguns and am not bothered at all by the recoil from 2 3/4 No. 4 shot. As for the largest caliber weapon fired from my shoulder, it would have to be 40 mm (M203) kicks like a stout 12 gauge load. I wouldn't consider myself recoil shy but I was considering purchasing a Steyr SBS Pro Hunter in .308. Judging from the responses it is unlikely that anyone would consider this a wise choice for an elk rig. You know how it is when you handle rifle that shoulders well and just screams "perfect fit". Guess I'll have to order the same rifle in a more potent caliber.

Thank you all for helping me out. The folks at the firing line are the best!

[Long Path]

I met several experienced hunters in CO that were hunting with .308 with hot 165 or 180g loads. For shots under 200, that's fine, just choose your shot. Bullet choice is very important, here. Hornady's Light Magnum shoots .308 180's at about 2800, and that's about a .30-06 in my book. Thus a Pro-Hunter in .308 would not be a terrible choice for elk, if that's your one rifle. But it's not optimal.

Heck, if we're talking about stunts, I actually sat for a day in a small clearing where shots would not be more than 100 yards with a SMLE Jungle Carbine with 180 g. handloads that were at about 2400fps MV. I had every confidence that, had I a clear shot, I could down the largest elk with this handy little rifle with iron sights. (Funny thing was, when I saw some elk at 130, I didn't have my binoculars, and their heads were in the aspens, and I only had a bull tag and... oh well...)

The issue is, hunt with the rifle you're most comfortable with *in field positions*. Hunt with the rifle that you have the most confidence. American Rifleman polled some guides about their favorite choices for their clients to use, and almost to a man, they said that although they loved the killing power of .338 and .300 Win Mag, they would rather have a sport use a .308 he could really hit with than a .340 Wthby. Mag that he was recoil-shy about. One said he didn't mind a .270 at all, if his client could consistently hit with the 150 gr. loadings. (He was something of a lone wolf in his voicings, though.)

You might be interested to know that Barnes and some other companies are now making some lighter bullets for the .338 (185 g, and even lower!), that ought to be (a)sheer poison, (b) a real pleasure to shoot in a .338 Win Mag at.. oh, say 3000 fps. or so.

Practice at the range with a recoil pad between you and your rifle butt. Recognize that in hunting, you'll never feel the recoil, and you should avoid teaching yourself a "magnum flinch."

[Art Eatman]

I've been happy with an '06 for almost 50 years. But, if I was going on a high-dollar guided hunt for elk, with all that expense, and being led to believe a 6x6 or maybe even better were possible, I'd move up to more gun, even if I resold it later. WHAT IF the only super-bull showed up at 300 or 350 yards?

Now, if I lived in the area, and already knew where elk hung out, and had lots of hunting experience in the area, I'd just grab my '06 and go.

Still, better to shoot only within the capabilities of the rifle you shoot the best. "Shoot him again, he's still kicking!" Don't just stand there and gawk. If you're happy with a .270 or .308, shoot him; and immediately shoot him again for insurance! It ain't against the law! Even if you mess up ten pounds of ham, you'll never think about that when you're looking at the rack on the wall, cause there's a lot more than ten pounds of meat on an elk butt.

Apparently some experienced folks favor a through-the-shoulders shot if the elk is 90 degrees to you. Immobilizes him. So, check what specific bullets in, say, .30 caliber will go all the way through...Any bullet capable of busting both shoulders will go most of the way through, lengthwise, if you get a quartering shot.

Hope this crap's helpful...

, Art

FWIW, Art

[Dr.Rob]

wow I'm shocked. Novice hunter? Who on earth would recopmmend a belted magnum to this guy?

BUY a 30-06. You can kill ANYTHING in the lower 48 with a 30-06. I'd recommend a federal premuim 165 grain spitzer boat tail bullet.. better ballistics and MORE downrange power than a 180 grain bullet. Killing elk is about SHOT Placement.. not some damn fool "texas heart shot" with an elephant gun.

(aplogies to texans and elephant hunters)

Also.. depending on your terrain.. MOSTshots will be within 100 yards or less.. will you be in heavy cover? black timber? open meadows?

Use a gun that will cover ALL possibilities.

1 a 30-06 bolt rifle (stainless if you are hunting 3rd season)

2. a 40mm 3x9 scope leave it on 3 power if its that far away you will have time to dial up the power. (you may want rifle sites IF you break your scope)

3. Practice practice practice. With a scope AND your iron sites.

I'd recommend a SAVAGE 110 package rifle in 30-06 (i hunt with a stainless model 116 fsak) They are really accurate and moderately priced. Shop at walmart.

OR

A remmington model 700 Carbine in 30-06 It has nice sites but does not come with a scope.

The bolt on the remmington is crisper and its lighter wieght. The savage will drive tacks out of the box if you practice.

But really any bolt action 30-06 of american manufacture will do.

lol OK I'm off my soapbox...

Dr.Rob

[Elker_43]

Go for the 30'06. I have hunted elk for the past 25 years with the 06 and as posted earlier, you just can't go wrong....Moved up to a 7mm Mag about 3 years ago (180 grain rounds)and am very pleased with it. The first time out, I knocked down a rather large 5x5 and the performance was just as good as the 06. Either should do. Have a great hunt.



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To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.

[Al Thompson]

JJCII,

I think I goofed. Dr.Rob is in the area and has actually read your question. I guess I jumped too quickly.

As Long Path says "what Dr. Rob says".

The '06 in a Savage based on your criteria, should work fine. I killed two zebra with an '06 and had no problems.

Your humble(d) moderator,

Giz

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"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it sounds like
they're snoring." -Harvey Danger, "Flagpole Sitta"

[Long Path]

Dr. Rob is correct, and gets my applause, despite the fact that I'm a Texas hunter!

I do not subscribe to this terror of recoil, however. Note that I advised to practice with an additional recoil pad on to attenuate recoil, and to use no more gun than he is confident at hitting accurately with. Almost as bad as a novice with too much gun and a case of recoil shyness is a novice hunter with not enough gun for margin of error if/when he makes a marginal shot. No charge on the rifleman; its just an increased possibly to a flatlander in the high thin air of the mountains, shooting across a "ravine" that turns out to be a canyon.

"Belted Magnums" (on which the belt is extraneous) aren't anything a novice can't handle, so long as he PRACTICES! Practice is as important with the .338 as it would be with the .270, as it would be with the .308, as it would be with the .30-06. No one here will advise a man to hunt on a bore-sighted rifle, nor on a rifle that was merely sighted in. We all agree: PRACTICE. And with practice, a novice can handle a "Mighty Magnum". Practice teaches you how to handle recoil. Experience teaches you to wear earplugs and earmuffs when practicing, and to wear a recoil pad. (Make certain you're wearing glasses, preferably safety wrap-arounds. These help a lot with felt blast during practice sessions.) Remember that they had to tone down the original loading of the Mk 1 ball .30-06 from superior 174(?)g boat tailed bullet at about 2900 to the Mk 2 loading of a 150 grain flat-based at about the same or a little less velocity, because the troops were complaining of the recoil in the 8.5 lb Springfields! Even the .30-06 is considered to have recoil-- you just have to know how deal. Remember that one typically wears some bulky, thick clothing while hunting elk.

I was talking to a guy named Paul at Sierra Bullets, and he said that the 165 grain Game King is great on elk out of the '06-- provided you keep it under 3000. The same bullet was not a good idea out of my .300 Win Mag, however, as it would get it up to 3200, and over-expand and under-penetrate. Instead, he said, the 180 was perfect in .300 W.M., and would be fine in the '06. I tend to think that for the distances that you would shoot an elk with an '06, the 180 would be the prefered load, and in a good controlled-expansion. If A-Frames or Nosler Partitions shoot well for you, those would be great. I'm very fond of the broken shoulder shot, having found that the very few pounds of meat lost are a welcome trade-off for the animal being anchored right there. Everyone I've spoken to that has hunted both say that moose are much easier to put down than elk; elk will run, if they can possibly do so.

Dang, I wish I was going this year!!!

[Art Eatman]

Hey, Dr. Rob! Lighten up! I went back over the whole thread, and nobody "recommended" a belted magnum as the sole option. Various guns were suggested, each suggestion having a reason and a set of conditions. We have no way of knowing if he's recoil-sensitive or not, nor if he's an excellent shot or just mediocre.

Now, if a "Texas heart shot" (?) is what I commented on about breaking the shoulders, this was told to me by a Colorado elk hunter of a lot more experience than I'll ever have.

What the heck. You're both in Denver; take him hunting!

And if it gets too cold in December, come on down and we'll chouse blue quail!

Later, Art

[Long Path]

Art: I'm in!

[Dr.Rob]

Ok I consider myself chastized.

But on hunting elk in Colorado....

But ThE BEST equipment you will buy for your elk hunt in colorado are as follows:

A sleeping bag rated to -10 degrees
(spare NO expense on this, north face, kelty and camp trails make excellent bags, as well as cabela's)

A GOOD pair of boots. I hunt in 3rd season and usually wear Sorel Pac Boots. Again SPARE NO EXPENSE. You won't be doing any hunting with sore cold wet feet.

A good Topo map and compass of your area. maps unlimited has all kinds of maps (on 8th and Lincoln). A good silva compass will cost you $20.

Read the Book THE ELK HUNTER ($11.96 at amazon .com) has a lot of good basic information and tips.

And lastly.. since you already live here... visit the zoo and GO LOOK at a LIVE ELK.. sounds silly but it will give you an idea of how big they are, their coloration and size and how big the "kill zone" is quartering head-on, away, or broadside.

BE BE BE Prepared. No matter what season you hunt in you may hunt in shirt sleeves or a wool parka. In early november I've hunted in 70 degrees and had in cold enough to freeze the firing pin my dad's remmington 760 pump gun.

Your rifle, while important, is not as important as the hunter who wields it. Get in shape. Walk a LOT. Drink lots of water. Scout your area.CARRY DRY SOCKS.

Act like a boy scout and you will have a much better hunt.

Good Luck and have fun (and hey if ytou need any assistance poicking an area or gear let me know I've been doing this for 17 years.. and I've ALMOST gotten it figured out.)

practice practice practice...

Dr.Rob

[david_m_curry]

I do *not* want to be reminded of elk hunts in Colorado! My father-in-law left on one yesterday and didn't invite me because, in his opinion, I lack the finances. He's right, but that's not the point So if you want to discuss elk further, use a code-words or something, e.g. "Boy did I get a swell 5x5 thingie-jiggie whilst in Colorado the other day!" Anyway, I'm about to leave on a short (1.5 day) business trip this afternoon, so I'll go ahead and wish everyone well this weekend a little early!

Cheers,
David Curry

[Art Eatman]

JJCII, Dr Rob's advice is good, PARTICULARLY about the boots.

A transplanted Coloradan, back in '84 (That's 1984, Dennis.) opined we should go to his old stomping grounds and hunt the wily elk. I sez OK, not knowing any better.

No problem on anything except the boots. We went to Doctor Park, above Gunnison. 10,500 feet at the campsite. Opening morning, I hunted over a "little hill" above camp. Looking at the topo map, later, I figured out why there wasn't any air in the air, up there.

The night before the season opened, it snowed. Opening morning, the snow melted. Wet feet. That night it got colder, and snowed again. Didn't melt. Changed to dry boots and only got a "little" wet in the tootsies. Next morning, the radio sez, "...and in Gunnison, it's four degrees."

"Are we having fun, yet?", I asked. Nobody said "Yeah!"

The water jugs were frozen solid. In October! So, melt snow for coffee. Oops! First, heat the Coleman generator in the campfire, so you could light the stove. Then melt more snow. You got any idea how much snow melts to how little water? Boil the canned goods, so something not totally solid would come out when you opened the can. Same for eggs. Whee!

And more snow.

I suggested that since other hunters were reporting that the elk had all bailed off the mountain, we could prove we were as smart as a damned elk...

All in all, it was more of a learning experience than a hunt, but I've had worse times. Saw a few elk, nuthin' shootable, saw some mulies, had some good campfire sessions. Lotsa highway entertainment on the way home, what with frozen passes and such.

Quien sabe? Might get back!

Later, Art

[Long Path]

You know, Art, the boots may be the most important part of the hunt. Mine pooted out on me, and likewise my second pair. Dad's soaked through up there, and as he was wearing Irish Setters (TX bird hunting boot) in calf-deep snow on a 10 degree hunt, he got a little touch of frostbite. (shudder) You know, the funny thing is, Dad now has some of the nicest boots I've seen of late! They're lined with Gore-Tex and have some umpteen grams of Thinsulate in 'em. Even though he's usually in TX, he seems ever so much happier for them, and the price was less than $200 from Cabellas. When you can buy such comfort guaranteed for so relatively little, that's a bargain. Wish to Gawd that Cabella's sold footgear in Size 18! I have to use a pair of low-quarter Timberlands, lotsa wool sock, and gators. No other choice, so far. (Would y'all just grow up and get some feet? )

BTW, after two elk hunts in CO, I'm in LOVE with Gore-Tex! I'm also mighty fond of my stainless rifle, now. Roger the misery in Paradise.

Wish I was going.

[Rocky Road]

Dr. Rob, Art, Long Path---

Double--make that, TRIPLE-- roger on the boots thing. Considering the expense of the trip, the hunt, licenses, and so on, a decent pair of boots, proper socks and polypropylene underwear are DIRT CHEAP!

Lack of preparation can turn a truly beautiful hunting experience into a survival exercise, and I, for one, am getting too durned old for that kind of thing.

Speaking of the hunting experience--When I returned to work after a Colorado elk hunt, I was asked by several people, "Did you have any success?" My standard reply became, "Oh, si, amigo--Very successful--Saw a lot of beautiful country, met some really nice folks, safe travel. I didn't happen to fire a shot the whole week, but it was quite successful."

Some of those asking are not hunters and aren't aware that it's not all about killing something. I think it was Ortega y Gassett who said, "One does not hunt in order to kill. One sometimes kills in order to have hunted." Words to that effect.

A true pleasure to share the forum with people who understand that concept.

Re: rifles--
You've all said it well. I toted a .338 WinMag on two elk hunts and was confident. Didn't get to use it. When I fell on the rifle and was unsure of the scope, I hauled out the old 'aught-six backup and finished the hunt with it. Strangely, I didn't feel a bit undergunned. I merely adjusted my expectations and tactics and think that, had the opportunity arisen, it would have served perfectly well.

Best to all--

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

[Dr.Rob]

Man you guys are making me fell REALLY GUILTY about living in Colorado. (hahahah not really)

Ok Cold Weather in Colorado story time:

My uncle was coming out from West Virginia for his FIRST elk hunt. We told him IT WILL BE COLD bring wool britches and a warm socks and a muffler for your jimmy... cause its COLD. To wit, he replied, "Well it can't be any colder than SPRUCE KNOB" (Spruce knob is a tiny electrial power shack on a windswept WVa peak of a staggering 4000 foot elevation.)

Skip forward to Hunt camp. The scene: 85000 feet above sea level a hard sided apache camper with TWO coleman propane heaters on full blast and the wind howling outside at 30 miles per and gusting and shaking the camper. The thermometer was bottomed out at -10 and the mercury was out of places to go. As I turn out the lantern and lay back in my camp trails -20 rated mummy bag my warm breath falls back onto my face as SNOW.


In the morning the 5 gallon water jug sitting NEXT To the heater is frozen solid and both heaters are still on high. I looked over at the bottle of whiskey my uncle keeps "for his post-hunt rhematism" and was SHOCKED to see it had turned CLOUDY. (i don't know how cold that is folks but thats DAMN COLD).
I roused my uncle with promises of hot coffeee from the night before saved in insulated thermoses. Cold Coffee. Lets face it kids, my hillbilly uncle is no iced latte drinker.

As we changed from our sleeping Logn johns into our hunting clothes I heard my uncle remark as he shivered in front of the heater at full blast

"you know i believe its a might colder up here than on spruce knob"

The next year he had a new sleeping bag, boots and heavier coat.. and it was 40-50 degrees most days. But hey... you gotta be prepared in the rockies.

Hope you all enjoyed.

Dr.Rob

[Long Path]

And then there's the variation of the weather up where the elk roam---

I'm from Texas, and our state pride is such that we assume people should be impressed even by our weather, which does indeed have a wide variety of conditions, ranging from 110+ in the summer to under 10 in the winter. So you run into people who say all the time, "One that about this Texas weather-- if you don't like it now, wait 5 minutes, and you'll get something completely different"

To which I respond,"Horse puckey. Go to the Continental Divide in the fall, and tell me about variation of weather."

We arrived at the campsite at about 7:00 in the evening on Oct 9th. It was about 50, and I was impressed at how chilly that was, having just driven up from the Dallas-Ft. Worh area. Our campsite was at about 8,000 ft. The next day, when we woke up, it was a lovely day that got up to 85 degrees. One hunter lost some meat trying to pack it out of a wilderness area by himself in plastic bags [sad]. By the end of our scout, we knew this was going to be cake. Mountain hunting, surely, is a snap!

The next morning, crisp but comfy. Dusted with snow, then 65 degrees. Then 4-6" of hail came down and nearly destroyed the tent!!!

Then hard rain for 2 hours. Then no clouds. The ground begins to freeze as the temperature plunges.

The next morning, it was 08 degrees in Pagosa Springs, which was way lower elevation than us. One foot of snow, and 2" of ice crystals on the inside of the tent ceiling, where our breath had condensed.

This went on for the duration, and when I was taking down the tent at the end of the hunt in mid to late October, I took off my shirt to pick up some rays. It was in the high 70's!

When those fronts spill over the mountain passes, the temperature will drop 30 degrees in 10 minutes, and a pleasant day is fast become your worst nightmare.

Starting point for Elk Hunting? Satisfy yourself with the rifle, and then concern yourself with the finer points of keeping warm and dry!

I still wish I was going!

[Ankeny]

I have never hunted elk in Colorado, but I have killed 28 of the critters in Wyoming. I killed three of them with my bow and they went less than 75 yards so I guess about any rifle will do if you get under 20 yards and shoot them through both lungs.

In recent years I have been using a .30-338 just because I have an exceptionally accurate rifle and the recoil doesn't bother me. I have shot two elk with the .30-338 with 180 grain bullets.

The other 23 elk were killed with Winchester, Remington, Steyr, Kliengunther, Colt, Dakota, or Mannlicher Schoenaur rifles chambered in .30-06 loaded with 180 grain bullets. The six point bull I shot with my old Remington 721 topped with a Weaver K-4 scope died just as quickly as the one I killed with my Custom Sako .30-.338 fitted with a 2.2-9 Swarovski. My twin brother has killed as many elk as I have and he has never crippled one. He uses a .270 with 130 grain Sierra bullets. My older brother has killed more elk than I and he uses a .338 Win Mag and wouldn't even think of hunting elk with a .270. My 2 cents worth.

[Keith Rogan]

I don't think a heavy rifle is necessary for elk. Much larger animals are regularly taken with lighter rifles.

I shoot some pretty heavy stuff myself, but I invest the time and money into reloading to get good with it.

I think for most people, in most situations, a 30.06 is the best choice. I'd rather hunt with someone who is good with a 30.06 than flinches with a .338, I'll spend less time tracking wounded game and more time hunting. Most people would be better served by learning some basic fieldcraft to allow them to get close than by overgunning themselves to make up for the lack.
Ideally, everyone would have the perfect rifle for every occasion and have the field skills of an Apache. Unfortunately, in the real world people don't have the time or money.
So get yourself a 30.06 and spend the range time to learn to place a bullet in the x ring offhand. Then get a camera and spend your weekends next summer in learning to stalk elk. You'll be better served in the long run.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan

[Ankeny]

A little off topic but somewhat germane. Last weekend two groups of hunters were attacked by Grizzly bears in my county. First bear was dispatched cleanly at close range by a levelheaded guide who “borrowed” the client’s 30-06. The second bear was wounded by two clients shooting “big dawg magnums” and now some poor Federal Fish and Wildlife agent gets to pursue a gut shot Yogi around in the timber. Doesn’t matter if the game is dangerous, trophy or just table meat. Use a rifle you can handle well that is big enough to get the job done. Learn to shoot and keep your head on straight when the time comes to squeeze the trigger.

[Keith Rogan]

Ron, Excellent illustration!

I have a friend who shoots a .30/378 - I think you said you had one as well. Its an excellent long range cartridge, but my friends problem is that he doesn't reload and every time he pulls the trigger its about $3.00.
He isn't rich and has no intention of learning to reload since its "dangerous" he says.
Well, since he rarely shoots this rifle, he of course shoots it badly. We went out to the range earlier this summer and he fired a total of 6 shots. 4 of them at 100 yards "to check the zero", a miserable group measuring about 4 inches. Another two shoots at a 300 yard target, one which hit about six inches below the bull and the other missed the paper completely.
The irony is that he has an inexpensive Ruger in 30.06 that he shoots very well. Out to about 400 yards he'll put it in the black every time.
He'll probably shoot the Weatherby just enough to develop a flinch and ruin him for any rifle he shoots.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan