About using smokeless in my 45-70 sharps

savagelover · December 19, 2011, 03:00 PM

I am going to be doing some testing of smokeless powder in my Pedersoli 45-70 sharps rifle...Getting tired of all the cleaning and such with the Goex powder...

So I think I will try some of the Trailboss first..Bullet will be the Lyman cast 500 grain round nose of course...Only thing I would like to ask at this time is..

Do you think I will be needing some crimp on these loads...Back a long time I played around with Unique and a 416 gr.Cast bullet...But I can not remember if I crimped or not..

So any information you may have will be greatly appreciated....John

overkill0084 · December 19, 2011, 03:06 PM

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about your setup. But this is where I would point you:

http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bul.../dp/B004DWBKQY

I'm 99% sure they have data in there that you can make use of.

savagelover · December 19, 2011, 03:15 PM

I appreciate your kind reply,but Lyman does not offer too much about the crimping issue's...I have all their biiks but that one..I may have to buy it just for the read....I don't even cast my own bullets any more..Too much hassel for me..For the ammount I shot now it is just as cheap for me to buy a 100 or so...So maybe I will get some advice from those who have done it...

TomADC · December 19, 2011, 04:21 PM

Your going to load similar to trapdoor pressures, I shoot both Varget & 3031 in my Sharps I don't use a heavy crimp either.
I did load some 405 gr bullets with 10 grs of Unique and at 50 yards load was super accurate with zero recoil.
My Lyman cast bullet manual 4th edtion doesn't list a load for Trailboss but I didn't check Hodgdons website for any.

Edit: I see Hodgdon website has loads for Trailboss (IMR) but 485 grs is the largest bullet listed.

savagelover · December 19, 2011, 05:48 PM

You know,come to think of it I don't think there is a crimping groove in my bullets...I know there are several powders I can use..I was just think that maybe the one that offered the most case fill might be more accurate..??

Some where in my old list of note is a forumula for figureing out the load data for heav ier or lighter bullets...If I can find it I will share it with you guys..

Slamfire · December 19, 2011, 06:23 PM

Try AA5744. Accurate Arms says it was developed in large black powder cases. It shoots very well in 45/70 and with cast bullets in 30-30, 308, 30-06, and 303 Brit.

It is not position sensitive, all my chronograph data was shot standing. I lowered the muzzle, dropped the round in, and raised the muzzle to shoot.

45/70 Martini Henry

26" Shilen Barrel

405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 1294
Std Dev = 14
ES = 40
Low = 1274
High = 1314
N = 15

405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F
Ave Vel = 1284
Std Dev = 23
ES = 80
Low = 1263
High = 1343
N = 12

405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F
Ave Vel = 1323
Std Dev = 14
ES = 38
Low = 1307
High = 1345
N = 5

savagelover · December 19, 2011, 10:01 PM

that is a beautiful rifle..real nice..

NoSecondBest · December 20, 2011, 07:57 AM

I have a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and I've been trying a LOT of different loads over the last year. I haven't found any where crimping did anything to improve accuracy. Being a single shot I don't see the need to crimp any loads. Having done a lot in research on this I have found a number of shooters/reloaders who don't crimp any loads but suggest removing any belling on the case mouth with the crimping die without actually creating a crimp. A number of my cast loads have the bullets seated out just "kissing" the rifeling and the bullets can't be crimped in the crimping grove. This is just my $.02.
PS - TrailBoss has been extremely accurate in my gun but I miss having absolutely no recoil and almost no noise. Low pressure/velocity loads with 2400, Unique, and 4198 have produced excellent results. I'm getting ready to try RL7 which I've heard good reports on. I'm using mostly 405 grain cast and some 350 grain cast for the majority of my loading. Fun to shoot and deadly on deer. Good luck.

savagelover · December 20, 2011, 09:49 AM

NOSECONDBEST===Yeah I thought about the single shot aspect as well.But what I wondered about was getting a good powder burn,pressure,etc..You know maybe one or two loads might not be as tight as the other or what ever..Maybe this is not an issue...My thought was I would get a better MV with a slight crimp..Or maybe I am confusing the whole issue..
So I guess the best thing to do is just load and shoot and not worry about all that other BS......thanks john

NoSecondBest · December 21, 2011, 01:24 PM

Your crimp is gone as soon as the primer goes off. There is enough impulse pressure at that nano second to push the bullet into the rifling before the powder fully ignites. (A hotly debated topic in some places but I believe it's true. Ever have a round go off where the primer went off and the powder didn't ignite? I've seen it and the bullet ended up three inches inside the barrel). I've tried crimping vs no crimp and haven't seen a difference in grouping. Consistant neck tension is important.

JT-AR-MG42 · December 21, 2011, 02:51 PM

I'll second Slamfire.

5744 is THE powder for your situation. You will be happy you tried it and will do no further searching.

It is great with cast for me in cals 30-30 on up.

And the bonus is just like the name - Accurate.

I just take the flare off of single shot loads.

JT

savagelover · December 23, 2011, 09:49 AM

I don't know much about your setup. But this is where I would point you:

http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bul.../dp/B004DWBKQY

I'm 99% sure they have data in there that you can make use of

I ordered the book and thank you for the suggettion....guess it never hurts to have an extra book....Have a wonderful holiday...johnny

December 19, 2011, 03:00 PM	#1
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	About using smokeless in my 45-70 sharps I am going to be doing some testing of smokeless powder in my Pedersoli 45-70 sharps rifle...Getting tired of all the cleaning and such with the Goex powder... So I think I will try some of the Trailboss first..Bullet will be the Lyman cast 500 grain round nose of course...Only thing I would like to ask at this time is.. Do you think I will be needing some crimp on these loads...Back a long time I played around with Unique and a 416 gr.Cast bullet...But I can not remember if I crimped or not.. So any information you may have will be greatly appreciated....John

December 19, 2011, 03:06 PM	#2
overkill0084 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2010 Location: Northern, UT Posts: 1,162	I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about your setup. But this is where I would point you: http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bul.../dp/B004DWBKQY I'm 99% sure they have data in there that you can make use of. __________________ Cheers, Greg “At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.” — P.J. O’Rourke

December 19, 2011, 04:21 PM	#4
TomADC Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: San Diego County Posts: 795	Your going to load similar to trapdoor pressures, I shoot both Varget & 3031 in my Sharps I don't use a heavy crimp either. I did load some 405 gr bullets with 10 grs of Unique and at 50 yards load was super accurate with zero recoil. My Lyman cast bullet manual 4th edtion doesn't list a load for Trailboss but I didn't check Hodgdons website for any. Edit: I see Hodgdon website has loads for Trailboss (IMR) but 485 grs is the largest bullet listed. __________________ US Navy Retired,NRA Life Member,SASS member, Time magazine's Person of the Year 2006! Last edited by TomADC; December 19, 2011 at 04:31 PM.

December 19, 2011, 06:23 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Try AA5744. Accurate Arms says it was developed in large black powder cases. It shoots very well in 45/70 and with cast bullets in 30-30, 308, 30-06, and 303 Brit. It is not position sensitive, all my chronograph data was shot standing. I lowered the muzzle, dropped the round in, and raised the muzzle to shoot. 45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel 405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F Ave Vel = 1294 Std Dev = 14 ES = 40 Low = 1274 High = 1314 N = 15 405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1284 Std Dev = 23 ES = 80 Low = 1263 High = 1343 N = 12 405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR 24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F Ave Vel = 1323 Std Dev = 14 ES = 38 Low = 1307 High = 1345 N = 5 __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

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December 19, 2011, 03:15 PM	#3
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	I appreciate your kind reply,but Lyman does not offer too much about the crimping issue's...I have all their biiks but that one..I may have to buy it just for the read....I don't even cast my own bullets any more..Too much hassel for me..For the ammount I shot now it is just as cheap for me to buy a 100 or so...So maybe I will get some advice from those who have done it...

December 19, 2011, 05:48 PM	#5
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	You know,come to think of it I don't think there is a crimping groove in my bullets...I know there are several powders I can use..I was just think that maybe the one that offered the most case fill might be more accurate..?? Some where in my old list of note is a forumula for figureing out the load data for heav ier or lighter bullets...If I can find it I will share it with you guys..

December 19, 2011, 10:01 PM	#7
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	that is a beautiful rifle..real nice..

December 20, 2011, 07:57 AM	#8
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I have a Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 and I've been trying a LOT of different loads over the last year. I haven't found any where crimping did anything to improve accuracy. Being a single shot I don't see the need to crimp any loads. Having done a lot in research on this I have found a number of shooters/reloaders who don't crimp any loads but suggest removing any belling on the case mouth with the crimping die without actually creating a crimp. A number of my cast loads have the bullets seated out just "kissing" the rifeling and the bullets can't be crimped in the crimping grove. This is just my $.02. PS - TrailBoss has been extremely accurate in my gun but I miss having absolutely no recoil and almost no noise. Low pressure/velocity loads with 2400, Unique, and 4198 have produced excellent results. I'm getting ready to try RL7 which I've heard good reports on. I'm using mostly 405 grain cast and some 350 grain cast for the majority of my loading. Fun to shoot and deadly on deer. Good luck.

December 20, 2011, 09:49 AM	#9
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	NOSECONDBEST===Yeah I thought about the single shot aspect as well.But what I wondered about was getting a good powder burn,pressure,etc..You know maybe one or two loads might not be as tight as the other or what ever..Maybe this is not an issue...My thought was I would get a better MV with a slight crimp..Or maybe I am confusing the whole issue.. So I guess the best thing to do is just load and shoot and not worry about all that other BS......thanks john

December 21, 2011, 01:24 PM	#10
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Your crimp is gone as soon as the primer goes off. There is enough impulse pressure at that nano second to push the bullet into the rifling before the powder fully ignites. (A hotly debated topic in some places but I believe it's true. Ever have a round go off where the primer went off and the powder didn't ignite? I've seen it and the bullet ended up three inches inside the barrel). I've tried crimping vs no crimp and haven't seen a difference in grouping. Consistant neck tension is important.

December 21, 2011, 02:51 PM	#11
JT-AR-MG42 Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 555	I'll second Slamfire. 5744 is THE powder for your situation. You will be happy you tried it and will do no further searching. It is great with cast for me in cals 30-30 on up. And the bonus is just like the name - Accurate. I just take the flare off of single shot loads. JT

December 23, 2011, 09:49 AM	#12
savagelover Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2011 Location: Alpine,,NY Posts: 254	I don't know much about your setup. But this is where I would point you: http://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bul.../dp/B004DWBKQY I'm 99% sure they have data in there that you can make use of I ordered the book and thank you for the suggettion....guess it never hurts to have an extra book....Have a wonderful holiday...johnny