Is this pressure??

45romeo · January 17, 2008, 11:35 PM

.243 win, Savage 99A freshly cleaned, 42 gr H414, speer 70 gr TNT HP. CCI primer. I have 3 of 20 I shot that look like this. I didn't notice this until I was cleaning them up to reload again. This brass has been loaded a max of 4 times and never at max loads. What is causing this? Bullets seat real easy.

Thanks
45Romeo

rwilson452 · January 17, 2008, 11:51 PM

looks to me like too much lube when you resize. did they look like that before you fired them? did you clean all the lube off after you sized them?

45romeo · January 17, 2008, 11:56 PM

I don't know if it was like that before I fired them. I guess it could be too much lube, but I try to put just a film on. I don't believe I wiped em off after sizing. Are these still safe to use? I know they may not be as accurate, but safe?

Thanks

rwilson452 · January 18, 2008, 12:01 AM

clean any remaining lube from the case. yes as when you fire it it will straighten out. unless your shooting a real light load.

give the chamber of your rifle a good cleaning also.

45romeo · January 18, 2008, 12:10 AM

Thanks--I'll do that and be sure to be careful with the lube.

**Mal H** · January 18, 2008, 12:11 AM

As rwilson said, dents like that are usually caused by too much lube when resizing.

However, you said those were from a batch that had been fired. There should be no dents left after firing. Also, the dents look roughly the same for both cases, which is not normal for lube caused dents. I have no idea what would cause that in a fired case.

42 grains is on the light side, but not light enough to prevent fire forming the case.

mc223 · January 18, 2008, 12:27 AM

Looks like the case failed to obturate properly and some of the gas made it back to the case in the chamber. Not knowing the actual dimensions of the chamber, the brass could have been overworked in 4 loadings. 4 times loading may well have been 1 too many on that particular brass. I can not really tell what I see on the bottom photo, but it looks like sooting just in front of the dents.

clem · January 18, 2008, 02:51 AM

Take a look around the ejection port area of your rifle for brass marks. The brass could be hitting your rifle when it is ejected.

Tom Matiska · January 18, 2008, 03:21 AM

Assuming this happened after firing and not after resizing, then I’d build on mc223’s observation.

For that bullet weight in the 243, H414 is not too slow, but it is in the slower half of recommend powders. Mr Hodgdon’s 25th says start at 43.5 and max out at 47.5.

What I suspect you have is a combination of low and SLOW pressure. Unburned powder is blowing back past the neck of a case that hasn’t expanded against the chamber wall yet, and when it finally burns, it collapses the shoulder.

More H414 is my first call. Faster powder if you insist on light loads. More crimp or primer are also options.

firechicken · January 18, 2008, 08:39 AM

I've seen dents like that caused by partial case/head seperation, but I assume you'd have noticed the seperation also.

45romeo · January 18, 2008, 04:32 PM

I have noticed that the necks are really sooty after I fire them. Maybe the powder is too slow and/or not enough of it. I am going to get the Lee Factory Crimp die and start crimping this bullet. I just had the guy order me in some H414 but maybe I'll try something a bit faster. The Lee 2nd Ed manual show 42.0 gr H414 with 70 gr jacketed bullet as the starting load.
Any favorites on the powder for the .243win?

Thanks

rwilson452 · January 18, 2008, 05:34 PM

Some like 4831 I'm going to try 4895 this spring. I might look at H380 also.

Rangefinder · January 18, 2008, 06:11 PM

I fire a Rem 6mm (.243 cal with a little larger brass) with very similar load data(almost identical for all intents and purposes to this point) and performance thresholds that run very close to your .243. I've become a very big fan of H380--does a great job pushing everything from 55gr. Noslers through 95gr. Sierra FMJ/BT. Have a look that direction.

steve4102 · January 18, 2008, 06:16 PM

I would suspect not enough pressure. Your 42gr is a bare minimum according to Hodgdon and under minimum according a few others. Work your loads up to higher pressures and I think you find those dents will disappear.

45romeo · January 19, 2008, 11:18 PM

Ok went rabbit hunting again today and for some reason I decided to open my action. The shell that came out had the bullet clear inside the case.

Would this be dangerous I had shot that round??

I've had trouble feeding this bullet (speer tnt 70 hp) in this rifle before. (I've posted a thread on this). The bullet gets caught on the rim where the cartridge seats and if I "push", the bullet will go into the case. I am getting a crimping die to solve this. Plus I am going to do some work on the gun. In the mean time I have started shooting it as single shot and hand feeding a single shot into the chamber. So when this happened today the next load I tried to chamber was difficult. I felt that difficulty last weekend when these dents showed up and I had the same problem feeding a round. What I think happend is that when the bullet was pushed into the case it let some powder out into the chamber. When I put the next round in, there remained a small amount of powder there that made the dents upon firing. I have three cases that the dents look similar but each not as deep as the next. I think the dents were caused by a foreign substance (H414 powder) in the chamber.

45Romeo

Martyn4802 · January 20, 2008, 07:06 AM

There is something going on with your reloading. First, when bullets are seated, the case neck should hold the bullet, not allowing it to drop inside the case along with the powder. You are not sizing the case necks correctly. Check you sizing die to make sure it is set up properly in your loading tool. In sizing, the case neck is reduced in diameter when the case is fully in the die, with the loading tool ram all the way up. Then, as the case is with drawn from the die, the expander ball opens the neck up to the correct inside diameter to hold the bullet firmly. I think those dents in your case necks is caused by powder that comes out of your cases with sloppy seated bullets.
The sizing die should be installed in your loading tool so that when the ram is fully up, the bottom of the die should be against the shell holder. Then, lower the ram, and turn the die another quarter turn down, and lock the die in place. When the ram is now moved to its up position, extra force will be required to get it all the way up; that is the correct die set up. If your bullets still fall inside the case after sizing, there is something wrong with the die, or you are using the wrong die.
After you slove the case neck tension problem, increase your powder charge to the minimum stated in the manual. You are below minimum, which is not recommended.

Martyn

45romeo · January 20, 2008, 11:11 AM

I don't know what it is with the Speer TNT 70 gr jhp bullet? I loaded 100 rounds of sierra 60 gr hp varmiter without any problems. I have set up my die as described. It is RCBS FL die and the correct caliber. What I have started doing is capping the brass then removing the capper and sizing the brass without the capper. That way the expander ball doesn't spread out the neck and it seems to hold the bullet pretty good. The expander ball measures only 1/2 thou to 1.5 thou less than the bullet? I am going back to the sierra bullet and changing to H380 powder. I am also using a LEE challenger press. It doesn't "cam over" and I think that an upgrade in this department is coming.

45Romeo

TexasSeaRay · January 20, 2008, 11:54 AM

Quote:

I am also using a LEE challenger press. It doesn't "cam over" and I think that an upgrade in this department is coming.

Your press isn't the problem--I've loaded over a thousand small to mid-range centerfire rifle cartridges on this exact same press, from .243 and .270 to the thirty calibres. Zero problems.

If your bullet is not staying seated, that's the fault of the dies. And while rare, you could have a bad die.

Have you taken calipers to the (Sierra) bullets (as well as weighed them)? Again, while rare, you may have a slightly smaller caliber bullet than what the box label says you do.

And, I agree with the others regarding slow-burning powders and light loads--rarely a good combination.

Jeff

flashhole · January 20, 2008, 04:10 PM

You stated the necks are really sooty. Yes, you are getting blowback and that could easily cause the cases to dent in the manner they did. Crimping will help eliminate blowback because it gives the powder more time to ignite in the case. A hotter primer will help too. One thing you might also do is clean the inside of the case neck with a bore brush. I chuck mine up with a Lee Lock Stud in a cordless drill. It works real well. This may give a little more neck tension when you use your sizing die. You had others advise using a faster powder, with light weight bullets that is sage advice.

Yes, had you fired the round where the bullet had been pushed into the case, it could have been very ugly for you.

Art Eatman · January 20, 2008, 05:58 PM

I've had excellent results with the 70-grain Hornady Spire Point ahead of 40.0 grains of 3031. (Start at 38.0 and work up.) Remchester LR primers; don't need magnum primers. 70-grain Speer oughta work just as well, probably.

RCBS dies; neck size only. I always chamfer the inside of the mouth of the case neck before loading.

Art

January 18, 2008, 08:39 AM	#10
firechicken Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2006 Location: Savannah, MO Posts: 224	I've seen dents like that caused by partial case/head seperation, but I assume you'd have noticed the seperation also. __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke

January 18, 2008, 04:32 PM	#11
45romeo Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 26	sooting? I have noticed that the necks are really sooty after I fire them. Maybe the powder is too slow and/or not enough of it. I am going to get the Lee Factory Crimp die and start crimping this bullet. I just had the guy order me in some H414 but maybe I'll try something a bit faster. The Lee 2nd Ed manual show 42.0 gr H414 with 70 gr jacketed bullet as the starting load. Any favorites on the powder for the .243win? Thanks

January 18, 2008, 05:34 PM	#12
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	243 powder Some like 4831 I'm going to try 4895 this spring. I might look at H380 also.

January 18, 2008, 06:11 PM	#13
Rangefinder Senior Member Join Date: August 4, 2005 Posts: 2,017	I fire a Rem 6mm (.243 cal with a little larger brass) with very similar load data(almost identical for all intents and purposes to this point) and performance thresholds that run very close to your .243. I've become a very big fan of H380--does a great job pushing everything from 55gr. Noslers through 95gr. Sierra FMJ/BT. Have a look that direction. __________________ "Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians.

January 19, 2008, 11:18 PM	#15
45romeo Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 26	Here's what I think happened Ok went rabbit hunting again today and for some reason I decided to open my action. The shell that came out had the bullet clear inside the case. Would this be dangerous I had shot that round?? I've had trouble feeding this bullet (speer tnt 70 hp) in this rifle before. (I've posted a thread on this). The bullet gets caught on the rim where the cartridge seats and if I "push", the bullet will go into the case. I am getting a crimping die to solve this. Plus I am going to do some work on the gun. In the mean time I have started shooting it as single shot and hand feeding a single shot into the chamber. So when this happened today the next load I tried to chamber was difficult. I felt that difficulty last weekend when these dents showed up and I had the same problem feeding a round. What I think happend is that when the bullet was pushed into the case it let some powder out into the chamber. When I put the next round in, there remained a small amount of powder there that made the dents upon firing. I have three cases that the dents look similar but each not as deep as the next. I think the dents were caused by a foreign substance (H414 powder) in the chamber. 45Romeo

January 17, 2008, 11:51 PM	#2
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	looks to me like too much lube when you resize. did they look like that before you fired them? did you clean all the lube off after you sized them?

January 17, 2008, 11:56 PM	#3
45romeo Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 26	I don't know if it was like that before I fired them. I guess it could be too much lube, but I try to put just a film on. I don't believe I wiped em off after sizing. Are these still safe to use? I know they may not be as accurate, but safe? Thanks

January 18, 2008, 12:01 AM	#4
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	clean any remaining lube from the case. yes as when you fire it it will straighten out. unless your shooting a real light load. give the chamber of your rifle a good cleaning also.

January 18, 2008, 12:10 AM	#5
45romeo Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 26	Thanks--I'll do that and be sure to be careful with the lube.

January 18, 2008, 12:11 AM	#6
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	As rwilson said, dents like that are usually caused by too much lube when resizing. However, you said those were from a batch that had been fired. There should be no dents left after firing. Also, the dents look roughly the same for both cases, which is not normal for lube caused dents. I have no idea what would cause that in a fired case. 42 grains is on the light side, but not light enough to prevent fire forming the case.

January 18, 2008, 12:27 AM	#7
mc223 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Location: n/w Wisconsin Posts: 365	Looks like the case failed to obturate properly and some of the gas made it back to the case in the chamber. Not knowing the actual dimensions of the chamber, the brass could have been overworked in 4 loadings. 4 times loading may well have been 1 too many on that particular brass. I can not really tell what I see on the bottom photo, but it looks like sooting just in front of the dents.

January 18, 2008, 02:51 AM	#8
clem Junior member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Arizona Territory Posts: 847	Take a look around the ejection port area of your rifle for brass marks. The brass could be hitting your rifle when it is ejected.

January 18, 2008, 03:21 AM	#9
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	Assuming this happened after firing and not after resizing, then I’d build on mc223’s observation. For that bullet weight in the 243, H414 is not too slow, but it is in the slower half of recommend powders. Mr Hodgdon’s 25th says start at 43.5 and max out at 47.5. What I suspect you have is a combination of low and SLOW pressure. Unburned powder is blowing back past the neck of a case that hasn’t expanded against the chamber wall yet, and when it finally burns, it collapses the shoulder. More H414 is my first call. Faster powder if you insist on light loads. More crimp or primer are also options.

January 18, 2008, 06:16 PM	#14
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	I would suspect not enough pressure. Your 42gr is a bare minimum according to Hodgdon and under minimum according a few others. Work your loads up to higher pressures and I think you find those dents will disappear.

January 20, 2008, 07:06 AM	#16
Martyn4802 Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2007 Location: Grayling, Michigan Posts: 737	There is something going on with your reloading. First, when bullets are seated, the case neck should hold the bullet, not allowing it to drop inside the case along with the powder. You are not sizing the case necks correctly. Check you sizing die to make sure it is set up properly in your loading tool. In sizing, the case neck is reduced in diameter when the case is fully in the die, with the loading tool ram all the way up. Then, as the case is with drawn from the die, the expander ball opens the neck up to the correct inside diameter to hold the bullet firmly. I think those dents in your case necks is caused by powder that comes out of your cases with sloppy seated bullets. The sizing die should be installed in your loading tool so that when the ram is fully up, the bottom of the die should be against the shell holder. Then, lower the ram, and turn the die another quarter turn down, and lock the die in place. When the ram is now moved to its up position, extra force will be required to get it all the way up; that is the correct die set up. If your bullets still fall inside the case after sizing, there is something wrong with the die, or you are using the wrong die. After you slove the case neck tension problem, increase your powder charge to the minimum stated in the manual. You are below minimum, which is not recommended. Martyn __________________ US Army Retired NRA Benefactor Life Member JPFO

January 20, 2008, 11:11 AM	#17
45romeo Member Join Date: December 26, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 26	I don't know what it is with the Speer TNT 70 gr jhp bullet? I loaded 100 rounds of sierra 60 gr hp varmiter without any problems. I have set up my die as described. It is RCBS FL die and the correct caliber. What I have started doing is capping the brass then removing the capper and sizing the brass without the capper. That way the expander ball doesn't spread out the neck and it seems to hold the bullet pretty good. The expander ball measures only 1/2 thou to 1.5 thou less than the bullet? I am going back to the sierra bullet and changing to H380 powder. I am also using a LEE challenger press. It doesn't "cam over" and I think that an upgrade in this department is coming. 45Romeo

January 20, 2008, 04:10 PM	#19
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	You stated the necks are really sooty. Yes, you are getting blowback and that could easily cause the cases to dent in the manner they did. Crimping will help eliminate blowback because it gives the powder more time to ignite in the case. A hotter primer will help too. One thing you might also do is clean the inside of the case neck with a bore brush. I chuck mine up with a Lee Lock Stud in a cordless drill. It works real well. This may give a little more neck tension when you use your sizing die. You had others advise using a faster powder, with light weight bullets that is sage advice. Yes, had you fired the round where the bullet had been pushed into the case, it could have been very ugly for you. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

January 20, 2008, 05:58 PM	#20
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I've had excellent results with the 70-grain Hornady Spire Point ahead of 40.0 grains of 3031. (Start at 38.0 and work up.) Remchester LR primers; don't need magnum primers. 70-grain Speer oughta work just as well, probably. RCBS dies; neck size only. I always chamfer the inside of the mouth of the case neck before loading. Art