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May 25, 2013, 01:11 PM | #101 |
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Re: ending threat just by presentation?
Deepcreek, every single person who has shot another in self defense has confessed to committing a felony. If you kill a man in self defense then you must first confess that you have indeed committed homicide (a felony), only after that can you be acquitted after it is ruled justified or you are no-billed.
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May 25, 2013, 01:31 PM | #102 | ||
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If they do not believe their actions to have been both felonious and provable, the persons whom the armed citizen claims to have presented an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm will likely have no cogent reason to not sign a complaint. Quote:
A person who has drawn a weapon and who did not report it will not come across as a good guy. You want to report it, and you want to be the first to do so. |
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May 25, 2013, 03:03 PM | #103 |
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deepcreek, you are suggesting a fight with Murphy.
Murphy says that if you don't report the incident, the bad guys, other witnesses, or some recording device (security camera, trail cam, smart phone) will record a limited view of what happened. So, while you suggest that there could be negative outcomes to reporting, you should consider the relative odds of negative outcomes if somebody else makes the report. I learned as a kid that things would only get worse if my parents heard about the problem from somebody other than me. As a Navy officer, I can attest that when my guys reported having done something questionable, themselves, the repercussions (if any) were less severe than they would have been had somebody else reported them. If nothing else, the course of action you seem to advocate could suggest guilty conscience to a prosecutor, or worse yet a jury. |
May 25, 2013, 05:24 PM | #104 | |||
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The court systems are designed to get people to take plea bargains and pay fines. If you want a jury trail get ready for a very risky, expensive, long and stressful journey. Quote:
Most decent lawyers will tell you not to go talk to police, detectives and prosecutors without them if you are involved in a felony case, I would feel very worried about making statements and getting interviewed without decent legal advice. Just things I would consider before I call 911 and started blabbing away. Quote:
The only thing I am advocating is to be very careful and explore all options and strategies. Fights can be life altering events nothing to take lightly. |
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May 25, 2013, 07:52 PM | #105 |
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If calling 911 isn't going to help you, neither is a weapon.
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May 25, 2013, 08:50 PM | #106 | |
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If you have done nothing wrong and you have nothing to hide I would advise not to alienate yourself by seeking a lawyer automatically and invoking your right to council without careful thought and consideration. Only a lawyer will advise to speak to him first. In fact, I bet you would find more lawyers than you think that would advise you to cooperate if you are not guilty. Public opinion and LE opinion can get you in more trouble than any lawyer can get you out of. Trust me, you want them on your side first if at all possible and automatically invoking right to council is not always your best bet. My brother was brought up on murder charges at 17 years of age ( mom still has the newspaper clipping) because my mom and dad got him a lawyer and would not allow him to make a statement. If it weren't for detectives sent back for a second look of the crime scene he would have been in prison. They found the ricochet off of a pole that my brother claimed was there. It was proof he shot into the air and not in the back of thief.
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May 25, 2013, 08:59 PM | #107 |
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I've heard it from a cop-- it's not just lawyers.
I've known cops on both sides of this argument. There is a school of thought that says you always need an attorney to talk to cops, but there is also a school of thought that doesn't believe that all cops (or police departments as a whole) are out to get you. Sometimes you genuinely need a cop. If you need a gun, I would think chances are good that a cop would be more help than harm.
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May 25, 2013, 10:31 PM | #108 | |||||||||||||||
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May 25, 2013, 10:34 PM | #109 | |
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From about 15' I spun and put my hand under my shirttail and said "Don't! I'll pop you! Drop it!" He did and walked off. I can't post hwat he was saying as he came up and as he left. A few folk crossed the street. I follow the wife into a store and a few minutes later hear hollering. He's at it again with the cllub. Maybe I should have gotten it? I stayed clear and took a couple of pix. Nobody called PD. Everybody he accosted took off. I think it was a mental case??? I dunno. I'm sure it would have been a good shoot, but who wants that? I just wanted peace. He tried stopping a couple of cars too. Not all threats, or potential attacks are reported. I'd bet less than 1% are reported.
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May 26, 2013, 10:48 AM | #110 | |||
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"evidence" has to be collected by law enforcement they don't always have things to collect. Not everyone lives under surveillance cameras. Quote:
Lets not forget that the internet is a global platform and not just stucco strip malls in the US. A winning self defense strategy that works in a Santa Barbra parking lot might not be so winning in the slums of Detroit, the backwoods of the Ozarks or in many other countries. Many people have lost trust of law enforcement and the legal system due to corruption and abuse some places it might not be safe to call them. Some people might have to deal with the attackers after the police write on the paper and leave in places where people have no respect for others that cannot deal with their own problems. |
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May 26, 2013, 11:26 AM | #111 |
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Deepcreek, have you ever heard anyone who is knowledgeable of use of force law, the justice system, and legal precedent responsibly recommend that the defender not be the first to report an incident?
In one of the best courses on use of force law, the instructor recommends that, if one should find it necessary to display a weapon in self defense and be unable to safely remain while contacting law enforcement, he or she should head immediately to the nearest police station if the location is known, or if that is not possible, to a well lit safe place from which to call. The reasons are compelling. For one thing, as Frank Ettin has pointed out, flight is an indication of potential guilt. For another, the person who calls first will be known as the complainant. If the defender is not first, he or she will be identified as the suspect. Not good. Last edited by OldMarksman; May 26, 2013 at 12:51 PM. Reason: Remove unintentional quotation enclosure. |
May 26, 2013, 01:02 PM | #112 | |||||
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May 26, 2013, 02:32 PM | #113 | |
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Someone was saying earlier most incidents in their area are unreported “I'd bet less than 1% are reported.” Which is common in some areas. So where is the “evidence” if 2 people in the dark face off decide not to fight go separate ways? No “items” no “ testimony” no evidence. Unless you want to call the police and say "I threatened someone with a gun" please come collect my testimony as evidence. Last edited by deepcreek; May 26, 2013 at 02:39 PM. |
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May 26, 2013, 02:45 PM | #114 |
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^^ Not to mention this is covered in every CCW class I have ever encountered as far as calling or making an attempt to contact the police.
Let the police show up because they were nearby and heard the shots or were called by someone else while you were in the process of leaving. It will not go well for you at least until it is sorted out and still maybe not then. Leaving is as bad as picking up shell casings or moving a body because the people involved are part of the evidence. >>>>back to "ending threat by presentation" >>>>>>> Great topic!
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May 26, 2013, 02:47 PM | #115 |
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No, "evidence" does not have to be "collected." A person's testimony is evidence. It can be the testimony of persons involved, or the police. One example of each:
1) As an SD shooter, if I'm charged, I'll likely have to testify as to the facts necessary to establish my defense. My words are evidence. 2) If I decline to call the police, the police will likely testify that it appears that: (a) I did not call 911; and (2) I left the scene without reporting the incident. Their words are evidence. 3) If I show my weapon, the BG might leave the scene, then he may call the police to try to "beat me to the punch." Alternatively, he might be stopped for speeding as he flees the scene. When asked why he was speeding, he might say that some guy pointed a gun at him and scared him. The police officer, being a naturally curious sort, might follow up. The BG's words are evidence. The court will not care what ordinary citizens believe "evidence" to be. The rules of evidence tell us that testimony counts as "evidence."
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May 26, 2013, 03:09 PM | #116 |
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As I have said before.... Sometimes it's not as much what you do as how you explain it. If someone threatened me enough to force me into using deadly force, and I frew my firearm with the intent to use it against the person. Upon seeing that I was armed and willing to defend myself the person stopped what ever he was doing, or ran away I'm no longer justified in using deadly force I put my gun away.
Did I menace, threaten, or display the gun?...nope my intent was to use justified force, but the guy changed his mind and so did I and put the gun away... It's really that simple. |
May 26, 2013, 06:24 PM | #117 | |
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If a robber runs back to his crack house hides in the basement and is not to be found their is no testimony from him because one can not be collected. |
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May 26, 2013, 07:00 PM | #118 |
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I don't think I've ever seen someone work so hard to dig a hole he/she couldn't possibly dig out of.
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May 26, 2013, 07:14 PM | #119 | |
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May 26, 2013, 07:23 PM | #120 | |
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All self defense situations are different. You can follow one strategy that works a large percentage of the time and it will probably be a decent bet. Personally I will weigh the situation I am in and make a strategy as things unfold. But I am not hard wired to speed dial 911 at every confrontation. I don't like court and I try to avoid it when possible. If speed dial 911 is your mantra for every confrontational situation more power to you. |
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May 26, 2013, 07:53 PM | #121 | ||
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The part quoted above is not "all you're saying." Several pages ago, you wrote this: Quote:
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May 26, 2013, 08:06 PM | #122 | ||||||||
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But no one put any numbers to those speculations, so you pulled the "1%" out of the air. And since this is just a matter of unsupported speculation (although not unreasonable) we can not really have any good idea of what the actual numbers might be. Furthermore, what the number of such incidents which go unreported might be is somewhat beside the point.
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What's important for us, here, is that others who might be reading this thread understand that (1) your opinions in this regard aren't well thought out; (2) your opinions in this regard aren't necessarily well supported considering the realities of the law, the legal system and police procedure; and (3) doing things as you propose doing them might get one into a lot of trouble. All opinions are not equal.
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May 27, 2013, 08:10 AM | #123 | |||
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Why is that such a bad proposal ? Because it does not agree with yours ? Quote:
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May 27, 2013, 09:09 AM | #124 |
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deepcreek,
Your advice about selectively not calling 911 borders on advocating criminal activity. It is socially irresponsible. It flies counter to the advice given by self-defense instructors, attorneys, and investigators. The only scenario where such advice could conceivably make sense (assuming one was justified in the use of deadly force) would be in the case of a known corrupt police department and court system. A friend who resides overseas had his local police chief (in that country) give him the advice you are giving, but he is in a country where the foreigner is always wrong, and where even those who were justified in self-defense are expected to pay a blood debt. Your concept, as applied in the US, is at best foolish and socially irresponsible, and at worst criminal. Why do you keep digging yourself deeper? |
May 27, 2013, 09:20 AM | #125 | ||
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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