February 21, 2010, 10:16 PM | #526 |
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We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder and handling recoil better. Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself. That makes a neat slug gun..Ed
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ED HUBEL |
February 22, 2010, 12:06 PM | #527 |
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Slug Gun
Did you try cutting the case down at the shoulder to see what velocities you would get without having to expand the necks?
I havent read all of the posts, sorry if this was asked,heck there are so many..... I am not a reloader, just wondered if that was also feasable, or if it didnt improve much over a 3" Thanks for your hard work. Makes me want to shoot my High Standard Bolt 12GA. mark |
February 24, 2010, 01:25 PM | #528 |
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We have used cases we put rims on and the RMC brass cases,
cut back to 3"- 2.75"- 2.5" and velocity goes down accordingly. Some guys have bought 3" RMC cases and used them in NEF Ultras, and Savage 210s. with good results comparable to 3.5" plastic case loads. Magtech makes a 2.5" brass case that guys like to use in older guns and 2 3/4" guns.Long case advantage is greater velocity at low pressures as there is more room for cushion wads as well as more powder.Ed
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February 27, 2010, 11:54 PM | #529 |
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The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now, but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings number of the barrel is 560H90. In the meantime Remington has come out with their SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed
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March 2, 2010, 12:37 PM | #530 |
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Ed,
I registered on this forum just now specifically to ask you a couple questions. I've read all the posts on all of the forums I could find where you were talking about the 12FH, 499HE, 700HE, etc. I have to say that I'm almost more impressed with your ability to post your developments across such a wide range of forums for so long than with the actual development. That is saying a lot since I'm thoroughly impressed with your developments. So here are the questions: 1) I talked to E.R. Shaw about their 12 and 20 gauge barrels. They only offer uncontoured blanks, but the price is great. I think you used one on your Savage 210. Was the outside concentric enough with the bore that you didn't have to turn it down any? If I could leave it heavy and just thread it, that would be ideal for me. 2) I am waiting on written clarification from the ATF, but since you've been through this with the 700HE, you may know the answer. My intention is to build a cartridge using a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs case blown out straight to hold a .615-.620 dia (20 gauge) projectile. Since this isn't a shotgun round, I'll need to get a DD exemption from the ATF. No problem. Once I'm done, I intend to build a rifle on a Mauser style action using a Shaw 20 gauge rifled allow barrel. What I'll end up with is essentially a rimmless 3" or 3.25" 20 gauge bolt action magazine rifle. The question is this: Once I get a DD exemption for the cartrdige, do I then ALSO have to submit the rifle for exemption? It seems redundant, but I want to be one the safe side. Thanks again for all the exciting work you do. Jpt |
March 6, 2010, 04:47 PM | #531 |
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New Project - ? subsonic 12G FH
Hi Ed,
I have been following your thread for sometime, and like everyone else am very impressed with what you have done and appreciate you sharing your information. I was so inspired that I purchased a bolt action 12G to start my own project. I am about to purchase a heavy rifled barrel and at this point I want to ask some advice. My intention is a little bit different. I am a fan of the supressed / silenced rifles such as the Delisle carbine, and of the whipser series of subsonic wildcats, and the .510 is interesting. Imagine it at .710 I intend to load a standard 3" 12g to fire a very heavy projectile at subsonic. 1000 -1200grains or heavier. It would be a tapered profile. The barrel would not have to be very long , say 16 inches, or even 12! (legal inimum here). I would attach a suppressor on the end of the barrel. I would not taper the barrel to keep it heavy, to help with recoil. The weight of the suppressor would help. So just a couple of questions: 1) I assume that as my aim is subsonic I would be ok with a standard length cartridge, assuming the heavy bullet would be longer also? 2) Any advice on powder and loads with standard or even short cartridge to get subsonic speeds. 3) What twist rate would you recommend? I know you use 1:20-22, but do you think say a 1:8 - 1:10 might be advisable for accuracy, but likely would be custom rather than off the shelf. Cheers Kevin |
March 6, 2010, 10:40 PM | #532 |
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beastly looking gun
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March 9, 2010, 01:24 AM | #533 |
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I like that thumbhole stock/ For me could be all
wood and bluing. jpt- I answered you on Greybeards forum. Main thing is that a Gibbs case won't do .620" bullet. Ok my 12ga is a.729" barrel. Pacnor 1-20 twist like mine will do ok. Min bbl length shotgun is 18"-- unless you register it as a NFA weapon and pay 200 buck tax.If a suppressor will have to be NFA. You can do subsonic with 3" case. Use about 30gr Blue dot slow shotgun powder with a 1000gr slug. I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action. We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction. Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough. Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time, contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring.. I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard to find and costly.. Ed
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March 10, 2010, 02:50 AM | #534 |
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Subsonic
Hi Ed
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I am not in the USA, I am in New Zealand ( a small country where they make movies like Avatar and Lord of the Rings) . We have some restrictive gun laws but the minimum bbl for shotguns in NZ is 12 inch not 18. We are also allowed suppressors, as our focus is not self defence but hunting. There is no NFA to worry about, just no autos or pistols. I was thinking of 0.729, 12 inch and a 1;20. I am glad 3 inch would be sufficent for subsonic, as I can use a standard breach. I guess any faster twist than 1;20 would be counter productive. The good news is that at 12 inch could get 2 barrels out of a blank. Thanks again. will get cracking and send some photos soon. Cheers Kevin |
March 12, 2010, 11:27 PM | #535 |
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I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster. Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is braced to wall supports and benches behind. You can see the expanders laid out on the press brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid out, that fit everything from 10ga down to my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large 4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed
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March 17, 2010, 10:41 PM | #536 |
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Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think. Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED
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March 23, 2010, 10:31 PM | #537 |
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Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with 10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding case out straight, making the 4.050" long 10ga case.ED
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ED HUBEL Last edited by HUBEL458; March 23, 2010 at 10:38 PM. |
March 28, 2010, 10:20 PM | #538 |
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We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700" heavy thick barrels. The first was our 12ga FH long case. The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case. Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock, and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad. Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed
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April 2, 2010, 11:06 PM | #539 |
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Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing. I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed. Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger, Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed
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April 9, 2010, 03:49 PM | #540 |
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about the 12 gauge from hell
could you give me a list of all the supplies needed to build one? and how to double or triple a recoil pad for better protection? cause I'm planning on starting to get into gun collecting, and I'd like to have a 12gafh added to my (currently small) collection. list them by part # if possible so I can just look them up and buy them and have the local metal smiths do the rest, and how much does your ammo cost per 10?
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April 11, 2010, 11:40 PM | #541 |
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Depends on which gun you want to put it in.
Lik if a NEF, buy a NEF 12ga Ultra slug gun, have your smith ream chamber to 3.5", order brass 3.5" cases from RMC, 10 for $100. You can also shoot 3.5" plastic and get real strong loads. plastic Cases for reloading are 17 bucks primed for a hundred. Get a BPI catalog so you can see what is available. Like roll crimper, different slugs, seals wads, sabots. To double up pad I just get a thick slip on Limbsaver at gunshop and put it over the original pad. I add more weight to the butt using extra holes in butt filled with weight.Ultra has one weight in the butt from the factory. I add more. Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and falling block action locked down fired off some blank type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up. I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer, as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok. For loads I have wads to take up space above powder. Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about 1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug. I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be using THE PRIMERS OUT OF KILN CASES at about same price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed
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April 21, 2010, 10:40 PM | #542 |
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Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads for testing operation. Hardly no recoil, like a heavy, beefed up blank load, could go much higher with that light of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle blast and the gun shooting from the side, using heavier slugs in a week or so. In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot with 2000 gr slug. Ed
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April 22, 2010, 07:33 AM | #543 |
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Now I know why your pictures always have a slightly reddish tint, they are blushing because you used 4bore, 760 gr ball and no recoil in the same sentence.
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I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying. |
April 23, 2010, 01:15 AM | #544 |
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Serious recoil will come at normal weight slugs for 4 bore,
1600-2000 gr, and velocity gets above 1500 fps.ED
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ED HUBEL |
April 23, 2010, 11:08 AM | #545 |
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Any youtube videos of firing this Beast? =-/
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April 24, 2010, 10:31 PM | #546 |
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We will have a video 4bore on YT in couple weeks.
Have one therer of 12ga FH atomising 6gal pail water. It is called Grandpa's Cannon. Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball, using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17, total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and 20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases, with shotgun primers, and with that light projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is good beginning bullet weight for early testing. I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the speeds to give about same energy. I won't load heavier until I get another stock like one I have that is full width. Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases, Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED
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April 25, 2010, 10:48 PM | #547 |
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That load above makes my teeth hurt just thinking of touching that trigger, and I'm not even nowhere near recoil sensitive.
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April 26, 2010, 02:09 AM | #548 |
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heh heh dinosaur hunter
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April 26, 2010, 03:18 AM | #549 |
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The gun is 28 lbs, thumbhole stock and that light
of slug don't recoil much. Normal weight 16-1700gr slug will get serious recoil.Ed
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April 30, 2010, 10:36 PM | #550 |
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Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk. Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases still didn't expand. Running about 23-25,000 psi. The light ball load above about 16,000. Ed
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