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Old November 4, 2010, 04:00 AM   #1
Edmond
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Caracal pistols. BEWARE!

You better use eye protection. I heard this morning of a shooter who had a case flying straight to the eye like it happened to me. He was fortunately wearing protective goggles.

That came after I have had two calls from people who have tested the pistols they just received and experienced the same malfunctions I experienced with the batch of pistols I tested..


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Old November 4, 2010, 05:01 AM   #2
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It is a common problem for people to have spent casings hit them in the face. Usually, the problem is due to the gun torquing during recoil and a case that usually would go over the right shoulder ends up hitting the shooter in the face. As such, the problem is not with the gun, but the shooter.

What malfunctions are you talking about?
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Old November 4, 2010, 05:55 AM   #3
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There you go http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425285
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Old November 4, 2010, 06:00 AM   #4
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Gun torquing?



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Old November 4, 2010, 10:20 AM   #5
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Salut, Edmond

How exactly did you fix that problem with yours? I read that you did something to the extractor.
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Old November 4, 2010, 12:15 PM   #6
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Interesting. The steyr m1 did the same thing to me. But eye protection should be a given!!!!!
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Old November 4, 2010, 12:31 PM   #7
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I've never heard of that being a shooter error, suppose it could be torquing.
In my case, when it occurs it's a matter of adjusting the extractor.

Worked with Springfield GI & a Colt WWI last year, both pinged me in the forehead occasionally. Worked with two 10mms (one Colt & one non-Colt) & a Lightweight Colt GM since then, no forehead pinging.
My own 1911s, Glocks, etc. don't ping me.

Other test pistols over the years occasionally have.
I don't torque.

I would think that pistol seriously needs some adjustment.
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Old November 4, 2010, 01:14 PM   #8
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I was always told that it is a result of extractor or recoil spring.

Quote:
Double Naught Spy
It is a common problem for people to have spent casings hit them in the face. Usually, the problem is due to the gun torquing during recoil and a case that usually would go over the right shoulder ends up hitting the shooter in the face. As such, the problem is not with the gun, but the shooter.

What malfunctions are you talking about?
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Old November 4, 2010, 02:42 PM   #9
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We'll see if the American batch exhibits the same behavior on Saturday... I'll be sure to check back in and let everyone know.
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Old November 4, 2010, 03:01 PM   #10
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Wow, I have caught casings in my face few times before myself, but not with so much force that it would crack the lenses in glasses
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Old November 4, 2010, 06:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
I've never heard of that being a shooter error, suppose it could be torquing.
In my case, when it occurs it's a matter of adjusting the extractor.
We actually video'd shooters that had problems with brass hitting them in the face. Their guns were ejecting brass high and right so long as the gun was upright. When the shooter let the gun torque in his/her hand and rise from recoil, the case still ejected the same way from the gun, only since the gun is turned, the face is then in the trajectory of the case.

One of the easiest ways to verify the problem is by having an experienced shooter fire the gun...sort of like people who want their sights adjusted because the gun shoots low and left...when it really doesn't.

Here is a good example with pics...http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ss+face+torque
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Old November 4, 2010, 10:06 PM   #12
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Not saying it can't happen, but I'd still think it's more likely to be gun error than shooter error.
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Old November 4, 2010, 10:14 PM   #13
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Your saying the gun torques so dramatically and quickly that it causes the brass to hit guy in the eye. I'd have to see that. Do you have one of those videos handy?

The guys grip looks firm and high. I doubt he is letting the gun buck too much.
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Old November 5, 2010, 02:58 AM   #14
Edmond
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I ranked 4th in IPSC Grand Prix de France 2002 (Revolver class). I assume I have a bit of experience in handling a pistol..
Fairly easy to see on posted pictures that the Caracal in my hand torques as it wants.
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Old November 5, 2010, 05:21 AM   #15
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Very intresting would like to see more reports of other shooters shooting same gun
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Old November 5, 2010, 06:18 AM   #16
Edmond
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Me too.
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Old November 5, 2010, 06:43 AM   #17
Double Naught Spy
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As I noted, there is an easy test. Have another shooter or shooters work with the gun and see if they have the same problem or not.

Quote:
Fairly easy to see on posted pictures that the Caracal in my hand torques as it wants.
Fairly easy to see that the cases aren't hitting you in the face.
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Old November 5, 2010, 07:41 AM   #18
Edmond
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"Fairly easy to see that the cases aren't hitting you in the face. "

Yup, I am not someone important enough to have paparazzis photographying every second.

Looks like you just called me a liar, do I mistake?

Last edited by Edmond; November 5, 2010 at 07:51 AM.
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Old November 5, 2010, 08:32 AM   #19
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I know nothing about these particular pistols. I've had a 1911 slap spent cartridges to the forehead with enough force to draw blood. The first thing I would do to a 1911 is to see if a lighter recoil spring helps. Mainspring and ejector are also possibilities.
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Old November 5, 2010, 09:16 AM   #20
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He's not calling you a liar, Edmond - he is saying that unbeknownst to you, the gun was torquing in your hand those times that the cases were hitting you in the face. I've experienced that phenomena with a few other handguns in the past, but it's been a long while - to be honest, I'm not sure if I would blame the gun or the grip (I never really thought about it at the time). Either way, we don't need to turn this thread into a dogfight over inconsequential speculation.

The moral of the story is, multiple shooters that Edmond knows have experienced the "brass to the face" phenomena when dealing with the Caracal.

Edmond, I'm curious what exactly you did to the extractor to remedy this? You mentioned previously that you got your pistol back on the straight and narrow with a little polish work or something? Care to elaborate?

Also, PM sent - I have a few additional questions...
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Old November 5, 2010, 09:39 AM   #21
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I don't think he was calling you a liar, Mona Mi.

I believe he was stating that when this happens OFTEN times with LESS experienced shooters it is from them not supporting the gun firmly enough.

I think from those posted pics we can tell your stance and grip are not the problem. It looks like that pistol like to eject brass high toward the rear and slightly to the right. That explains the cases hitting you in the face.

Have you tries using different types of ammo? It is possible that it will eject different types of cases (steel instead of brass) at a slightyly different angle.

Good Luck.
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Old November 5, 2010, 09:46 AM   #22
Edmond
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A french shooter has contacted me after reading one of the threads on the web and wanted me to correct his problem.
I answered I do not want to void any warranty by tweaking his pistol. He received cases in the face and one hit severely the goggles he was wearing.
The serial number falls in the batch of pistols I received so I was not surprised, I named the number before he did.

He mailed to Caracal and was called back within an hour by a french consultant asking him to bring back the pistol ASAP to the gunshop and instructions were given to compensate him.

I tell you in the PM how I tweaked it, anybody knowing how to tune a 1911 immediately understands what's going on.
I tuned mine but I refuse to do so with customer's pistols for liability reasons.
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Old November 5, 2010, 09:55 AM   #23
Edmond
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@ EdInk,
I posted in various threads the details of my testing, ammunition brands and types. All were premium quality from reputable manufacturer and identified lots.

He stated that one does not see brass hitting my face on pictutres hence implying I was a liar.

Still frames of you tube posted videos show the pistol ejects towards the shooters face.

Some accused me publicly of being a liar, writing they shot hundred of rounds without any problem, that it ejected with a 90° angle to the right.

Still waiting for precision about type and brand of ammo.
One even stated he used the pistol during an eastern european competition and I was a liar. I found pictures and videos of the said competition online but could not copy them because they were in Flash. Shows that it ejects toward the shooter's face.

To write,shoot straight and speak the truth is my motto.
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Old November 8, 2010, 12:41 PM   #24
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Well, I took the Caracal to the range this weekend and fed it a variety of ammunition, and I'm happy to say that all 300 rounds followed a consistent and normal ejection pattern. There were 8 of us that shot the pistol total, and degree of firearms proficiency ranged from experienced to first time shooters. We also took along a brand new S&W M&P9, and brass ejection was identical with the two pistols - rearward and to the right, but no where near the shooter or his face.

I wonder, Edmond, if it isn't something particular to your batch of pistols? Then again, I'm just one guy with one gun - nothing that even approaches an extensive test of the overall brand. These guns will start hitting dealers within a week or two, and will be in more shooters' hands soon - I'm sure a good number of range reports are forthcoming...

I'm probably going to repost my review on the forums I frequent, including this one, if only to get more exposure and reactions from other people to flesh out any questions I forgot to address and to get ideas for further evaluation of this pistol. In the meantime, the original review can be read on SteyrClub if anyone is interested:

http://www.steyrclub.com/vb/threads/...racal-F-Review

The owner of SteyrClub just put up a review of the Caracal C 9mm, which includes a couple decent videos:

http://www.steyrclub.com/vb/threads/...racal-C-Review

You can definitely see that ejection isn't a problem for his compact pistol, either. So far so good here in the US of A...

Last edited by Syntax360; November 8, 2010 at 03:23 PM. Reason: added another link
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Old November 8, 2010, 01:01 PM   #25
Edmond
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The batch I have in hand was made in May and November of 2009.
When was your pistol made?
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