Michigan CCW Law=stupid

[ninjatoth]

I have a serious problem with the laws here.I have ocd(wash my hands alot,etc)well,here in michigan,since that is defined as a mental illness,there is no possible way I can take a CCW class,and that's the law.They are fine with issuing me as many pistol permits as I want,and I could buy as many pistols as I want,but I can never carry them.But let me ask you this;If I was some sort of a nut,why would I respect the law anyway,I would just grab the pistol the state let me buy and do whatever I want with it.But i'm not,i'm perfectly sane,yet I am refused the right to protect myself and my family while out and about.I think our law needs some reform.

[maestro pistolero]

ANY mental illness disqualifies one from carry?

[ninjatoth]

yes,in michigan ANY.If you have ever once went to a doctor and he says "you have slight depression",you are out of the game.No CCW for you

[Hkmp5sd]

Not long ago, the feds were trying to add anyone ever diagnosed with PTSD to the prohibited forever list for firearm ownership.

It will only get worse as more states tie their "mental health" medical records into their background check databases. It's just a matter of time until having ADD as a kid can get you a lifetime ban. Or even Dyslexia.

[ninjatoth]

concealed pistol license application question 16


"Not have a diagnosed mental illness at the time the application is made, regardless of whether he or she is receiving treatment"

[ninjatoth]

It really angers me that because I have something minor like that,and I can't help it,I am treated no better than a criminal or something

[Hkmp5sd]

Does Michigan's statutes define what constitutes "Mental Illness"?

Here is how Florida addresses it:

(i) Has not been adjudicated an incapacitated person under s. 744.331, or similar laws of any other state, unless 5 years have elapsed since the applicant's restoration to capacity by court order;

(j) Has not been committed to a mental institution under chapter 394, or similar laws of any other state, unless the applicant produces a certificate from a licensed psychiatrist that he or she has not suffered from disability for at least 5 years prior to the date of submission of the application;

[ninjatoth]

in michigan,if you were involuntarily committed to a mental hospital,you can't even buy a handgun.But for CCW,you not only have that restriction,but also the "any mental illness" restriction.So,since I have never been committed,I can and have purchased handguns,but,I can't carry

[ninjatoth]

If I remember correctly,it's pretty much any mental issue,even slight depression.Normally someone could just play the stupid guy,check "no" to mental illness,and get a ccw no questions asked,but,since I have recieved disability benefits for it,I think checking no would be a bad idea for me

[freakshow10mm]

Did you apply and get denied or did you just read the law and get worked up?

[ninjatoth]

I havent applied,but if I checked yes truthfully to "mental illness" then I would have to be denied

[alloy]

Have you been officially diagnosed, or do you just think you have OCD?

I wash my hands alot, but I work in a repair shop.

http://michigan.gov/documents/ri-012_7736_7.pdf

[maestro pistolero]

Do you think you are mentally ill, or that OC is a mental illness? Or is it just a cognitive disorder unrelated to your competency to safely carry a weapon? Were you involuntarily committed to a mental hospital?

After a little soul searching on those questions, I would decide how to answer the question on the form. My Nevada license, and quite a few other state's without the same requirement have licenses that are good in Michigan.

[ninjatoth]

ocd doesnt pose a concern to handling a firearm,if anything,I am safer because I double check everything,extra careful with everything,keep things in a certain order simmetry,etc.And yes,it is an official mental illness and a psychiatrist has diognosed me.But it falls in the class of mental illness,and under michigan law,I cannot get a ccw permit.And i have not been legally involutarily committed,nor judged incapacitated.I am a normal guy.OCD is not a dementia type of illness like pschiophrenia or something.It is a minor disorder.

[Les Auten]

ninja
This is under discussion on michigan gun owners

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53214

Jim Simmons is a lawyer in the metro area
Shelby Township if I'm not mistaken
He gives his opinion on the Legal Beagle forum.
You can call him for free. But he will charge if you want his official services

His take on depression.(post #14)

There's a specific definition of "mental illness" in the concealed pistol law.

Quote:
"Mental illness" means a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life, and includes, but is not limited to, clinical depression.

(Emphasis mine.)

So it depends on what the doctor writes.

And it hasn't been tested by the courts, either. Does it include minor depression? I would argue that given the primary focus of the definition, it only includes depression severe enought to be a "substantial disorder . . . etc."

Depression comes in many forms and gradations. When U-M beats my Spartans on the gridiron, I'm depressed -- for all of one minute. But I'm pretty sure that's not clinical depression, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not ineligible for a CPL every time MSU gets its ass kicked.

On the other hand, if one had suicidal thoughts and was seriously convinced that life wasn't worth living, that might rise to the level of clinical depression that disqualfies one.

So how about temporary depression. You lose your job; your marriage fails, your dog dies, or worse: you run out of beer. Is that clinical depression?

When I've argued it before gun boards, it seems to come down as to whether the doctor calls it "clinical depression."
__________________
Attorney at Law
NRA Pistol Instructor Class Graduate, RSO

The comments made here are mine alone and do not necessary reflect the views and opinions of Michigan Gun Owners or any other person.

[pendennis]

ninjatoth wrote:

yes,in michigan ANY.If you have ever once went to a doctor and he says "you have slight depression",you are out of the game.No CCW for you

Your statement is incorrect.

I've discussed this with a couple of attorneys and three psychiatrists. All were in agreement that a person had to have a substantial mental disability to be disqualified from having a Concealed Pistol License. (In Michigan, the license is not termed a CCW.)

There are hundreds of people who have been treated for anxiety, minor depression, etc., and they are NOT disqualified from possessing a CPL.

Further, at my CPL class, this question was raised, and the attorney advised that the statute was meant to bar those who had entered the legal system because of mental illness or disability.

[ninjatoth]

pendennis,do you think it is worth pursuing?I am just concerned about question 16 of the app. I would have to truthfull check yes to mental illness wouldn't I?I'm not sure I would feel right checking no,unless legally i'm not mentally ill.I've never been ordered by the law to be checked out,exept for a child custody case where I was ordered to be evaluated,which I never did because another custody settlement was arranged before I had to go,so I never went.Iv'e never been committed,and why would I,it's only OCD.I don't absolutely have to get a cpl ccw or whatever it is called,but just feeling like I can't upsets me,and especially because the law let me buy the guns,and I feel like the law is keeping me from using them to protect myself

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by ninjatoth

I would have to truthfull check yes to mental illness wouldn't I?I'm not sure I would feel right checking no,unless legally i'm not mentally ill.

Talk to a lawyer in Michigan about this. It's a legal question. That's what lawyers are for.

Les Auten gave you a lead to one; you can probably find others through the NRA's web site, or one of the concealed carry groups like packing.org. If you're serious, it would be worth paying a lawyer for a bit of advice. You'll get a better answer from one than from members of a gun forum, helpful and sincere as we all try to be...

[armsmaster270]

I have heard that Now the VA is adding 3 questions to their forms among them have you ever felt like killing anyone. If you answer yes to any of them you face losing your guns. Can anyone shed some light on this.

[blume357]

I wonder how many of us 'truthfully' answer all the questions on any of these forms.

There are some questions on the standard gun purchase form 4473 that I just find insulting... like the one about belonging to a organization that believes in the violent overthrow of the government or what ever.....

I wonder if anyone has ever checked yes on that one?

[Jim March]

"Mental illness" means a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life, and includes, but is not limited to, clinical depression.

OCD absolutely does NOT qualify under that definition.

Neither does Asperger's for that matter, and I'm a mild case. (I can make a good argument that Asperger's isn't a "defect" or "handicap" at all unless it's really severe. In most cases it's just a "difference". Downsides include a slightly "off" fashion sense, tendency to be a loner, etc. Upsides include improved ability to both concentrate on a problem and swallow large amounts of information. Silicon Valley was friggin' *built* by Aspergers, Bill Gates has a pretty obviously heavy case, etc.

I would just answer "no" if that's the definition, either with my Asperger's or your OCD.

[Brian Pfleuger]

But let me ask you this;If I was some sort of a nut,why would I respect the law anyway,

That, in a nutshell, is the stupidity of virtually all gun laws....




I feel for you brother. OCD disqualifying you from a carry permit is stupid beyond words. It almost seems like such a "condition" might make you safer.

[maestro pistolero]

But let me ask you this;If I was some sort of a nut,why would I respect the law anyway.

Mental illness and respect for the law are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[ninjatoth]

Mental illness and respect for the law are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I know this is true and agree.Maybe 1% of violent crimes or suicides come back later to the person being "mentally ill",then the media puts a stereotype in the public's head about the "mentally ill",but take no second thought that the other 99% of violent crimes are done by sane people.(note;my percentages are not scientific,just an exaggerated estimate,but you know what I mean)

[RDak]

ninja: How were you able to get disability benefits for this so-called minor mental affliction?