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Old October 2, 2000, 10:19 AM   #1
JacRyan
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Okay, I've been having the occassional failure to go into battery from slide lock on a full mag. The gun is a Wilson Combat 1996A2 and the mags are 6 WC 8 rounders (3 "old style" feedlips, 3 "new style" feedlips) and 1 WC BeaurocRAT (couldn't resist ) 10 rounder (also "old style" feedlips).

I purchased the gun NIB in '96 and initially attributed the troubles to new/tight mag springs. However, I had to send the gun back to Wilsons for an unrelated issue and had them check the feedramp. They said it checked out okay and they didn't have any problems with it. But, the problems still persisted. I thought I had isolated the 2 mags that were causing me problems, but it just happened again last weekend. The 2 "isolated" mags are "old style" feedlips, and I unfortunately did not think to identify the 1 mag that gave me a failure last Saturday.

The problem is always a failure to chamber a round from slide lock. The round gets caught/rammed into the feedramp and the slide is open maybe only halfway over the magazine. The pistol only has about 1,200 rounds through it, so I don't think it needs a new recoil spring (which WC rec's at 2,000 rounds, though I had this problem when it was new). I am using new never chambered (i.e., full length and not shortened from repeated chamberings) Georgia Arms new (not remanufactured) "canned heat" 230 grain FMJ and Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shoks.

A possibly related problem is that if I chamber the same round more than 2-3 times it will start to get pushed back into the case. At that point the round is shorter and likely to cause feeding problems as well as increased pressure levels. I've been told that this is fairly common with .45ACP but usually doesn't happen with 9mm or .40S&W. FWIW, I don't know if this provides any more clues into the source of the failures to chamber.

BTW, WC's customer service is some of the best I've encountered in this industry. If I need to send the gun back, I'm sure that they would be more than happy to look it over for me, but with shipping costs I'd hate to do that when they've already said the feedramps were okay.

TIA
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Old October 2, 2000, 03:29 PM   #2
James K
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Check to see if the rim/groove of the case is hanging up on the extractor, or if the rim is hanging up on a rough breech face. If the extractor is the problem, it needs polishing and the correct angle on the hook and behind the hook. Correct tension is also needed. If the breechface is rough, it should be smoothed and polished. Usually people start polishing the ramp, but all the ramp polishing in the world won't help these problems.

Magazines can also be a problem. Too many modern magazines are set up to be able to handle rounds with a short overall length. This can cause problems with normal length rounds. See if you can find some WWII GI magazines with the feed lips that expand gradually rather than being straight and then widening at a sharp angle.

Jim
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Old October 2, 2000, 06:12 PM   #3
Mikey
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JacRyan,

The problem you describe is usually caused by weak mag springs or followers that allow the top round to "nose over" when contacted by the slide and strike the feed ramp at a steep angle. If the lower portion of the ramp is not "dead slick", the bullet will stop right there. This problem is almost always worse with 8 round magazines (the only ones I use) and you can test this by loading down to 7 and see if the problem disappears.

Most of the time the gun will exhibit the same failure when hand charged from a full 8 round mag.

To see if the ramp needs a little work, paint it with a marker and run a few rounds thru the gun. Then look to see where the bullet nose is contacting the ramp and make sure the ramped surface in that area is smooth and angled toward the barrel. It may have picked up a nick or two over time.

Mikey
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Old October 2, 2000, 09:40 PM   #4
JacRyan
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Thanks. I also posted this over at AR15.com and thought I'd share their thoughts with you. Here's the link: http://forums.ar15.com/Forum3/HTML/020098.html
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Old October 3, 2000, 10:22 PM   #5
nwgunman
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JacRyan: Good eye for catching the rounds being hammered by repeated chambering. Once years ago I was invited to check out a guys .45 he was carrying. I dropped the mag and cleared the round from the chamber, checked to be sure, then picked up the ejected round to hand back to him. It was an incredibly short HydraShock with heavily damaged nose. He said he routinely cleared the weapon, did whatever, then would stuff the round back into the mag and whammo, chamber it again...oh, probably about 20 times, he says. Talk about a +P+ load! Way too short but his Springfield chambered that thing every time. At least he didn't just drop it into the chmaber and let the slide fly forward. Anyway, it sounds to me like a mag problem you're having. Get some new ones and give it a try. Stay safe.
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Old October 4, 2000, 10:01 AM   #6
JacRyan
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Thanks for all the info.

The mags are all Wilson Combat, arguably the best mags for a 1911 that money can buy.

In fact, in the recent Nov./Dec. American Handgunner, page 19, Alex Hamilton in the "Pistolsmithing" section discusses Wilson and Metalform mags. He says that these mags were designed to feed shorter rounds (such as hollowpoints) than the USGI 1911 mags (which were designed for 230 grain FMJ). He writes: "You need a magazine that releases the cartridge early enough so that the nose of the bullet actually jumps up to the point where it might not even touch the ramp. ... If you don't know how to tell if your magazine features lips crimped in the right place, compare your magazine to one of known quality, like a Metalform or a Wilson."

I think it's time I give Wilson Combat a call.... Hmmmmm.

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. The FBI specified Wilson mags for their recent HRT 1911 (contract was eventually awarded to Springfield Armory). I hesitate to think that it is a mag problem I'm having. Though I'd rather have a mag problem than gun problem.

[This message has been edited by JacRyan (edited October 04, 2000).]
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Old October 4, 2000, 10:44 AM   #7
Icopy
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You could have gotten a lemon wilson mag. I had two which would feed a round into the chamber and a live round would pop out as well. Sent them back for replacement.
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Old October 7, 2000, 02:45 PM   #8
JacRyan
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I figured it out. The problem is the ammo.

I finally went out and bought a dial caliper (it was about time ) and measured each of the 200 remaining Georgia Arms rounds. Most were at the correct overall length of 1.25", but some were 1.22".

I spoke with a tech at Wilson Combat and he said that short rounds were okay as long as they were designed as such (like hollowpoints). The .45ACP 230 grain FMJ load is designed to have an OAL length of 1.25". He said it's okay if they're at 1.24", but shouldn't be any shorter.

Which makes sense, because in measuring my rounds, I also measure and compared the diameter of the round just before rim of the case. The short 1.22" rounds had the "shoulder" of the round pushed back inside of the case leaving the rim of case as an open and exposed "hook". This was catching on the feedramp and hanging up the first round (were there is the most spring pressure). The Wilson Combat tech said this is the equivolent of trying to feed an empty case -- i.e., a big no go.

My guess is that with the loose packaging of Georgia Arms "Canned Heat" (500-1,000 rounds of ammo loose in an ammo can), the weight and pressure of the shifting loose rounds were causing some bullets to be pushed back into the cases.

I have solved the problem with my remaining Georgia Arms ammo by loading a Hydra-Shok or another make of FMJ as the top round in the mag. This eliminates the failures to chamber and will allow me to burn up the rest of my Georgia Arms ammo without problems.

I will continue to purchase Georgia Arms 9mm and .223Rem Canned Heat ammo, as I've had no problems with it in various pistols and AR15's. However, I will purchase "boxed" .45ACP rounds in the future.

Incidentally, I had this same problem 2 years ago with Hydra-Shoks. It was caused by continually loading the same round from the top of the mag, resulting in the bullet getting pushed back into the casing. I started rotating my ammo and didn't have any more problems with the Hydra-Shoks. Though, at that time I didn't know the details of the problem like I do now.

Lots of work getting to the bottom of this, but like anything else, it gives you a much better understanding of your firearms!
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