Who is important? - Page 3

m.p.driver · August 21, 2011, 01:04 PM

I wont break down,re post,and criticize your question like some.It's a tough call on when to intervene,Reginald Denny?a rape going on?store robbery?Use of force is to be used in a circumstance to prevent severe harm to you or others.It's a tough call to decide at which point your interaction is needed,do i step in?or just decide like most "It doesn't concern me". I myself still out of habit fall back on Protect,Defend,Assist.Caring is what separates you from the other animals.
If it were me on the bike,i would have made sure my pistol was easily accessible,rode out of harms way,and called L.E.

threegun · August 21, 2011, 05:49 PM

To help or not to help that is the question.

I'm torn on this because if in this situation myself I would desperately welcome the help.

That said I don't know the details on this situation. It involves a crowd much larger than one man could handle.

I would have had to drive away and phone LE.

MikeNice81 · August 21, 2011, 08:57 PM

Fall back and call the cops. Like them or not their job is to handle that type of situation. For all you know it was a gang initiation or possibly a turf fight.

You were out numberred with no idea of the specifics. That means it is not your fight and you could get in trouble for intervening on the wrong side. Another possible outcome is that the presence of your gun escalates things in to a running gun battle. That isn't something you are likely to win in any fashion.

Daugherty16 · August 22, 2011, 11:44 AM

is to the safety or you and your loved ones. A service that might be rendered to others is not on that list, though it is somewhere on the overall list - but not under the circumstances you described. If your family or friends were involved that might change this evaluation, but you indicated these were all non-acquaintences. Just random gangs of dudes brawling in the street.

You can't immediately distinguish what is happening, who is on what side, doing what to whom, and your intervention is likely to either be useless or cause harm to yourself and/or to the wrong "side" in the altercation. There might not even be a "right" side. A CCW is most definitely not equivalent to an oath to protect and serve the general public, and you're not the MasterChief.

Fall back, drive through quickly, whatever to get some distance away from the melee. Call 911; but PK was right, your phone needs to be on your person and accessible. What if you fell off and couldn't get back to your saddlebags on the bike - how would you call for help while lying in a ditch with broken legs? Anyway, calling 911 is the smartest, and most likely, the only service you owe to your community at large.

ps. it might be better for the gene pool anyway to let some of these idiots kill each other off before calling the mounties...

markj · August 22, 2011, 03:57 PM

Some motorcycle head sets allow cell phone integration, the goldwing has a built in sound system/intercom system a phone can be added to with a third party addition and you can talk thru the headsets in the helmut.

Or use a bluetooth setup for instant use.

Helios · August 23, 2011, 09:18 AM

Gang fight? Best to leave as quickly as you can. Good work not hitting any of them. You don't want them looking for you.

I use a Bluetooth headset inside my full face helmet. Since I can't manipulate the buttons on the unit with the helmet on I still have to manipulate the phone by hand to make or receive calls. I have been thinking about switching to a Bluetooth helmet but they are pricey.

Also, I have been riding with my FLIP video recorder lately behind my visor off and on lately. Set it to low resolution/quality and it can record my entire ride. I wipe the memory before each ride. Lots of guys have been saved recently in accidents/altercations because of the video they had.

Panfisher · August 23, 2011, 05:35 PM

My two cents worth. First off late night/ early morning, mountain road, dark, motorcycle, cars turning in front of you large group of people doing violence in the road!! You did an extremely good job of avoiding a crash which quite likely would have put you right into the midst of things. You avoided everyone including the guys in the road quickly and I would guess accellerated quickly away, excellent. You were in a situation you could not possibly win with no "gain" even if you stopped to "help". If you say you didn't feel safe stopping to call 911 then I will trust your judgement. So your loved ones and you are the important ones.

I am sad that you distrust all LEOs due to some bad experiences (yes they were very bad and the sort of thing that makes good cops hang their head) but most of the police in the U.S. are not there for the money or glory they are good men and women doing a tough job. Were the situation different and a large group of blacks, whites, chinese, etc. were pulling people out of cars and you happened to slip through I would hope you would take the risk of pulling over for a minute to make the 911 call.

A phone that you can easily and quickly access is much better than one you will have to spend time digging for, even if for your own safety, in the event of a motorcycle crash you might not be physically able to dig too deep for it or even be conscious long enough. All factors considered you did quie well!!

Don P · August 24, 2011, 08:27 AM

Like it has been stated before and is my opinion I ain't the police and there were from your discription more folks than you had ammo and also as stated who is the good and who is the bad. Best bet 911

Maxem0815 · August 24, 2011, 08:35 AM

I would have just made tracks for someplace else! Stopping to help out in a riot is not your department. C.Y.A. and let the cops deal with the mess.
Mace

Lee Lapin · August 24, 2011, 08:43 AM

Where does it say "One riot, one Gus-gus?"

lpl

vytoland · August 24, 2011, 03:23 PM

your going to pull out your pistol and take on 30 combatants???

threegun · August 24, 2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

your going to pull out your pistol and take on 30 combatants???

Nope I'm gonna keep going.

I bet though if you do stop and pull out your pistol the 28 combatants would run like jack rabbits after your drill the first two.

serf 'rett · August 24, 2011, 04:37 PM

Quote:

I just don't know if my fears and caution was the right things to do.

You did the right thing, IMHO. Your fears and caution had a solid foundation in common sense.

Few years ago, I'm driving home from church, with wife and kids, when about 4 miles from the City we come upon two cars pulled over on the shoulder. As we approach, a few folks exit the vehicles; whereupon, a woman attacks a man and the pair are running around out in the middle of the state highway. I felt no compulsion to intervene, but did call in a report - once we were safely clear of the area. The incident had already been reported even though I could still see the cars in my rear view mirror.

Presence of family made this choice a no brainer in my situation; just as your good common sense led you to make the correct choice.

vytoland · August 24, 2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:
your going to pull out your pistol and take on 30 combatants???

Nope I'm gonna keep going.

I bet though if you do stop and pull out your pistol the 28 combatants would run like jack rabbits after your drill the first two

dont bet your life on it

TylerD45ACP · August 24, 2011, 11:23 PM

What I am going to to is get myself + any loved ones around out of the situation. If deadly force is necessary I will use it while on the move to get OUT of the area of danger. The best move is to boot it out of there and call 911 from a nearby area but far enough you feel away from danger. Thats my take on the situation imho.

threegun · August 25, 2011, 09:10 AM

Quote:

dont bet your life on it

If the option is do nothing and get beaten or killed vs open fire and I may or may not survive depending on if the gang runs after a few are shot, I'm going to fight. Is that gambling my life or fighting for it?

To date I have yet to see a single event that had a group advance more than a couple of steps while being shot at. The few that did advance did so because they believed they would get the weapon away before being shot. They basically thought they had a chance because they were so close.

This idea that a group/gang of thugs will automatically launch a coordinated attack if we engage them is baseless. If you don't allow yourself to be surrounded and you keep enough distance to allow you to engage those closest to you, they will likely flee when the gunfire starts.

I anyone has evidence of a group of civilian thugs continuing an attack while being shot at please post a link.
No we can't get them all before they get us if they do attack but we can make the first ones pay a heavy price. A price the others have proven in the past not to be willing to pay. Some are worried about capacity. IMO why? Nobody wants to die not the first 5 for you wheel gunners or the first 15 for us semi guys.

TailGator · August 25, 2011, 09:48 AM

If I understand you correctly, threegun, your point is that we would not be dealing with a disciplined unified fighting force, and it is well taken. Mob mentality should probably be be considered to be unpredictable, but if the situation is grave enough you have at least some chance of fighting out of it by your methods. I personally would have to be out of options to try that, but "out of options" is pretty much why we carry, right?

threegun · August 25, 2011, 10:43 AM

Quote:

I personally would have to be out of options to try that, but "out of options" is pretty much why we carry, right?

For me it would be being out of safer options. I personally don't want to wait to use deadly force IF waiting lessens my chances of surviving. Once justified, I want to use my force when it maximizes my chances to survive. I could be justified yet a safer bet would be to comply. I could be justified, have another option, but feel it less safe to attempt the other option especially if a failure in that other option reduces my chances of surviving when I do begin to use deadly force. I hope to let the scenario dictate my actions based on all the information available. If it is to fight, I hope to fight hard.

threegun · August 25, 2011, 10:51 AM

Quote:

If I understand you correctly, threegun, your point is that we would not be dealing with a disciplined unified fighting force,

Right. BTW I wouldn't want to chance an undisciplined ununified gang/mob that has time to prepare a response. The Human Being is the most dangerous animal on Earth because of our ability to think and problem solve.

I would need the elements of surprise and tremendous violence to cause a retreat IMO.

TylerD45ACP · August 25, 2011, 10:58 PM

Alot of BG's will just take off as soon as return fire comes their way, imo. I have nothing to back up that statement but it seems to be what they do. Shooting could actually get the enemy to evade.

Balog · August 25, 2011, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Highway 99 and 200th street "in" Tacoma? I don't remember 99 continuing into Tacoma.

I wondered about that too. 99 turns to a different highway before it even gets to SeaTac, iirc.

That said, there are very very few times I would consider risking my life to stop a large violent group. I'm thinking of that young teen girl being gang-raped when I write that. But adult males fighting? It would take very unusual circumstances to convince me to intervene.

I do think calling 911 would have been the morally correct thing to do. Regardless of any prior bad experiences with police. We must resist evil in the best way we can.

TylerD45ACP · August 26, 2011, 01:14 AM

A young teen girl being assaulted would force me into an automatic draw and I would issue stern commands. If they did not comply and get away from her I would do what I had to do. Getting the police involved in these situatons is always a good idea.

TailGator · August 26, 2011, 09:57 AM

Quote:

I hope to let the scenario dictate my actions based on all the information available.

In other words, think hard and think fast using all available information. And yes, I agree. Knee-jerk reactions just get your kicked in the shins, at best.

Quote:

I'm thinking of that young teen girl being gang-raped

And even that appearance can be mistaken. There was an incident locally in which a 13-year old girl (IIRC) took turns with several boys on a public but sparsely populated beach. Messed up situation, but not an occasion to open fire. My point is only that it is sometimes hard to discern what is going on when you happen upon a situation.

Single Six · August 26, 2011, 11:08 AM

I think that you did the right thing. There was no compelling moral, legal, or ethical reason for you to intervene, particularly with so many people involved. Not to mention the tactical reasons you shouldn't have even thought about doing it. As a full-time LEO, however, I will say this: You're certainly entitled to blindly hate me and my co-workers, even though you've never met me. I'll also readily admit that there have been people who have worn the badge that didn't deserve it and made us all look bad; I challenge you to show me a profession that does not have such people included. As far as LEOs being "an hour away" when you call, that is not always the case. It's also why we have pepper spray, tazers, and a Second Amendment. Besides, if there were enough LEOs to be everywhere at once, what you'd have is a police state, which nobody wants. So: Hate us if you wish. I only ask that, instead of painting us all with the same brush, you judge us as INDIVIDUALS...rather than as a group.

Datguy781 · September 16, 2011, 12:16 AM

It was important that he pointed out that they were black because it means they were more than likely in a gang. Sense you know whites and latinos dont have gangs.(sarcasm)

kkk
arayan brother hood
hells angels
Neo-Nazis
SV-13
mexican mafia
Latin kings
etc..... Seen plenty of migrant workers and "good ol boys" that looked like a group of individuals engaging in illegal activity.What do you call them GANGS!

Seriously though getting the hell out of dodge is the best option if its an option. NOT saying you did behave differently on purpose but would you have even come close to this situation if you were not armed? Why are they all up at 5am?

August 21, 2011, 08:57 PM	#53
MikeNice81 Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2010 Posts: 579	Fall back and call the cops. Like them or not their job is to handle that type of situation. For all you know it was a gang initiation or possibly a turf fight. You were out numberred with no idea of the specifics. That means it is not your fight and you could get in trouble for intervening on the wrong side. Another possible outcome is that the presence of your gun escalates things in to a running gun battle. That isn't something you are likely to win in any fashion. __________________ Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people. Charlton Heston

August 22, 2011, 11:44 AM	#54
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	Primary Duty is to the safety or you and your loved ones. A service that might be rendered to others is not on that list, though it is somewhere on the overall list - but not under the circumstances you described. If your family or friends were involved that might change this evaluation, but you indicated these were all non-acquaintences. Just random gangs of dudes brawling in the street. You can't immediately distinguish what is happening, who is on what side, doing what to whom, and your intervention is likely to either be useless or cause harm to yourself and/or to the wrong "side" in the altercation. There might not even be a "right" side. A CCW is most definitely not equivalent to an oath to protect and serve the general public, and you're not the MasterChief. Fall back, drive through quickly, whatever to get some distance away from the melee. Call 911; but PK was right, your phone needs to be on your person and accessible. What if you fell off and couldn't get back to your saddlebags on the bike - how would you call for help while lying in a ditch with broken legs? Anyway, calling 911 is the smartest, and most likely, the only service you owe to your community at large. ps. it might be better for the gene pool anyway to let some of these idiots kill each other off before calling the mounties... __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

August 24, 2011, 08:27 AM	#58
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Like it has been stated before and is my opinion I ain't the police and there were from your discription more folks than you had ammo and also as stated who is the good and who is the bad. Best bet 911 __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

August 24, 2011, 08:43 AM	#60
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Where does it say "One riot, one Gus-gus?" lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

August 26, 2011, 11:08 AM	#74
Single Six Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2010 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,522	I think that you did the right thing. There was no compelling moral, legal, or ethical reason for you to intervene, particularly with so many people involved. Not to mention the tactical reasons you shouldn't have even thought about doing it. As a full-time LEO, however, I will say this: You're certainly entitled to blindly hate me and my co-workers, even though you've never met me. I'll also readily admit that there have been people who have worn the badge that didn't deserve it and made us all look bad; I challenge you to show me a profession that does not have such people included. As far as LEOs being "an hour away" when you call, that is not always the case. It's also why we have pepper spray, tazers, and a Second Amendment. Besides, if there were enough LEOs to be everywhere at once, what you'd have is a police state, which nobody wants. So: Hate us if you wish. I only ask that, instead of painting us all with the same brush, you judge us as INDIVIDUALS...rather than as a group. __________________ Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway." Last edited by Single Six; August 26, 2011 at 11:14 AM.

August 21, 2011, 01:04 PM	#51
m.p.driver Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 552	I wont break down,re post,and criticize your question like some.It's a tough call on when to intervene,Reginald Denny?a rape going on?store robbery?Use of force is to be used in a circumstance to prevent severe harm to you or others.It's a tough call to decide at which point your interaction is needed,do i step in?or just decide like most "It doesn't concern me". I myself still out of habit fall back on Protect,Defend,Assist.Caring is what separates you from the other animals. If it were me on the bike,i would have made sure my pistol was easily accessible,rode out of harms way,and called L.E.

August 21, 2011, 05:49 PM	#52
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	To help or not to help that is the question. I'm torn on this because if in this situation myself I would desperately welcome the help. That said I don't know the details on this situation. It involves a crowd much larger than one man could handle. I would have had to drive away and phone LE.

August 22, 2011, 03:57 PM	#55
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Some motorcycle head sets allow cell phone integration, the goldwing has a built in sound system/intercom system a phone can be added to with a third party addition and you can talk thru the headsets in the helmut. Or use a bluetooth setup for instant use.

August 23, 2011, 09:18 AM	#56
Helios Member Join Date: April 4, 2010 Location: Maitland, Florida Posts: 71	Gang fight? Best to leave as quickly as you can. Good work not hitting any of them. You don't want them looking for you. I use a Bluetooth headset inside my full face helmet. Since I can't manipulate the buttons on the unit with the helmet on I still have to manipulate the phone by hand to make or receive calls. I have been thinking about switching to a Bluetooth helmet but they are pricey. Also, I have been riding with my FLIP video recorder lately behind my visor off and on lately. Set it to low resolution/quality and it can record my entire ride. I wipe the memory before each ride. Lots of guys have been saved recently in accidents/altercations because of the video they had.

August 23, 2011, 05:35 PM	#57
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	My two cents worth. First off late night/ early morning, mountain road, dark, motorcycle, cars turning in front of you large group of people doing violence in the road!! You did an extremely good job of avoiding a crash which quite likely would have put you right into the midst of things. You avoided everyone including the guys in the road quickly and I would guess accellerated quickly away, excellent. You were in a situation you could not possibly win with no "gain" even if you stopped to "help". If you say you didn't feel safe stopping to call 911 then I will trust your judgement. So your loved ones and you are the important ones. I am sad that you distrust all LEOs due to some bad experiences (yes they were very bad and the sort of thing that makes good cops hang their head) but most of the police in the U.S. are not there for the money or glory they are good men and women doing a tough job. Were the situation different and a large group of blacks, whites, chinese, etc. were pulling people out of cars and you happened to slip through I would hope you would take the risk of pulling over for a minute to make the 911 call. A phone that you can easily and quickly access is much better than one you will have to spend time digging for, even if for your own safety, in the event of a motorcycle crash you might not be physically able to dig too deep for it or even be conscious long enough. All factors considered you did quie well!!

August 24, 2011, 08:35 AM	#59
Maxem0815 Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 216	I would have just made tracks for someplace else! Stopping to help out in a riot is not your department. C.Y.A. and let the cops deal with the mess. Mace

August 24, 2011, 03:23 PM	#61
vytoland Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: Illinois Posts: 614	your going to pull out your pistol and take on 30 combatants???

August 24, 2011, 11:23 PM	#65
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	What I am going to to is get myself + any loved ones around out of the situation. If deadly force is necessary I will use it while on the move to get OUT of the area of danger. The best move is to boot it out of there and call 911 from a nearby area but far enough you feel away from danger. Thats my take on the situation imho.

August 25, 2011, 09:48 AM	#67
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	If I understand you correctly, threegun, your point is that we would not be dealing with a disciplined unified fighting force, and it is well taken. Mob mentality should probably be be considered to be unpredictable, but if the situation is grave enough you have at least some chance of fighting out of it by your methods. I personally would have to be out of options to try that, but "out of options" is pretty much why we carry, right?

August 25, 2011, 10:58 PM	#70
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	Alot of BG's will just take off as soon as return fire comes their way, imo. I have nothing to back up that statement but it seems to be what they do. Shooting could actually get the enemy to evade.

August 26, 2011, 01:14 AM	#72
TylerD45ACP Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2010 Posts: 1,654	A young teen girl being assaulted would force me into an automatic draw and I would issue stern commands. If they did not comply and get away from her I would do what I had to do. Getting the police involved in these situatons is always a good idea.

September 16, 2011, 12:16 AM	#75
Datguy781 Member Join Date: August 29, 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 93	Vito It was important that he pointed out that they were black because it means they were more than likely in a gang. Sense you know whites and latinos dont have gangs.(sarcasm) kkk arayan brother hood hells angels Neo-Nazis SV-13 mexican mafia Latin kings etc..... Seen plenty of migrant workers and "good ol boys" that looked like a group of individuals engaging in illegal activity.What do you call them GANGS! Seriously though getting the hell out of dodge is the best option if its an option. NOT saying you did behave differently on purpose but would you have even come close to this situation if you were not armed? Why are they all up at 5am?