Sizing and crimp die questions

CMKiefer · February 28, 2009, 09:29 AM

Hi all,
I've been loading straight walled handgun ammo for some time now and am looking into reloading for my .270 Win. I am interested mainly in working up an accurate long-distance varmint load using something akin to the Speer 90gr TNT bullet.

I've been looking at the Lee deluxe 3 die set which includes a full-length sizing die and a collet neck sizing die.

Here's my question:

Lee says the collet die is not appropriate for hunting as the case neck is sized only and the bullet is not crimped in the case.

Why is this appropriate for target shooting but not for hunting?

Do I need to buy another die for crimping (For hunting)? Would the Lee factory crimp die be appropriate?

Thanks for your patience/help

Sevens · February 28, 2009, 09:45 AM

I think Lee's particular warning in this case is poorly stated and leads to confusion. Here's what you need to know about the collet neck-only size die:

It's a terrific tool that slashes reloading time in half, slashing the physical effort needed in half, and it (theoretically) makes the brass last much longer because it's subjected to less work. Also, theoretically, this ammo can be more accurate because the brass is already sized to your chamber.

It's important to note that the collet neck-only size die is used for ammo to be fired in the SAME GUN ONLY, and even then, it should be a single shot or a bolt action rifle, as lever action, slide action and semi-auto action rifles need a more generous chamber and also don't have the leverage over the brass to move it in and out of the chamber.

Even if you have two different rifles of the same make, model, caliber, the ammo you make with the neck-only size die should stick to the same single rifle.

As for hunting, ALL handloads... or better yet, EVERY LOADED ROUND should be worked through the action of the hunting rifle before you even leave for the trip. This is the only sure way to know that the ammo is going to work, it's going to fit, and it's not going to tie up the action. A poorly sized reload make look right, but if it's not been run through the chamber, then there exists the possibility that it hangs up in the chamber or ties up the rifle.

Neck-only sized rounds by their very nature are going to have the body of the brass sized to your chamber rather than down to SAAMI factory spec. Because of that, it's likely going to be a tighter fit. So you should chamber check each round rather than possibly ruining a hunt.

I like the collet neck-only size die, and it's quite popular. It allows you to take brass that you've already fired in your rifle and re-size them with no case lube, no full length sizing, and much less effort. It's a great tool, but it has to be used properly.

Sevens · February 28, 2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Lee says the collet die is not appropriate for hunting as the case neck is sized only and the bullet is not crimped in the case.

I also am not sure why Lee would say this.
A sizing die, be it full length or collet neck-only doesn't crimp anything, and never will. The bullet seating die will give you a roll crimp if you so desire, and the rifle FCD will also give you a nice ring crimp if you feel you need one.

With bottle neck rifle rounds, you need to be mindful of COAL... if you seat a bullet too far out and have little or no crimp, there's always the chance that bullet will want to stick in the chamber when you attempt to make the gun safe and unload it... the bullet gets yanked from the case and powder gets dumped in to the action of your rifle.

CMKiefer · February 28, 2009, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the info, Sevens. The intended use for this ammo will be for one bolt action rifle using brass once-fired from that rifle.

I think also that you are saying that I don't necessarily need a FCD?

Thanks

**Unclenick** · February 28, 2009, 10:13 AM

It's just about feeding from a magazine, guys. If you look over feed reliability issue threads you'll find some semi-autos even need to have brass sized in small base dies to feed reliably, much less working with wider neck sized cases. You'll also find the SAAMI maximum case shoulder headspace datum-to-casehead face measurement is usually 0.002" under the minimum chamber headspace. The case body maximum is also usually about 0.001" under the chamber diameter minimum at any given corresponding point along its length. This is all to assure rapid feeding from a magazine won't jamb up. That can be pretty important to a target shooter in a rapid fire string, and extremely important to a hunter being charged by whatever his first shot didn't quite manage to put down.

On that last point, I expect Lee may perceive some liability potential, and hence the warning not to use those loads for hunting. Nothing to do with lethality or accuracy, obviously. Poorly explained, as you say, and obviously does not apply to hunting with a single-shot, like a Ruger #1, unless your rapid follow-up technique is the sniper school method of tossing a round into the chamber. That might not go so smoothly with a neck-sized-only cartridge.

Also, if you neck-size only, there comes a point when the brass fills out so tightly that it is difficult to chamber even onie-at-a-time, much less feed from a magazine and you have to bump the shoulder back a couple thousandths in either a regular FL sizing die or in a special bump die. If your brass had just reached that point on the last firing and you neck-sized and went hunting with it in that condition you might have a hard time with follow-ups, too.

The above will apply more to cases with less taper in their shape, and vice-versa. If you are able to keep your rounds from being confused, you can put a neck-sized round in the chamber and have conventionally sized rounds in the magazine for follow-up. I think that's asking for mix-ups, though.

The collet die is a great tool. You do still need to anneal your neck to get maximum case life, though, so plan on that.

P.S. No. You don't need the FCD. It will work your neck brass more, so if you can get the results you want without it, I would not use it. Especially not for long range (by which I mean, in this context, any distance where wind doping starts to get critical; say, beyond 300 yards), where the added indentations in the bullet cut into ballistic coefficient a little by creating extra energy-consuming shock waves off the bullet. But if you try it at your usual shooting ranges and you get improved accuracy, then by all means use it and just figure to anneal the necks a little more often. Maybe every third loading.

CMKiefer · February 28, 2009, 10:22 AM

So under "normal" conditions, what kind of case life should I expect using the collet die? How much more when annealing?

I know this is dependant on many factors, just looking fo a ballpark.

**Unclenick** · February 28, 2009, 10:49 AM

Some of the benchrest guys get up to 50 reloads out of a case. That is with conventional neck sizing dies, and I'm sure they choose the neck inserts carefully to do just the minimum degree of sizing for whatever diameter they turn their neck outsides to. I expect about 30 reloads using the collet die and no factory crimp depending on the round and firing pressure. I anneal about every fifth loading. But none of that is written in stone. I've had some cases that I size for the AR last over 20 reloads with full-length sizing (with regular annealing). I've had a few that I am neck sizing and annealing that still split in half a dozen reloadings. You just get the occasional odd-ball.

The Hornady kit works for annealing, though I prefer a slightly higher temperature that puts the grain size and tensile strength in a flatter part of its temperature curve for better uniformity. I use Tempilaq 650°F rather than the lower temperature stuff in their kit. In the name of full-disclosure, I should mention that I am not actually using their kit, but a similar arrangement with a Sinclair case holder that I already owned, but if you wear a glove on your left hand to loosen the holder (and I do) the inexpensive case stud that Lee sells for its case trimmers for $5 or $6 would be fine, too.

Tempilaq can be got from Brownells, among other places. You just insert a case with the dried Tempilaq spot on it and turn it in an electric screwdriver/drill at slow speed while you heat it with a small propane torch flame unit the Tempilaq melts, then quench it in water to protect the head from getting too warm and remove it and put the next case in. That's my procedure, anyway. I think the spinning keeps the heat distribution and subsequent brass flow more uniform that heating them stationary does. I like the Tempilaq, but if you use a dark room at night and heat just until the faintest hint of dull red glow appears, then immediately quench, that works, too. It is higher temperature and the case gets a bit softer, but I've not heard of any damage from that. I just prefer to control where in the softening and grain growth v. temperature curve the stuff lands.

Sevens · February 28, 2009, 10:52 AM

It really is dependent on many, many factors, and guessing would be nothing more than guessing. Depends on your load, the maker of your brass, the dimensions of your chamber, the techniques you use at the bench, your case prep, etc etc.

I've had some LC brass fail with split necks after one reload... two firings: new, and first reload. And LC is decent brass.

Why not buy a couple bags, get started with 100 or 200 pieces, and see how many times you can reload a 10-piece lot?

**Unclenick** · February 28, 2009, 11:00 AM

For that matter, when I was shooting handguns more I remember some new .357 factory loads about half of which split their casemouths on that first firing. It is indeed chamber and and load and brass dependent.

As an aside, I just recently had occassion to price some nickel-plated Remington .308 brass. It was going for as much as $0.45/case in 500 quantity! Yikes! I got Lapua on sale a year ago for $0.48 a case. Remington must have been in the low or mid-twenties at the time. The hoarding thing has really got out of hand. I hope the suppliers can catch up before too long. No wonder people want maximum case life!

two 70 · February 28, 2009, 01:21 PM

Been shooting reloaded .270 ammo for years for hunting purposes and have experimented with both neck sizing and full length sizing with mixed brass. For my purposes I stick with full length sizing, monitor trim length closely and keep all brass cleaned and polished. I do not crimp for my Model 70 , don't shoot a lot, and have found very few brass rejects after six or more cycles. I load near max and or compressed loads with 4831 depending on bullet and just haven't been able to detect an accuracy difference between full and neck sizing techniques. The only problem ever encountered was from a friend who reloaded for me before I got my bench setup and was with his RCBS neck sizing reloads of once fired brass from my rifle that turned out an occasional round that made closing the bolt difficult. I've kept these sorted out and eventually will pull the bullets and full length resize in my Lee setup to salvage brass. I am guessing it was caused by the adjustment of the neck sizing die in his press. These loads would cycle through his Ruger 77.
Guess I should fess up and say that another reason I full length resize is that I'm a chronic brass scounger, .270's are popular in this area and I hate to pass up somebody else's discards.

February 28, 2009, 09:45 AM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I think Lee's particular warning in this case is poorly stated and leads to confusion. Here's what you need to know about the collet neck-only size die: It's a terrific tool that slashes reloading time in half, slashing the physical effort needed in half, and it (theoretically) makes the brass last much longer because it's subjected to less work. Also, theoretically, this ammo can be more accurate because the brass is already sized to your chamber. It's important to note that the collet neck-only size die is used for ammo to be fired in the SAME GUN ONLY, and even then, it should be a single shot or a bolt action rifle, as lever action, slide action and semi-auto action rifles need a more generous chamber and also don't have the leverage over the brass to move it in and out of the chamber. Even if you have two different rifles of the same make, model, caliber, the ammo you make with the neck-only size die should stick to the same single rifle. As for hunting, ALL handloads... or better yet, EVERY LOADED ROUND should be worked through the action of the hunting rifle before you even leave for the trip. This is the only sure way to know that the ammo is going to work, it's going to fit, and it's not going to tie up the action. A poorly sized reload make look right, but if it's not been run through the chamber, then there exists the possibility that it hangs up in the chamber or ties up the rifle. Neck-only sized rounds by their very nature are going to have the body of the brass sized to your chamber rather than down to SAAMI factory spec. Because of that, it's likely going to be a tighter fit. So you should chamber check each round rather than possibly ruining a hunt. I like the collet neck-only size die, and it's quite popular. It allows you to take brass that you've already fired in your rifle and re-size them with no case lube, no full length sizing, and much less effort. It's a great tool, but it has to be used properly. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 28, 2009, 10:13 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's just about feeding from a magazine, guys. If you look over feed reliability issue threads you'll find some semi-autos even need to have brass sized in small base dies to feed reliably, much less working with wider neck sized cases. You'll also find the SAAMI maximum case shoulder headspace datum-to-casehead face measurement is usually 0.002" under the minimum chamber headspace. The case body maximum is also usually about 0.001" under the chamber diameter minimum at any given corresponding point along its length. This is all to assure rapid feeding from a magazine won't jamb up. That can be pretty important to a target shooter in a rapid fire string, and extremely important to a hunter being charged by whatever his first shot didn't quite manage to put down. On that last point, I expect Lee may perceive some liability potential, and hence the warning not to use those loads for hunting. Nothing to do with lethality or accuracy, obviously. Poorly explained, as you say, and obviously does not apply to hunting with a single-shot, like a Ruger #1, unless your rapid follow-up technique is the sniper school method of tossing a round into the chamber. That might not go so smoothly with a neck-sized-only cartridge. Also, if you neck-size only, there comes a point when the brass fills out so tightly that it is difficult to chamber even onie-at-a-time, much less feed from a magazine and you have to bump the shoulder back a couple thousandths in either a regular FL sizing die or in a special bump die. If your brass had just reached that point on the last firing and you neck-sized and went hunting with it in that condition you might have a hard time with follow-ups, too. The above will apply more to cases with less taper in their shape, and vice-versa. If you are able to keep your rounds from being confused, you can put a neck-sized round in the chamber and have conventionally sized rounds in the magazine for follow-up. I think that's asking for mix-ups, though. The collet die is a great tool. You do still need to anneal your neck to get maximum case life, though, so plan on that. P.S. No. You don't need the FCD. It will work your neck brass more, so if you can get the results you want without it, I would not use it. Especially not for long range (by which I mean, in this context, any distance where wind doping starts to get critical; say, beyond 300 yards), where the added indentations in the bullet cut into ballistic coefficient a little by creating extra energy-consuming shock waves off the bullet. But if you try it at your usual shooting ranges and you get improved accuracy, then by all means use it and just figure to anneal the necks a little more often. Maybe every third loading. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 28, 2009 at 10:27 AM.

February 28, 2009, 10:49 AM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Some of the benchrest guys get up to 50 reloads out of a case. That is with conventional neck sizing dies, and I'm sure they choose the neck inserts carefully to do just the minimum degree of sizing for whatever diameter they turn their neck outsides to. I expect about 30 reloads using the collet die and no factory crimp depending on the round and firing pressure. I anneal about every fifth loading. But none of that is written in stone. I've had some cases that I size for the AR last over 20 reloads with full-length sizing (with regular annealing). I've had a few that I am neck sizing and annealing that still split in half a dozen reloadings. You just get the occasional odd-ball. The Hornady kit works for annealing, though I prefer a slightly higher temperature that puts the grain size and tensile strength in a flatter part of its temperature curve for better uniformity. I use Tempilaq 650°F rather than the lower temperature stuff in their kit. In the name of full-disclosure, I should mention that I am not actually using their kit, but a similar arrangement with a Sinclair case holder that I already owned, but if you wear a glove on your left hand to loosen the holder (and I do) the inexpensive case stud that Lee sells for its case trimmers for $5 or $6 would be fine, too. Tempilaq can be got from Brownells, among other places. You just insert a case with the dried Tempilaq spot on it and turn it in an electric screwdriver/drill at slow speed while you heat it with a small propane torch flame unit the Tempilaq melts, then quench it in water to protect the head from getting too warm and remove it and put the next case in. That's my procedure, anyway. I think the spinning keeps the heat distribution and subsequent brass flow more uniform that heating them stationary does. I like the Tempilaq, but if you use a dark room at night and heat just until the faintest hint of dull red glow appears, then immediately quench, that works, too. It is higher temperature and the case gets a bit softer, but I've not heard of any damage from that. I just prefer to control where in the softening and grain growth v. temperature curve the stuff lands. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; February 28, 2009 at 10:54 AM.

February 28, 2009, 10:52 AM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	It really is dependent on many, many factors, and guessing would be nothing more than guessing. Depends on your load, the maker of your brass, the dimensions of your chamber, the techniques you use at the bench, your case prep, etc etc. I've had some LC brass fail with split necks after one reload... two firings: new, and first reload. And LC is decent brass. Why not buy a couple bags, get started with 100 or 200 pieces, and see how many times you can reload a 10-piece lot? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 28, 2009, 11:00 AM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	For that matter, when I was shooting handguns more I remember some new .357 factory loads about half of which split their casemouths on that first firing. It is indeed chamber and and load and brass dependent. As an aside, I just recently had occassion to price some nickel-plated Remington .308 brass. It was going for as much as $0.45/case in 500 quantity! Yikes! I got Lapua on sale a year ago for $0.48 a case. Remington must have been in the low or mid-twenties at the time. The hoarding thing has really got out of hand. I hope the suppliers can catch up before too long. No wonder people want maximum case life! __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 28, 2009, 09:29 AM	#1
CMKiefer Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Michigan's Upper Penninsula Posts: 45	Sizing and crimp die questions Hi all, I've been loading straight walled handgun ammo for some time now and am looking into reloading for my .270 Win. I am interested mainly in working up an accurate long-distance varmint load using something akin to the Speer 90gr TNT bullet. I've been looking at the Lee deluxe 3 die set which includes a full-length sizing die and a collet neck sizing die. Here's my question: Lee says the collet die is not appropriate for hunting as the case neck is sized only and the bullet is not crimped in the case. Why is this appropriate for target shooting but not for hunting? Do I need to buy another die for crimping (For hunting)? Would the Lee factory crimp die be appropriate? Thanks for your patience/help

February 28, 2009, 10:04 AM	#4
CMKiefer Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Michigan's Upper Penninsula Posts: 45	Thanks for the info, Sevens. The intended use for this ammo will be for one bolt action rifle using brass once-fired from that rifle. I think also that you are saying that I don't necessarily need a FCD? Thanks

February 28, 2009, 10:22 AM	#6
CMKiefer Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Michigan's Upper Penninsula Posts: 45	So under "normal" conditions, what kind of case life should I expect using the collet die? How much more when annealing? I know this is dependant on many factors, just looking fo a ballpark.

February 28, 2009, 01:21 PM	#10
two 70 Member Join Date: July 27, 2008 Location: Extreme NE Wa Posts: 54	.270 reloads Been shooting reloaded .270 ammo for years for hunting purposes and have experimented with both neck sizing and full length sizing with mixed brass. For my purposes I stick with full length sizing, monitor trim length closely and keep all brass cleaned and polished. I do not crimp for my Model 70 , don't shoot a lot, and have found very few brass rejects after six or more cycles. I load near max and or compressed loads with 4831 depending on bullet and just haven't been able to detect an accuracy difference between full and neck sizing techniques. The only problem ever encountered was from a friend who reloaded for me before I got my bench setup and was with his RCBS neck sizing reloads of once fired brass from my rifle that turned out an occasional round that made closing the bolt difficult. I've kept these sorted out and eventually will pull the bullets and full length resize in my Lee setup to salvage brass. I am guessing it was caused by the adjustment of the neck sizing die in his press. These loads would cycle through his Ruger 77. Guess I should fess up and say that another reason I full length resize is that I'm a chronic brass scounger, .270's are popular in this area and I hate to pass up somebody else's discards. __________________ The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his. G.S. Patton Gun Control is not having to say I missed you.