Need help with rifle reloading process!

[maseh2os]

Ok, having done far too much lurking on several of these forums, and only getting myself more and more confused, I decided I should finally post my own questions in hopes of getting a complete answer. This will be kind of lengthy, so I apologize in advance.

Background: I am fairly new shooter and even newer to reloading. I have only reloaded 9mm thus far, but I have a 25-06 bolt action that I would like to start reloading for as well. I have an RCBS Rockchucker press and most of the basics (scale, calipers, hand primer, etc).

It will be used mostly for hunting varmint and deer, with the obvious paper shooting in between. I have no desire to shoot crazy distances for insanely tight groups. I don't want to get overly fussy with the process, I don't like the sound of things like turning brass, buying expensive brass, measuring and sorting each bullet, sorting different headstamps, etc. I would like ammo that is relatively easy to make, doesn't need to be babied to keep bullets from getting pushed in or falling out, brass I can use as many times as possible, and as accurate or better than factory ammo. I know, I know...not asking for much at all, right?

Let me just lay out what process and tools I think I should use to reload for the 25-06, ask a few questions, and then you guys can tell me if I'm on the right track or way off base. I know there is a lot of brand loyalty in this game, but I'm hoping we can avoid most of the back and forth in that regard!

1. Trim case if necessary
2. Deprime and reprime.
3. If this is previously fired brass (not my rifle), or has been fired several times by me, run cases through Redding Body Die.
4. Neck size using Lee collet neck sizing die.
5. Powder charge
6. Seat bullet using dead length seating die that comes with Lee collet.
7. Light crimp with Lee factory crimp die, but this would be optional, mainly if I didn't think the bullet was being held tightly enough from neck sizing alone.
8. Shoot
9. Repeat

Does this seem mostly right?

I've noticed there is a lot of contention over neck/full body sizing, so I guess I should ask: based on my desired results is it even necessary or should I just be staying in my depth by using a standard die set?

I chose body die instead of regular full length resizing because I had read in several places that it can jack up the neck which you are trying to avoid for neck sizing...sound reasonable?

I know there are better seating dies (and better dies of each kind I listed), but given financial restrictions, I'm trying to do the best I can with what I can afford. And again, I'm not trying to set any records here.

I know there is also debate over crimping, but honestly I think I would be most comfortable with a bit of crimp just for safety. Also, since I'd rather not try to seat the bullet near/against the lands as some seem to do with neck sizing, wouldn't some crimp help compensate for that pressure loss?

I know this is a lot of stuff, probably too much for one post, but I keep finding such fragmented information that I wanted to try getting it all at once! Sorry again for the length, and thanks in advance to all who take the time to read and respond!

[Jim Watson]

Do you have a real manual?
I ask because you do not list steps in the usual sequence.

1. Resize, decap. I think a standard die will serve. Many target shooters find the best combination of reliability and accuracy with routine full length sizing. I would definitely full length size for hunting.
If you want to neck size with the collet die after your brass is fireformed to your bolt action, that will do the job for several loadings without resorting to a separate body die. When it takes more effort to chamber, run through the full length die again.

2. Trim.
3. Reprime.
3. Powder charge.
4. Seat bullet.

I do not crimp rifle bullets. I might if I were loading for an auto to shoot 3-gun or some such, but it is just not necessary for most uses. You cannot crimp a loose bullet tight. If you do not have adequate bullet pull to keep the bullet from moving in the neck, something is wrong and you should look for the problem instead of applying a bandaid.

I don't turn necks although I do deburr flashholes.

Don't put yourself in the position of sorting headstamps. It is not like you are going to find a deal on army surplus .25-06. Get a good supply of fresh brass and start it out in your rifle. If you have been saving brass from shooting factory loads, I think sorting will help. I have one rifle that has three batches of brass.

[PawPaw]

As Jim said, I think you're overly-complicating the process. Reloading rifle ammo is in many ways easier than reloading pistol ammo. If you're only loading for one rifle, it gets easier still.

Deprime, camfer, prime, powder, seat bullet. That's all there is to it, with inspection steps along the way. Use your eyeballs, that's what they are there for. I'll assume that your .25-06 is a bolt gun, so crimping isn't necessary. Neck tension alone is sufficient to hold the bullet in place.

The only time I crimp rifle ammo is when I'm loading for a tubular magazine such as a lever rifle. Otherwise crimping is not necessary.

I don't trim brass except when I'm prepping a new batch of brass, or after the third or fourth loading. After I trim brass, I camfer it, I don't camfer brass every time I load it. Once is generally sufficient until the next trimming.

[Brian Pfleuger]

If you're loading for bolt-action or single shot rifles, you will mainly only need the neck die and seating die.

You will want to first neck size (which will also de-prime) the cases and then measure to insure that they are less than max length and reasonably consistent length. If not, trim them here. If you trim them, chamfer and deburr after.

I find that I only need the Redding body die after at least 4 or 5 loadings, sometimes not even then. I simply keep any case that fits a little snug in a separate pocket or something and run it through the body die next time around.

You won't need to crimp unless your loading for a "repeating" gun... semi-auto or tube feeder.... but you might find that doing so produces more accurate ammo in your gun. You can only know by trying both ways.

[maseh2os]

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

Point taken on the basic order of operations there. Knew I was mixing some stuff up. I do have some manuals, and I will definitely have to refine my steps on things like cleaning, depriming, priming, trimming, etc. I guess right now I since I don't have any of the stuff, I am more concerned with what dies and processes to start out with.

So far on here it looks like we have two votes for full length resize and one for neck sizing. I've been getting split answers on that on other forums as well, so I guess I'm still not sure which route to take there. Some seem to think neck sizing is over-complicating the matter while others think that getting rid of the lubing and wiping off lube steps associated with full length sizing simplifies things more! Too much to think about I guess. I just don't want to end up spending the money twice right off the bat if I can help it.

Anyway, thanks again for the replies guys, keep them coming!

[Sevens]

Neck vs Full-length.

Keep in mind that I only dabble in rifle handloading, I'm more of a handgun kinda guy.

You can only neck size when you have brass that was previously fired in YOUR rifle, as the body of the case is now fire formed to your chamber.

Also, you can neck-only size when you are using a bolt-action or a single shot. If you use a pump or semi-auto or lever gun, neck sizing may not work well for you.

If you can neck-size, you may very well end up with:
--more accurate ammo
--that takes less physical work at the bench
--that is less messy (lube) and time consuming (removing lube)
--that puts less stress on the cases from FL sizing

So, if you have a bolt gun and your brass has been previously fired in your rifle, there are many benefits to choosing neck sizing over full-length sizing.

After neck sizing, loading, then firing, you may find that at some point, you will need to full length size again... assuming your brass is holding up.

The amount of physical muscle on the press lever for neck sizing is fractional to the amount of energy you'll spend full length sizing the brass. If we are talking about 10 pieces of brass, no matter. If we are talking about 75 or 250 pieces, it's a big, big deal. Neck sizing is very easy.

[Sevens]

PawPaw, the word camfer in your post... Do you mean "chamfer", or is camfer a personal term like the oft-used "boolit" where it means something like the actual word, but with a little personality thrown in it?

I would have figured slip of the keyboard, but you used it three times.

[Jim243]

If it is a hunting round than full lenght resizing would give more insurance that the round will feed in correctly when you close the bolt, you do not want an unsized round that will not feed on a hunting trip, they cost too much in time and money to watch a whitetail go running off in the distance.

Neck sizing only will not give you the correct bump to the shoulder to insure the round will feed correctly all the time. Brass does grow in lenth.

Just my 5 and 1/2 cents.

Jim

[maseh2os]

What kind of difference in case life would I see between the two? Would there be enough difference in accuracy to be of very much value when considering the kind of shooting I will be doing?

[Doodlebugger45]

Just get you a set of Lee Deluxe dies. It includes a neck sizing collet die that you can use for 3-4 loadings. It also includes a FL sizer die to bump it all back into original shape when needed. Plus a seating die. Plus a shell holder. All for less than $30. Neck sizing will greatly reduce the need for trimming. I hate lubing and I hate trimming.

No reason why the Lee set won't fit your needs perfectly.

Don't bother with crimping for you 25-06. It won't help and might even hurt.

[maseh2os]

Just get you a set of Lee Deluxe dies.

The only reason I was leaning toward the Redding body die in place of the Lee FL die that comes in the deluxe kit is that I have noticed some saying that a normal FL sizing die can mess up the neck dimensions and concentricity that you have been preserving by neck sizing. The Redding body die resizes and pushes the shoulder without touching the neck. This sounded like a better idea to me, but I could be way off track in assuming the normal FL sizer will actually mess anything up. Thoughts??

[Bleeber]

Good thread. Lot of useful info here as I am soon to make the transition from my Dillon Square Deal B to another press for my hunting rifle/s.

Thanks!!

[rsnell]

I follow the procedure below.

1. Clean cases.
2. Insert the correct shell holder into the press. Raise ram to the maximum height. Screw in full length or neck sizing die into press until it touches the shell holder. Back off one turn. Remove the spindle holding the decapping pin and the expander button. Run a lubricated case into the die. Adjust the headspace using your rifle or a L. E. Wilson case gage. This is done by screwing the die into the press ⅛ to ¼ turn until the bolt will close on the chambered case (not a crush fit) or fit into the case gage as described in the directions for the case gage. Lock the die into this position. Insert the spindle into the die but do not tighten. Lube the inside of the case neck and slowly raise the ram to the top. Adjust the spindle to expel the primer and lower the ram until you feel resistance. At this point the expander button is in the neck of the case. Tighten the spindle. The die is not adjusted for the correct headspace.
3. Clean the primer pocket, trim to the correct case length if necessary. If the case was trimmed, debur inside and outside of case neck if the case was trimmed.
4. Seat primer.
5. Charge case.
6. Seat bullet.
7. Crimp if desired.
8. Clean lubricant off cases.

Read the sticky at the beginning of this forum.

Bob Snell

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by Sevens

PawPaw, the word camfer in your post... Do you mean "chamfer", or is camfer a personal term like the oft-used "boolit"

Aw, hell, I don't know. I never said I was literate. Let's look it up.

You're right! It is chamfer. Thanks! I've been mis-spelling it all these years. Personally, I use the Lyman VLD Chamfer tool. Mine has a wooden handle, not the new-fangled plastic one.

That "boolit" term? I detest that. And now I know how to spell CHamfer. Thanks!

[C7AR15]

I beleive in tumbling the brass till it's really shiny.

But not just for cosmetic reasons - Any crack or split will immediately become visible on your cases. (which then are crushed and tossed)

So it really is your first step to reloading safe ammo.

[PawPaw]

Originally Posted by C7AR15

I beleive in tumbling the brass till it's really shiny.

I've been reloading for two decades and have never owned a tumbler. I've never seen the use for one. Lots of folks like them, but I'm not convinced that tumbling is a necessary part of reloading.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Maseh2os

The only reason I was leaning toward the Redding body die in place of the Lee FL die that comes in the deluxe kit is that I have noticed some saying that a normal FL sizing die can mess up the neck dimensions and concentricity that you have been preserving by neck sizing.

Earlier you said you weren't interested in insanely tight groups. The use of separate dies and neck sizing are normally steps taken to achieve, if not insanely, then, at least, better than normally tight groups. If you're not going to use a Redding Competition Seating Die or the Forster Bench Rest Seating Die (the two best), you may find seating in the dead length die undoes the advantage of your two-step sizing effort by pushing the bullet in slightly cocked. I think that Lee seating die is a better design than the standard fixed stem dies because it's seater floats, but it's not as effective as those two full length sliding sleeve types I mentioned. At least, not according to my concentricity gauge.

You are correct that you don't want to use a standard full length die and a neck die, both, as that overworks and reworks the neck brass. The expander in the standard die can pull the necks off-axis, but if you remove the expander the neck will come out too small inside. The ID of the neck sizing portion of a standard die is chosen for the thinnest in-spec neck wall, and thus over-resizes average neck walls and thick neck walls. That's why the expander exists; to undo the over-resizing. The collet die never has that problem in the first place because it controls the neck ID rather than the neck OD as the standard FL die does, but if you want to feed the neck sized stuff reliably from a magazine, you have to use the body die, too, and push the shoulder back at least 0.002". Apparently, that's your current plan.

Another die you could consider is the RCBS X-die, which full length resizes the body, but uses a mandrel for the neck and no expander. That might get you what you want in one step. You have to trim your cases to minimum length once before you use it. It then allows the case to grow back to standard trim length, but no further, so you never have to trim them again. (To trim to minimum with the Lee trimmers, you'll have to take 0.010" off the length of the pin on the trimmer's length gauge that goes through the flash hole.)

So the approach you propose will work fine, but until you get the fancy seating die, it may not gain you anything over what a standard FL die does for you. But it wont' hurt anything, either, if you want to try it that way.

You might want to read through Dan Newberry's load development system. He typically uses no special tools, but frequently gets 1/2 moa groups anyway.

P.S. Sorting cases by headstamp is sometimes required because different makers don't make the brass with the same internal capacity. That affects pressure, so it can change barrel time. In some instances the pressure difference can be significant, as ins .300 Win mag and .308 Winchester, for which maker-to-maker brass specs differ significantly. I don't know about your chambering in this regard, but weighing cases on a scale is a quick check. I don't like to see more than about 5 grains difference between case wights. For accuracy loads, assuming a load developed with a .6 grain charge spread tolerance, like the Newberry OCW loads, I try to keep it to 3 grains.

[Sevens]

That "boolit" term? I detest that.

First time I saw it, I didn't care for it either. I thought it was similar to teenage girls texting on their phone.

I don't cast my own but it seems to me that the term "boolit" is a casting term that reflects the idea that it's a home-brewed slug from someone's casting pot.

Because of that, the term "boolit" doesn't bother me so much... and because I don't cast my own, I don't need to use the term.

[Colorado Redneck]

Before seating the bullets, I always, I mean ALWAYS check to see there is a powder charge in each case. No sense have a squib load in a batch somewhere. The primer by itself will likely push the bullet into the barrel, and the next round will make a mess of things for you. Will probably ruin your day. It takes a few seconds to hold the reloading block under a good light and look down into each case.

Safety first! That way you can keep on having fun.

[maseh2os]

Well, based on the information I gathered in this and other discussions, I have so far ordered: Lee deluxe die set and factory crimp die. This gives me the FL sizing die, the neck collet die, the seating die, and a crimp die. I still may get the Redding body die just to avoid pulling on the neck with the standard FL die if I don't need to for any reason. I'm still not sure whether I'll start by making some loads with FL sizing or jump right into the neck sizing only for a bit.

Another die you could consider is the RCBS X-die

I hadn't really considered the X-die, but now you've got me looking at it again. I guess the way I understand it, it works almost like a body die and collet die put together. Full length body resize while the neck is compressed over a mandrel and not pulled out by an expander. On paper this seems like the best possible option out there, but people talking about it seem so split over how it actually works (i.e. where does the brass go if not up?) and whether or not it actually extends case life. Anybody got the answers?

until you get the fancy seating die, it may not gain you anything over what a standard FL die does for you

I'm sure you're right on that account. Unfortunately they are pretty proud of those seating dies and aren't exactly giving them away! I'll probably end up getting one, but only after I've spent much more on other tools only to find out they can't help me as much as one of those would.

I must say this is turning out to be a much more difficult task than I had previously believed it would be. I'm probably over-complicating it much more than I need to.

[maseh2os]

Well you talked me into it. Add to the list of items in the mail on the way to my front door: Redding Body Die, Redding Competition Seating Die. Should probably put my wedding ring on Craigslist....

[Nevmavrick]

I'm surprised that NONE of the long-time reloaders have pointed out that you can't crimp a bullet that doesn't have a cannalure. CAN'T may not quite be right as the Lee die will crimp the bullet and squash the jacket, the advantage(?) is that you can crimp the bullet where it fits (OAL) your rifle. IMHO, "mooshing" the bullet never does any good.
Most .25 bullets don't have cannalures, as they are not needed in bolt-guns.
Without the Lee die, crimping will not help raise pressures. That only works, maybe, in revolvers.
Have fun,
Gene

[tobnpr]

One thing I do for accuracy, which is not really difficult, is use a OAL gauge and Bullet Comparator (mine are Hornady) to load each bullet type to the length that's best for your rifle- which you'll find after some load work-up.

This is generally considered better than just loading to an OAL specified in the book- and measures from the ogive, and not to the meplat of the bullet for more consistency.