223 brass prep - problems getting good head

Lilswede1 · December 13, 2008, 12:32 AM

Got a batch of LC brass from Gib and am in the process of prepping it.
First thing I do is drop it in the Wilson Case Gauge to check it out. 80% looks great but 10% of the cases have a head that is .001 - 004" oversize.
These cases are oblong.
I am trying to figure out a way to salvage them.
First I put the case if my 1/2 drill and used a file. This method works but takes too much off the good side of the case.
Tried marking the spot on the head that is bad (using dial indicator) and then using a nail file to take the high spots down. This also works but is very time consuming.
I would throw out the brass but we are talking about as many as 400 cases so I'm hoping someone in here has a solution.

armedtotheteeth · December 13, 2008, 12:38 AM

can you resize them in your die??
I dont have a case gauge. I just smack them in the die and then trim them. I fired probably around 4-5000 out of my Ar15 with no problems. ( not to mention the bazillions of M1 carbine, 303, 30-06, 38,45, 9MM
and on and on.
Im not even sure of your problem. I guess it is too late for me, I need to wander off to get horizontal

DaveInPA · December 13, 2008, 12:41 AM

Yeah, I agree with armedtotheteeth. I take my .223 brass, lube it, resize it, trim it, and load it. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

HiBC · December 13, 2008, 12:46 AM

Are you serious?Probably you should abandon all the filing and the filed brass.
If you run them all the way into a full length sizing die and they are oversize....hmmm.Have the dies had a lot of use?Could be the dies are worn out.Next step might be small base dies.

Lavid2002 · December 13, 2008, 12:48 AM

Quote:

223 brass prep - problems getting good head

The ladies tell me its all in the tongue.

armedtotheteeth · December 13, 2008, 12:54 AM

yeah, your making it to complicated.
Size the brass all the way down. ( My RCBS press handle actually "cams over" as the shell holder actually hits the die.
The first firing in my gun usually fixes and brass problems.
If the Bolt will close, and the bullet is not hitting the lands, and you dont have 2 bullets in the bore, and you have stayed within powder charge limits, and you have the proper CALIBER bullet in the bore.. you will not blow yourself up.
I wont bother telling yall about the 30-06 that I somehow stuffed 303 ( actually .311) bullets into.

Lilswede1 · December 13, 2008, 09:11 AM

Yes, I tried resizing this brass but neither the FL die on the Dillon 550B Progressive or the Redding FL die on the single stage go down to the head.
On closer inspection of the defective cases it appears the only part of the case that is oversize is the head behind the extractor groove. Maybe this is not a big problem as the case will fit into the .223 CZ 527 bolt without hang-ups. But they will not drop down into the Wilson Case Guage - they stop at the Head.
Being new to rifle reloading I am going by the sage wisdom of the statement "if it will fit into the Case Guage, it will fit into the gun chamber".
Well, these cases don't and thus here I am. They fit one but not the other.

armedtotheteeth · December 13, 2008, 09:27 AM

Hmmm, i see your problem young Padawan , yet I am of no help to you. You must find a wizer ( Or closer ) Jedi than myself to fix your problem.

Alleykat · December 13, 2008, 09:45 AM

First, the OP apparently doesn't understand the purpose of the Wilson case gage...it's not a "chamber-proofing" gage, like straightwall handgun case gages.

You only use the Wilson gage to determine whether the shoulder has been properly bumped during sizing for proper headspace, and to see if the case needs trimming. There's absolutely no point in dropping an unsized case into a Wilson case gage.

On-the-other-hand, I was totally confused by the OP's starting sentence of his other thread, involving headspace, relative to a case's being "too long."

30Cal · December 13, 2008, 12:53 PM

Size, trim and check in your case gage to make sure the shoulder is set properly. There are going to be subtle issues with some, but they'll almost certainly chamber and fire just fine.

Red_Eagle · December 13, 2008, 01:03 PM

It sounds like they were probably fired out of an M-249 machine gun.

DaveInPA · December 13, 2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

It sounds like they were probably fired out of an M-249 machine gun.

Beat me too it. Sounds like these were SAW ammo in their former life.

Lilswede1 · December 13, 2008, 07:04 PM

I have resized these cases and use the Wilson Gauge to check headspace but these cases stop where the head would normally drop slightly into the guage.
So I use the RCBS Precision Mic Gauge to verify headspace - just not as efficient.
Problem solved - I hope.

snuffy · December 13, 2008, 09:04 PM

I'm confused with your terminology. By "head" are you referring to the RIM? If so then forget about it! The rim has nothing to do with whether or not the round will fit/fire in your bolt gun. Since it never enters the chamber, it is only held by the bolt face and extractor.

**Unclenick** · December 13, 2008, 10:15 PM

If I understand correctly, the casehead itself is slightly bulged starting just above the extractor groove. Some weapons, such as lever guns and some full auto weapons, will actually have slightly oblong chamber mouths that have been opened to facilitate feeding. This leads to producing a bulged lobe on the heads of fired cases where they sat over the extra cut. Failure to remove that lobe can impede feeding of a reloaded round, which is why some lever guns can require you to use a small base die that will bring that case back near original size.

If you get a small base die, use it on those cases with lobes once. Maybe twice. You can then go to a normal sizing die after that, as the small base die will have done all it can. Using the normal dies will extend case life over using the small base die all the time, unless your chamber is very tight.

Good luck with it.

amamnn · December 14, 2008, 03:47 PM

-----or don't buy bulk military brass.....................

farnorthdan · December 15, 2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

223 brass prep - problems getting good head

The ladies tell me its all in the tongue.

You beat me to it......

DS

Powderman · December 15, 2008, 04:33 AM

What you might be looking for is here:

http://www.magmaengineering.com/inde...emart&Itemid=1

This is an arbor press that pushes the ENTIRE case through a die, thus sizing everything--even the rim--to proper diameters. It's kinda pricey, though--over $300 for the press alone, and additional amounts for the dies.

snuffy · December 15, 2008, 01:02 PM

I don't think that would work for bottle necked rifle cases.

http://www.magmaengineering.com/inde...emart&Itemid=1

Since the .223 and other rifle cases are tapered, they could not be held straight in any die to be pushed all-the-way-through. Then only the head and rim would be sized IF they could be held straight.

They give so little info on/in that link, I would never order anything from them, without a phone call first! Would it hurt them to do a little write up on how it works?

rg1 · December 15, 2008, 02:00 PM

That's about the ratio of M16 fired cases to SAW fired cases I got. About 400 SAW cases per 1000. The rims of the SAW fired cases were bent and dinged up. The cases were sound but did have rim damage. Time consuming and tedious but I filed the case heads flat where they were bent and filed down marks from the outer edge of the rim. Avoid SAW brass unless you don't mind a little more case prep. The repair needs to be done before sizing.

December 13, 2008, 12:32 AM	#1
Lilswede1 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2008 Location: NW Wash State Posts: 216	223 brass prep - problems getting good head Got a batch of LC brass from Gib and am in the process of prepping it. First thing I do is drop it in the Wilson Case Gauge to check it out. 80% looks great but 10% of the cases have a head that is .001 - 004" oversize. These cases are oblong. I am trying to figure out a way to salvage them. First I put the case if my 1/2 drill and used a file. This method works but takes too much off the good side of the case. Tried marking the spot on the head that is bad (using dial indicator) and then using a nail file to take the high spots down. This also works but is very time consuming. I would throw out the brass but we are talking about as many as 400 cases so I'm hoping someone in here has a solution.

December 13, 2008, 09:11 AM	#7
Lilswede1 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2008 Location: NW Wash State Posts: 216	I should have been more explicit Yes, I tried resizing this brass but neither the FL die on the Dillon 550B Progressive or the Redding FL die on the single stage go down to the head. On closer inspection of the defective cases it appears the only part of the case that is oversize is the head behind the extractor groove. Maybe this is not a big problem as the case will fit into the .223 CZ 527 bolt without hang-ups. But they will not drop down into the Wilson Case Guage - they stop at the Head. Being new to rifle reloading I am going by the sage wisdom of the statement "if it will fit into the Case Guage, it will fit into the gun chamber". Well, these cases don't and thus here I am. They fit one but not the other.

December 13, 2008, 01:03 PM	#11
Red_Eagle Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2007 Location: Western NY Posts: 598	It sounds like they were probably fired out of an M-249 machine gun. __________________ My Calibers: 22 Hornet, 223 Rem, 22-250, 243 Win, 270 Win, 280 Remington Ackley Improved, 30-30, 308 Win, 30-06, 300 Winchester magnum, 7.62x39mm, 380 Auto, 9mm Parabellum, 38 Special, 357 magnum, 40 S&W, 10mm Auto, 45 GAP, 45 Auto, 12 & 20 Guage

December 13, 2008, 07:04 PM	#13
Lilswede1 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2008 Location: NW Wash State Posts: 216	I reiterate I have resized these cases and use the Wilson Gauge to check headspace but these cases stop where the head would normally drop slightly into the guage. So I use the RCBS Precision Mic Gauge to verify headspace - just not as efficient. Problem solved - I hope.

December 13, 2008, 09:04 PM	#14
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	I'm confused with your terminology. By "head" are you referring to the RIM? If so then forget about it! The rim has nothing to do with whether or not the round will fit/fire in your bolt gun. Since it never enters the chamber, it is only held by the bolt face and extractor. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

December 13, 2008, 12:38 AM	#2
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	can you resize them in your die?? I dont have a case gauge. I just smack them in the die and then trim them. I fired probably around 4-5000 out of my Ar15 with no problems. ( not to mention the bazillions of M1 carbine, 303, 30-06, 38,45, 9MM and on and on. Im not even sure of your problem. I guess it is too late for me, I need to wander off to get horizontal

December 13, 2008, 12:41 AM	#3
DaveInPA Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Berks County, PA Posts: 1,106	Yeah, I agree with armedtotheteeth. I take my .223 brass, lube it, resize it, trim it, and load it. Don't make it harder than it needs to be.

December 13, 2008, 12:46 AM	#4
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,287	Are you serious?Probably you should abandon all the filing and the filed brass. If you run them all the way into a full length sizing die and they are oversize....hmmm.Have the dies had a lot of use?Could be the dies are worn out.Next step might be small base dies.

December 13, 2008, 12:54 AM	#6
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	yeah, your making it to complicated. Size the brass all the way down. ( My RCBS press handle actually "cams over" as the shell holder actually hits the die. The first firing in my gun usually fixes and brass problems. If the Bolt will close, and the bullet is not hitting the lands, and you dont have 2 bullets in the bore, and you have stayed within powder charge limits, and you have the proper CALIBER bullet in the bore.. you will not blow yourself up. I wont bother telling yall about the 30-06 that I somehow stuffed 303 ( actually .311) bullets into.

December 13, 2008, 09:27 AM	#8
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	Hmmm, i see your problem young Padawan , yet I am of no help to you. You must find a wizer ( Or closer ) Jedi than myself to fix your problem.

December 13, 2008, 09:45 AM	#9
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	First, the OP apparently doesn't understand the purpose of the Wilson case gage...it's not a "chamber-proofing" gage, like straightwall handgun case gages. You only use the Wilson gage to determine whether the shoulder has been properly bumped during sizing for proper headspace, and to see if the case needs trimming. There's absolutely no point in dropping an unsized case into a Wilson case gage. On-the-other-hand, I was totally confused by the OP's starting sentence of his other thread, involving headspace, relative to a case's being "too long."

December 13, 2008, 12:53 PM	#10
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	Size, trim and check in your case gage to make sure the shoulder is set properly. There are going to be subtle issues with some, but they'll almost certainly chamber and fire just fine.

December 13, 2008, 10:15 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	If I understand correctly, the casehead itself is slightly bulged starting just above the extractor groove. Some weapons, such as lever guns and some full auto weapons, will actually have slightly oblong chamber mouths that have been opened to facilitate feeding. This leads to producing a bulged lobe on the heads of fired cases where they sat over the extra cut. Failure to remove that lobe can impede feeding of a reloaded round, which is why some lever guns can require you to use a small base die that will bring that case back near original size. If you get a small base die, use it on those cases with lobes once. Maybe twice. You can then go to a normal sizing die after that, as the small base die will have done all it can. Using the normal dies will extend case life over using the small base die all the time, unless your chamber is very tight. Good luck with it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 14, 2008, 03:47 PM	#16
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	-----or don't buy bulk military brass..................... __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

December 15, 2008, 04:33 AM	#18
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	What you might be looking for is here: http://www.magmaengineering.com/inde...emart&Itemid=1 This is an arbor press that pushes the ENTIRE case through a die, thus sizing everything--even the rim--to proper diameters. It's kinda pricey, though--over $300 for the press alone, and additional amounts for the dies.

December 15, 2008, 01:02 PM	#19
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	I don't think that would work for bottle necked rifle cases. http://www.magmaengineering.com/inde...emart&Itemid=1 Since the .223 and other rifle cases are tapered, they could not be held straight in any die to be pushed all-the-way-through. Then only the head and rim would be sized IF they could be held straight. They give so little info on/in that link, I would never order anything from them, without a phone call first! Would it hurt them to do a little write up on how it works? __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

December 15, 2008, 02:00 PM	#20
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	That's about the ratio of M16 fired cases to SAW fired cases I got. About 400 SAW cases per 1000. The rims of the SAW fired cases were bent and dinged up. The cases were sound but did have rim damage. Time consuming and tedious but I filed the case heads flat where they were bent and filed down marks from the outer edge of the rim. Avoid SAW brass unless you don't mind a little more case prep. The repair needs to be done before sizing.