Armed Citizen: Oklahoma Pharmacist Defends Employees from Robbers - Page 7

MrCleanOK · May 27, 2009, 06:53 PM

http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/24432753001

Looks like the pharmacist has some serious splaining to do. While all of the facts do not make themselves clear from the video, I am inclined to believe that the shots fired after the perp was on the ground were not necessary to prevent further bodily harm. But, that's just my hunch. Will be interesting to see what a judge and jury have to say about it.

Playboypenguin · May 27, 2009, 07:03 PM

After viewing the video tape; IMHO, this man is going to jail for a very long time...and deservedly so.

He went beyond dutiful citizen defending himself and others and crossed over to cold blooded killer with his actions after re-entering the business. :barf:

wickedrider · May 27, 2009, 07:10 PM

When he came back in the store did he change mags? I never saw "The Judge".

**OldMarksman** · May 27, 2009, 07:18 PM

It is amazing to me how many people who were not present and who have not been presented with either evidence or testimony believe it appropriate to judge...

Playboypenguin · May 27, 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

It is amazing to me how many people who were not present and who have not been presented with either evidence or testimony believe it appropriate to judge...

You don't consider video tape of the event as evidence?

Brian Pfleuger · May 27, 2009, 07:22 PM

Quote:

It is amazing to me how many people who were not present and who have not been presented with either evidence or testimony believe it appropriate to judge...

"not been presented with evidence"? Did you watch the video? That's pretty damning.

Besides, this isn't a court room. It's entirely appropriate for us to pass judgement. "Innocent until proven guilty" is for judges and juries, not internet forums.

**OldMarksman** · May 27, 2009, 08:01 PM

The video tape does not show everything that happened.

Yes, it looks very damning for the shooter, but there have been some rather convincing videos that proved to be very misleading indeed.

Don't get me wrong--I am not assuming that the shooter was justified; nor do I say that a person on the floor is still a "threat" as long as he is alive.

Good idea to hear the testimony and let both sides describe their views of the video tape and provide some sworn testimony.

Wildalaska · May 27, 2009, 08:13 PM

The affidavit of probable cause:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.news...armdoc0001.pdf

I will refrain from any other comment

WildsomuchfrothisthreadAlaska ™

fatboy02 · May 27, 2009, 08:16 PM

After seeing the video I would have to say leagally it looks like he is screwed.

I still personally think that the perps should loose all right when they commit a crime but we all know that is not the case.

From what is on the video he went way to far. Does anyone know if there has been anything else out there on this? has he been arrested ?

Brian Pfleuger · May 27, 2009, 08:19 PM

So does anybody know if it might be possible to show that the head wound would have been fatal and the other shots were non-consequential? Perhaps the charge would be reduced.... not saying I think it should but what his lawyer might be thinking.

wickedrider · May 27, 2009, 08:35 PM

After hearing about the murder charge, I initially thought that the charge would be reduced to manslaughter, heat of passion. But after the video, that might be problematic. He looked at the BG before he chased the other guy, looked at him again as he walked to the corner. Did something, I think, though I cannot see, he reloaded. Walked back over to the BG and shot the BG again.

DonR101395 · May 27, 2009, 08:45 PM

Based on the initial report I supported the guy; after viewing the tape I think he's he's screwed. I still think the bad guys got what they deserved, but the shooter screwed up.

csmsss · May 27, 2009, 08:59 PM

Obviously, the video paints a different portrait of the events than the initial news article and the pharmacist's statements to the media present. However, we do not see the robber at all once he goes down, and it's possible he did in fact attempt to get up once the pharmacist approached him.

When all's said and done, I believe you will see a plea agreement to something like manslaughter, and an enormous civil judgment against the pharmacist.

surg_res · May 27, 2009, 09:12 PM

That guy didn't look too crippled to me, a bit slower than the 16 year-old but not so crippled--as I would use the term.

Was he worried about paying the kid's medical bills or what? Honestly, I'd have to say that I'd be scared s---less if someone just shot me, but at least I'd look nervous on my own video surveillance and not like I was casually reloading for the gun range.

Of course we can't see the dead guy. On trauma call, I've discharged people who have been shot or stabbed directly home from the ER. You'd be surprised by how much damage the body will take before it prevents someone from pulling a trigger on you (even with GSWs to the head). As mentioned earlier in the thread, the skull is a tough shell and it can take a not-so-perfect shot and protect the brain quite well, leaving a person capable of finishing their mission.

I have to say that we all live in a really horrible world when a professional veteran who is just trying to make a living goes to prison for life for just doing his job, protecting himself, and being robbed and shot by two violent and dangerous criminals. I would testify that adrenaline alone could account for his poor judgement in finishing-off the suspect, if the threat were in fact neutralized. I don't think he was right, but I'd hate to see him become the loser for a situation he didn't create.

Dallas Jack · May 27, 2009, 09:14 PM

Whether the shooting was justified or not he did one thing that will make it difficult for his lawyer to present a proper defense.

He talked. He talked to the cops. He talked to the press. Looks like he talked to anyone that would listen.

Do not remember where I got this.

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik"]

Dallas Jack

BTW: This post is not ment to condone or condem just state a simple but fatal error.

Wildalaska · May 27, 2009, 10:12 PM

Quote:

I still think the bad guys got what they deserved, but the shooter screwed up.

No, the one bad guy didnt. If all is at it appears, he was executed.

Quote:

I have to say that we all live in a really horrible world when a professional veteran who is just trying to make a living goes to prison for life for just doing his job, protecting himself, and being robbed and shot by two violent and dangerous criminals. I would testify that adrenaline alone could account for his poor judgement in finishing-off the suspect, if the threat were in fact neutralized. I don't think he was right, but I'd hate to see him become the loser for a situation he didn't create.

If all is at it appears, the pharmacist is a murdering scumbag who is as violent and dangerous a criminal as the guys he shot.

If all is as it appears and he gets off, we all live in really horrible world.

Every person is responsible for his or her own actions.

And with that you guys can continue.

Wildkeepinmindcap'ncharliesadmonitionAlaska TM

DonR101395 · May 27, 2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

No, the one bad guy didnt. If all is at it appears, he was executed.

Just stating my opinion, which is, he got what he deserved. He initiated the interaction and messed with the wrong guy. He decided his fate when he started pointing guns at people. The pharmacist didn't start the hunting trip, but did indeed end it. I have no sympathy for the criminal.
IMO, the two mistakes the pharmacist made were having video and talking to the police and media.
Please continue with your responsible gun owner rhetoric etc. It will change nothing about how I feel about criminals dieing at their chosen profession.

OuTcAsT · May 27, 2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

the three mistakes the pharmacist made were committing murder,having video, and talking to the police and media.

This looks about right.

fixxervi6 · May 27, 2009, 10:54 PM

Most likely an older person talked the 16 year old into a situation that got him killed, I call that sad.

instead of the older person (ok assuming the one with the gun was older)getting killed the younger one paid the bigger price

Situations like this no one wins, 16 year old got his life cut short and a guy that started out defending himself turned into a murderer.

In my opinion a better turn out would have been the perp with the gun got a solid one between the eyes, the 16 year old gave up and in the long run turned his life around.

dead is dead tho, no changing what happened now.

buck9 · May 27, 2009, 11:14 PM

Seeing the video helps me about knowing when enough is enough. A head shot and the bg is down and I can walk around and do other things? Sure I would watch him and make sure he didn't do anything bad but I can not see myself just pumping him full of lead? I will give you this It wasn't me I wasn't there in the heat of the moment but I still think I would have just watched him? May God bless me that I never have to take a life but if I have to my he bless me with the skill to do it?

supergas452M · May 27, 2009, 11:26 PM

You shoot to stop the threat. When the threat is stopped so is the shooting.

No where in this video did the kid who was pulling a mask over his head, show a gun. The initial shooting of him was justified, he was obviously part of an armed robbery. The execution after the pharmacist reentered the store is gonna put him (the pharmacist) away for a long time. If you participate in an armed robbery and you die as a result, I will shed no tears for you, period. This pharmacist went too far and will pay dearly as a result. My biggest regret about this situation is the other BG is still alive. I am sure he will be brought in, serve a few years and be let back out into society to prey again. If he pulls this again, hopefully he will pay the ultimate price of an intended victims' well placed shot.

Lesson learned by all of us I hope.

Kyo · May 27, 2009, 11:29 PM

he'll walk. that wasn't an execution, that was making sure the threat was gone. and we can't tell if the kid was getting up or not

JustDreadful · May 27, 2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

I still think the bad guys got what they deserved, but the shooter screwed up.

Quote:

No, the one bad guy didnt. If all is at it appears, he was executed.

Which is what he deserved.

Quote:

If all is at it appears, the pharmacist is a murdering scumbag who is as violent and dangerous a criminal as the guys he shot.

This may also be true.

Sometimes, there are no good guys.

buck9 · May 28, 2009, 12:13 AM

My brother I hope not ? If we are allowed to do what I saw in the video take your time go change weapons come back and fire five more shots into the b/g and the jury will let you go? Is that what we want? Kill the B/G and no questions asked? IMHO when the threat is over STOP?

Kyo · May 28, 2009, 12:27 AM

is that what we want? i don't know. you tell me. is that what you want?
Lets really look at it. How do we know next time that dead kid wouldn't have that gun and blast someone away? How many potential lives don't have to be taken cause the guy died? Do we really know?
Not to get religious here, but this goes way back in the day where if you try to kill me I get to kill you back. Its like a karma thing. Some robbers walk in with a gun, your WIFE is there, other people are there, and they could have killed you, your wife and others. You aren't gonna be mad enough to kill a guy? It might not be politically correct but I feel the kid got what he deserved.
You want to play gangster you are gonna die. That is what we teach kids right? I even think he should get a darwin award for putting on a mask during a robbery and getting shot in the head for it cause he just stood there.

in short, yes if you come into my house pointing guns, and saying im gonna die, I will shoot you until you are dead. I won't listen when you say don't shoot, I won't wait for you to drop your gun, and I won't wait for you to say anything, get back up, or even run. You forgo mercy when you come in as a predator. This is the basis of nature and survival. Animals don't show mercy when something tries to threaten them. Why should you? So you can get killed for it?

May 27, 2009, 07:03 PM	#152
Playboypenguin Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Great Pacific Northwest Posts: 11,515	After viewing the video tape; IMHO, this man is going to jail for a very long time...and deservedly so. He went beyond dutiful citizen defending himself and others and crossed over to cold blooded killer with his actions after re-entering the business. :barf: Last edited by Playboypenguin; May 27, 2009 at 07:18 PM.

May 27, 2009, 08:19 PM	#160
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	So does anybody know if it might be possible to show that the head wound would have been fatal and the other shots were non-consequential? Perhaps the charge would be reduced.... not saying I think it should but what his lawyer might be thinking. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

May 27, 2009, 08:45 PM	#162
DonR101395 Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: NWFL Posts: 3,031	Based on the initial report I supported the guy; after viewing the tape I think he's he's screwed. I still think the bad guys got what they deserved, but the shooter screwed up. Last edited by DonR101395; May 27, 2009 at 09:00 PM.

May 27, 2009, 09:12 PM	#164
surg_res Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2005 Location: Texas, 5th GEN! Posts: 621	That guy didn't look too crippled to me, a bit slower than the 16 year-old but not so crippled--as I would use the term. Was he worried about paying the kid's medical bills or what? Honestly, I'd have to say that I'd be scared s---less if someone just shot me, but at least I'd look nervous on my own video surveillance and not like I was casually reloading for the gun range. Of course we can't see the dead guy. On trauma call, I've discharged people who have been shot or stabbed directly home from the ER. You'd be surprised by how much damage the body will take before it prevents someone from pulling a trigger on you (even with GSWs to the head). As mentioned earlier in the thread, the skull is a tough shell and it can take a not-so-perfect shot and protect the brain quite well, leaving a person capable of finishing their mission. I have to say that we all live in a really horrible world when a professional veteran who is just trying to make a living goes to prison for life for just doing his job, protecting himself, and being robbed and shot by two violent and dangerous criminals. I would testify that adrenaline alone could account for his poor judgement in finishing-off the suspect, if the threat were in fact neutralized. I don't think he was right, but I'd hate to see him become the loser for a situation he didn't create. __________________ ----

May 27, 2009, 09:14 PM	#165
Dallas Jack Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2005 Location: Dallas Posts: 386	Whether the shooting was justified or not he did one thing that will make it difficult for his lawyer to present a proper defense. He talked. He talked to the cops. He talked to the press. Looks like he talked to anyone that would listen. Do not remember where I got this. "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik"] Dallas Jack BTW: This post is not ment to condone or condem just state a simple but fatal error. Last edited by Dallas Jack; May 27, 2009 at 09:21 PM.

May 27, 2009, 06:53 PM	#151
MrCleanOK Member Join Date: October 18, 2007 Posts: 30	http://newsok.com/multimedia/video/24432753001 Looks like the pharmacist has some serious splaining to do. While all of the facts do not make themselves clear from the video, I am inclined to believe that the shots fired after the perp was on the ground were not necessary to prevent further bodily harm. But, that's just my hunch. Will be interesting to see what a judge and jury have to say about it.

May 27, 2009, 07:10 PM	#153
wickedrider Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Posts: 50	When he came back in the store did he change mags? I never saw "The Judge".

May 27, 2009, 07:18 PM	#154
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	It is amazing to me how many people who were not present and who have not been presented with either evidence or testimony believe it appropriate to judge...

May 27, 2009, 08:01 PM	#157
OldMarksman Staff Join Date: June 8, 2008 Posts: 4,022	The video tape does not show everything that happened. Yes, it looks very damning for the shooter, but there have been some rather convincing videos that proved to be very misleading indeed. Don't get me wrong--I am not assuming that the shooter was justified; nor do I say that a person on the floor is still a "threat" as long as he is alive. Good idea to hear the testimony and let both sides describe their views of the video tape and provide some sworn testimony.

May 27, 2009, 08:13 PM	#158
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	The affidavit of probable cause: http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.news...armdoc0001.pdf I will refrain from any other comment WildsomuchfrothisthreadAlaska ™

May 27, 2009, 08:16 PM	#159
fatboy02 Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Olivet, MI Posts: 163	After seeing the video I would have to say leagally it looks like he is screwed. I still personally think that the perps should loose all right when they commit a crime but we all know that is not the case. From what is on the video he went way to far. Does anyone know if there has been anything else out there on this? has he been arrested ?

May 27, 2009, 08:35 PM	#161
wickedrider Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Posts: 50	After hearing about the murder charge, I initially thought that the charge would be reduced to manslaughter, heat of passion. But after the video, that might be problematic. He looked at the BG before he chased the other guy, looked at him again as he walked to the corner. Did something, I think, though I cannot see, he reloaded. Walked back over to the BG and shot the BG again.

May 27, 2009, 08:59 PM	#163
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Obviously, the video paints a different portrait of the events than the initial news article and the pharmacist's statements to the media present. However, we do not see the robber at all once he goes down, and it's possible he did in fact attempt to get up once the pharmacist approached him. When all's said and done, I believe you will see a plea agreement to something like manslaughter, and an enormous civil judgment against the pharmacist.

May 27, 2009, 10:54 PM	#169
fixxervi6 Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Posts: 91	Most likely an older person talked the 16 year old into a situation that got him killed, I call that sad. instead of the older person (ok assuming the one with the gun was older)getting killed the younger one paid the bigger price Situations like this no one wins, 16 year old got his life cut short and a guy that started out defending himself turned into a murderer. In my opinion a better turn out would have been the perp with the gun got a solid one between the eyes, the 16 year old gave up and in the long run turned his life around. dead is dead tho, no changing what happened now.

May 27, 2009, 11:14 PM	#170
buck9 Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 89	This realy helps me Seeing the video helps me about knowing when enough is enough. A head shot and the bg is down and I can walk around and do other things? Sure I would watch him and make sure he didn't do anything bad but I can not see myself just pumping him full of lead? I will give you this It wasn't me I wasn't there in the heat of the moment but I still think I would have just watched him? May God bless me that I never have to take a life but if I have to my he bless me with the skill to do it?

May 27, 2009, 11:26 PM	#171
supergas452M Junior member Join Date: December 7, 2008 Location: New Mexico Posts: 309	You shoot to stop the threat. When the threat is stopped so is the shooting. No where in this video did the kid who was pulling a mask over his head, show a gun. The initial shooting of him was justified, he was obviously part of an armed robbery. The execution after the pharmacist reentered the store is gonna put him (the pharmacist) away for a long time. If you participate in an armed robbery and you die as a result, I will shed no tears for you, period. This pharmacist went too far and will pay dearly as a result. My biggest regret about this situation is the other BG is still alive. I am sure he will be brought in, serve a few years and be let back out into society to prey again. If he pulls this again, hopefully he will pay the ultimate price of an intended victims' well placed shot. Lesson learned by all of us I hope.

May 27, 2009, 11:29 PM	#172
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	he'll walk. that wasn't an execution, that was making sure the threat was gone. and we can't tell if the kid was getting up or not

May 28, 2009, 12:13 AM	#174
buck9 Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 89	Kyo My brother I hope not ? If we are allowed to do what I saw in the video take your time go change weapons come back and fire five more shots into the b/g and the jury will let you go? Is that what we want? Kill the B/G and no questions asked? IMHO when the threat is over STOP?

May 28, 2009, 12:27 AM	#175
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	is that what we want? i don't know. you tell me. is that what you want? Lets really look at it. How do we know next time that dead kid wouldn't have that gun and blast someone away? How many potential lives don't have to be taken cause the guy died? Do we really know? Not to get religious here, but this goes way back in the day where if you try to kill me I get to kill you back. Its like a karma thing. Some robbers walk in with a gun, your WIFE is there, other people are there, and they could have killed you, your wife and others. You aren't gonna be mad enough to kill a guy? It might not be politically correct but I feel the kid got what he deserved. You want to play gangster you are gonna die. That is what we teach kids right? I even think he should get a darwin award for putting on a mask during a robbery and getting shot in the head for it cause he just stood there. in short, yes if you come into my house pointing guns, and saying im gonna die, I will shoot you until you are dead. I won't listen when you say don't shoot, I won't wait for you to drop your gun, and I won't wait for you to say anything, get back up, or even run. You forgo mercy when you come in as a predator. This is the basis of nature and survival. Animals don't show mercy when something tries to threaten them. Why should you? So you can get killed for it?