Your thoughts please......

[Perldog007]

If you were choosing between two schools - for certification of ccw (my new state has become "shall issue" since I moved here) and for refresher/additional training:

One school states that they will reschedule classes for inclement weather, but no refunds.


One school states that there is no additional charge for rain, and classes will not be cancelled.


All other things being equal - which do your prefer. I already know my preference, just curious about the thoughts of the fourm.

[ragwd]

It seems as though one has a in-door range and the other has a out-door range, (thank you captain obvious), I prefer outdoor ranges, the lighting issue with in-door ranges gets me.

[Perldog007]

It seems as though one has a in-door range and the other has a out-door range, (thank you captain obvious), I prefer outdoor ranges, the lighting issue with in-door ranges gets me.

My bad - they both shoot outdoors.

[Pahoo]

Obviously you are going to protect your investment. I'm curious as to what you have to pay for this training. My state requires this trainging and very tight on issuing certificates.

[Perldog007]

One school charges 130 USD for Va and FLa non resident training that meets requirements - they do a thorough job on paperwork and meet training specs.

The other charges 165 for training which meets VA, Fl, and UT requirements. Probably not to much help on the paperwork.

Given my past training (VA registered Armed Security Officer, CCW, and D.C. Armed SPO) I probably have enough paper lying about. But I believe in being current and thorough and getting as much training as I can afford.

I am the type of citizen that will buy a ruger and spend money on ammo, range fees, and classes that I don't need for any certification before I will buy a USP if that is all I can spare.

I like the attitude of the school that says trains regardless of weather. Bad things happen in cold, dark, rain, snow, etc.. Was wondering how every one else thinks along these lines. Or if quality of training even matters to most.

Have encountered folks who just want the cheapest training to get signed off, for work or ccw. Curious about the prevelant attitudes here.

[ragwd]

Owwww, so much for my assumptions.
Luckily, I found a CCW class taught by off duty police.
http://www.commencefire.com/
Then a few months later they had a advanced pistol class and I thought that was a much better class. CCW class was all about the laws and when lethal force is justified which is information definitely needed. But knowing how do it is really important after you know when to it. I am all about getting as much training as i can get, the certs don't mean anything to me but the trigger time in realistic situations is what I need. Shooting from cover, shooting while moving to cover. Through windows , through doors, while sitting in a car, how to walk to avoid the bounce while shooting. Thats the stuff we need as CCW permit holders. oops didn't mean to get off thread.

[Perldog007]

I don't think you are off topic at all. My expectation is that folks who are dedicated enough to spend keyboard time reading/posting in forums will care about the quality of their education.

I am curious to see if I have guessed right.

Could be that more will conserve $$ on mandatory training and have more to spend on weapons, ammo, range time. For me plinking at the range is recreational, but I will cut back on it to save for a class I want.

[ragwd]

A friend (Bubba) of mine who is totally into firearms and runs another forum ( gunchat.net ) gave me some good advice when I asked what he thought about the H&K usp compact .45. He said save your money and buy a glock with 20 mags and get as many courses as you can with the same money. Well I bought the H&K anyway and a bunch of mags but have been taking all the classes I can afford. It use to be that if we ever was attacked by immobile paper silhouettes, I would have been in good shape, now I feel more comfortable with moving and shooting and the rest. But his advice stuck. Hope I never need my training but train I will. Saving my money to go to either "front sight" or "gun sight". Both big schools, I really don't feel in peril I am just enjoying the training now, its fun. I do feel the class will be as good as the instructors so I try and research them.

[BikerRN]

I'm of the school of thought that it doesn't matter what the weather is, if it's a qualification day, you shoot.

I just qualified a couple of weeks ago, thirty mile an hour wind gust and rain in the afternoon. Let's just say, I'm qualified.

Biker

[starshooter231]

school number 2 (classes not cancelled). When I took my training it was 28 degrees outside, a foot of snow, and more falling. It was the same price as an indoor range class but like someone else has stated you don't know when you will NEED to use it. Just my opinion.

[Justme]

Personally I think that for CCW classes the shooting part is the least important, especially for people with experience. Laws, attitude and such are the more important. I'd take the class taught by a lawyer over one taught by a handgun tactician any day. But that's just me.

[ragwd]

+1 Justme, the ccw should be all about the law. The class i took the range time was just to prove you could hit the side of a barn from the inside. We shot from the ready position and i dont think we can count on getting that advantage in real life. Out of 30 people no one failed the range requirements. But after we know when to draw we should know how to draw and fire. Massad Ayoob has some good books on the subject "In The Gravest Extreme" and "StressFire".

[obxned]

Seems like there are a lot of very experienced shooters doing these courses to qualify for a permit. They don't gain much from the shooting part of the course - it's just tooooo easy and time limits way too generous. At least it is fun and relaxing after a day sitting in class.

Then there are relatively new shooters who may gain something from the shooting part, although when I took the class there was a gentleman there with his first pistol, a Hi-Point .45, and he qualified easily with his first 100 rounds through that gun.

The class room part about the laws and your personal responsibilities is the heart and soul of the course! Even if you have studied the laws it is good to have them drummed into your head again.

I would see if one class has a better instructor than the other rather than worry about shooting in the rain, wind, or snow.

[pax]

Guys, the thing to remember with state-mandated CCW classes is that they are not really intended to help people develop the skills necessary to save their own lives. They are intended to assure that everyone who has a permit 1) knows what the laws are, and 2) is minimally capable of not shooting the guy next to them on accident.

If you're concerned about developing the skills to protect yourself, you need a class designed to help you do that. The state-mandated CCW classes, though, fill a different niche entirely -- skills development is a nice bonus from a good instructor, but the not the goal of the law which requires that class.

pax

[Tanzer]

One school states that there is no additional charge for rain, and classes will not be cancelled.

Maybe I'm missing something in the wording. Will someone else charge you extra if it does rain? I ask this because they just wouldn't do that around here. Perhaps we're not as organized up here in RI. The way I've always seen it relates to Pax's reply.
Here, you need a skills test on an AMY-L target, and a "statement of need". Neighboring states don't care if you can hit the broad side of a barn, but require basic NRA training. In neither case do they concern themselves with improving your personal tactics and training (seems silly now that I'm typing it).
For personal training, you seek your own instructor/school. In a way, this works. Being a small state of the "who you know" general philosophy, a little homework and shop-talk can bring you to a well-qualified and well-connected instructor. This may seem a bit alien to some, but it's the way it's done here. Not in the "network"? Good out of state schools are no more than two hours away.
Anyhow, philosophy-wise, I'd go with the rain or shine school.

[Perldog007]

I think the "no extra charge" is an expression of the sense of humor and relaxed atmosphere they profess to offer.

My guess was that most here would opt for the rain or shine outfit. So much training and even more reading over the years has emphasized that one can't make an appointment to have an emergency in most cases.

Years ago I was puzzled about an advanced first aid/ CPR class that was supposed to be held outside being scratched when it turned out to be much colder than expected. I remember wondering if people only needed help during nice weather.

[Justme]

Well, eventually people have to drive in winter weather in most states, but I doubt anyone would suggest that this would be the best time to teach 15 and 16 year olds how to drive.

[Perldog007]

Well, eventually people have to drive in winter weather in most states, but I doubt anyone would suggest that this would be the best time to teach 15 and 16 year olds how to drive.

Actually, I think night driving and driving in inclement weather needs to be taught more than fair weather driving. If you can do the others, fair weather driving is not too hairy.

On the other hand, if all of your training is in fair weather and you are all by your lonesome out driving in a blizzard at night........

Just my opinion and like another poster said - worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Rob Pincus]

Pax's point is an important one.... Consider these two schools:

1. We teach the State Mandated Course and will meet or beat any other schools price!
OR
2. We don't teach the state mandated minimum course because it is a joke, but if you complete our 3 day Concealed Carry Course at an acceptable level, we'll send a note to your local Sheriff with our certificate telling him that we feel you're qualified to carry a concealed pistol for defense.

Which would you choose??

(it may be important to remind some that we are in the Training forum, not politics...RKBA issues aside, Instructors are supposed to train, not advance their political beliefs for a fee)

*****

Back to the original question: Don't confuse Tough with GOOD..... training in the wind/rain/snow/etc is cool if that's what you're job entails or you want to push yourself after you learn the fundamentals, but pushing new students who might never have shot a gun before to train under extreme conditions is a recipe for a poor learning environment.
I'd think the guys running the 2nd school are clearly not aiming for new gun owners wanting CCWs and probably are wanna-be-tough-guys who would wear camoflage to teach the course and glance upwards periodically to scan for silent black choppers.

-RJP

[cohoskip]

I went to the local sheriff office and applied for my CCW permit.
1/2 hour and $60. later I had a 5 year permit in my pocket.
No classes, no range time - they just checked up to see if I was a bad guy...

[Perldog007]

Actually the school that trains rain or shine is run by a guy who rides in the Black Choppers.

He is also an instructor for a Department where I know a few folks and has a good rep as laid back and fun to learn from.

Right now he is "over yonder" doing the black chopper thing so I won't be able to attend for about a year. That is if he wasn't involved in certain recent events......

The "fair weather" school apparently has a mixed bag: Sky watchers and more level headed types but by all accounts all good instructors.

Tough and good can certainly be two different things though.

[Rob Pincus]

I edited my message shortly after the original post to make sure it was clear thtat I (mostly) kidding about the profile... but the fact is that the sometimes the Higher-speed background guys forget (or never really think about) who their audience is when they hang up the Instructor Shingle.... context of the student is incredibly important.

Denny Hansen gave the best advice that I can, in a recent SWAT Magazine, when it comes to searching for good instruction: Ask Around.