.327 Fed Magnum

[rc]

I actually have a couple of flare dies that I use to load 32 H&R. One is a regular 32 acp die and the other is the old style 30 carbine expander that I picked up cheap, then ground the decapper off and reground a bevel. You want to just flair the case to accept the bullet base without really expanding the case below the flare. If you chuck an expander in a lathe or large drill press with the threads protectd by tape, you could use 600 grit sandpaper to smooth the surface and bring the expander down to .308-.309 so you will have a good bit of tension with .312 bullets. Of the two 32 H&R sets I picked up one doesn't size as good as the other so I guess the sizing die could possibly be your problem. There is a lot of variations that can accumulate to cause a lack of seated bullet tension. I don't think you will have any major problems once you figure out the right combination of reloading dies for your chosen load. rc

[joneb]

Berry stopped making the .32 cal 90 grain plated.

How fast could you push them ?
From Berry,
Q: How fast can I shoot these bullets?
Velocities depend on the caliber, but as a rule of thumb, we recommend you don't shoot our plated bullets over 1200 feet-per-second. Our 44's actually shoot best around 1150 fps. 45's are generally good at 850-900 fps. Our bullets are not recommended for magnum velocities.

Cast bullets are an option, but it gets squirrelly when you intend to send these little SOB's at 1,500-plus FPS.

Brad at "Missouri Bullet Company" began casting certain bullets for magnum velocities (18 bhn) perhaps he would do the same for the .327 mag.

[Sevens]

So I have decided to try something: using the Xtreme Bullets 123 gr 7.62x39 plated. They are .312" diameter, which is right for the .327 Mag. Have loaded only a few, but they seem to be working just fine so far.

Berry's also makes a plated 123gr slug for the 7.62x39 and with my last bullet order, I asked them to toss five or ten samples in my box to see how I could seat/crimp these and how they'd look.

Berry's actually took my request, wrote it on the packing order, and then forgot to stick a few bullets in my package. It's like they saw my request, granted it, then forgot to actually give 'em to me. I didn't at all right about calling/e-mailing and complaining... I figure I'll try the same request with my next order.

I'm a very satisfied customer of those guys, so it's not like I'm peeved at 'em or anything.

[willr]

Actually, I considered the Berry's 110 gr. 7.62X39 plated, but the bullet diameter is listed as .311". Next best is the Xtreme 123 gr. plated.

willr

[FrankenMauser]

Just an update on one load, and some factory ammunition.

Out of my 5.5" Blackhawk, I had the following results:

.327 Mag. 85 gr Federal Hydrashoks ("reduced recoil"), Factory.
1,560 fps. Little recoil. Stiff extraction. Not tested for accuracy.

.327 Mag. 115 gr Gold Dots. Factory.
1,480 fps. Little recoil. Noticeable muzzle blast. Normal extraction. Very accurate.

.327 Mag. 100 gr American Eagle SPs. Factory.
1,685 fps. Little recoil. Noticeable muzzle blast. Stiff extraction. Decently accurate.

And... Until today, I hadn't shot enough factory .327 ammo to reload my 115 gr Meister LFPs, so they're still untested. However, I did sling some of my wife's 94 gr LFPs across a chronograph.

.32 S&W Long (MagTech brass). 94 gr Meister LFP.
HP-38. 1.237" OAL. Redding profile crimp (didn't record a measurement).
Tested safe (in my pistol) from 1.8-2.4 grains.
2.0 grains has no recoil, a quieter report than .22 LR, and was very accurate inside 30 yards (less than 1", 4-shot groups, off-hand).
580 fps for the 2.0 gr load!

[Rusty W]

Very informative thread. I'm just starting to load for the 32 mag. Are these what you're looking for? Sorry for the cell phone pics...

PM sent to willr

[Sevens]

Indeed, those are what I am looking for.

Are you selling or trading?

[Sevens]

Forgot to mention: Great data, FrankenMauser. 580 fps is pretty crazy... that's BB gun territory!

[FrankenMauser]

Does anyone have any updates?
Load development?
Component availability?

Does anyone know why the Federal component brass suddenly vanished from vendor lists a few weeks ago? (It's no longer listed as a future product anywhere I've looked, and the vendors wont talk. It vanished from the sites I check, just days before it was supposed to be available - Aug 1.)
I left a message on Federal's customer service line, and sent an email. Hopefully, they will give a straight answer.

Like a few other forum members here, I got shot down by Freedom Arms. They asked for my .224-327 serial number, when I tried ordering the brass. So, I have to wait for another source. (And I am really hoping to avoid Federal. Their prices are ridiculous. The .327 brass was listed at $38 per 50, before it vanished.)

In regards to my previous issues with the MagTech 71 grain FMJs:
I was finally able to get some loaded. The MagTech .32 S&W Long brass is absolutely, completely incapable of enough tension to hold the bullets. It seems to have too much spring-back. Actual .327 brass, however, works just fine.
Right now, I've got some of the FMJs sitting on 6.0 grains of HP-38, and 5.0 grains of Trail Boss, at an OAL of 1.505". I'll let you know how they do in the Blackhawk when I get a chance.

[Koveras]

I've been trying to find a suitable heavy cast bullet for my 327, and I think I may have had some luck.

I knew from past experience that my Lee molds that are nominally .309" usually cast at about .312" to .313" using 2Sn6Sb92Pb (Hard Ball) alloy, so I ordered the Lee C309-113-F mold, and sure enough it casts right at .313". I used a Lee push through .314 sizer to seat Hornady 30 Caliber gas checks. Note that the gas checks are a tight fit on this bullet -- just letting you know in advance.

With tumble lube (LLA) and gas checks, the bullets weigh in at an average of just over 119 grains. I have loaded them to right around 1350 fps in my Blackhawk with Accurate #9 powder and CCI-500 primers with good accuracy and no leading.

I'm happy with the load I have, so I will probably stick with it, but I suspect that the bullet would handle considerably higher velocities (since I use the same alloy with gas checks in my rifles at much higher velocities...).

[Sevens]

Like a few other forum members here, I got shot down by Freedom Arms. They asked for my .224-327 serial number, when I tried ordering the brass.

I've heard it both ways. When I first heard you could do it, I called 'em up and bought a small amount with no hassle. Came quick. Then, someone posted elsewhere on TFL that they tried and got the treatment you just got. Later, someone else posted that he just did it and was able to get brass.

Perhaps you have to call and get the other person to answer the phone?!

[FrankenMauser]

Originally Posted by Sevens

I've heard it both ways. When I first heard you could do it, I called 'em up and bought a small amount with no hassle. Came quick. Then, someone posted elsewhere on TFL that they tried and got the treatment you just got. Later, someone else posted that he just did it and was able to get brass.

Perhaps you have to call and get the other person to answer the phone?!

I suspected the same. I might give it another chance. I really want to cancel my backorder of Starline .32 H&R brass, but can't bring myself to do it. I've waited more than 3 months, with a delivery date still 3.5 months out, and just don't have enough brass to be comfortable right now. Until I have a replacement... I just don't think I can tell Starline to forget about it - even though I don't really want .32 H&R brass. Maybe I'll try FA again tomorrow.

What quantities have any posters here successfully ordered from FA? I'd like 300-400 cases, but even 100 would be fantastic.

Originally Posted by Koveras

I've been trying to find a suitable heavy cast bullet for my 327, and I think I may have had some luck.

Have you considered the Meister's 115 grain LRNFP? I saw them on clearance at Midway a few months back, at $70 for 2000, with free shipping. They seem to do well (I need still need to do some real testing), and are reported to be capable of being pushed to at least 1,300 fps without leading.

[Sevens]

When I called and bought some (January) I was ordering for my bro-in-law and he wanted only a hundred. I knew it was a bad idea and should have pushed him to at least 300. It's all Federal non-nickel stuff and comes primed.

On another note...
I read recently in an article on the .327 Fed Mag that all factory ammo is primed with small rifle primers to be sure to contain the high pressure. My handloads have all been done with CCI small pistol, non-mag. I have no worries with building a load with small rifle primers, but I'm concerned about reliability with primer hits from a small frame revolver.

Has anyone else heard the theory that factory ammo is running small rifle primers?

[FrankenMauser]

Has anyone else heard the theory that factory ammo is running small rifle primers?

I've heard it, but haven't seen any definitive conformation.

I have noticed some considerable flattening, and a few minor flows with even moderate loads with standard SP primers. I'm planning on using SP Magnum primers for any fairly stout loads, at a minimum. I guess I should consider giving some Small Rifle primers a try. I do remember reading somewhere, that it was the only way one article's author was able to tame primer flow. If I come across the article again, I'll post a link, or summary.

I don't know about other pistols, but I don't think my Blackhawk would have any issues with SR primers. It smacks the things pretty hard.

[Sevens]

My Blackhawk (.30 Carb) whacks 'em all day long without a stutter.

I've seen flattening with the loads I've made with CCI small pistol, but nothing that concerned me or looked out of the ordinary. No cratering. I would consider almost any kind of flow even a step beyond cratering.

I know with my .30 Carb loads (under max, but it's a 40k PSI round) using small rifle non-mag, I never get any kind of cratering or flow.

But I would also imagine that a full size Blackhawk hits a primer with more authority than a 3-inch SP-101, but I can't imagine any way of testing that except by trial and error.

If we could get official info from Federal/Speer that they do use SR primers, then I'd probably go that route myself.

And hmmmmm, now it's got me thinking. The brass that Freedom Arms sent me was new and primed. I wonder what kind of primer I had in there?!

[Sevens]

Chris: due to pressure, the 327 Federal is loaded with a Federal Small
Rifle primer (NOT Magnum).

Currently components are being used in factory loaded ammunition and I'm
unsure if Starline is making cases for the 327 Fed.

As far as the use of Hornady bullets, due to the increased pressure, be
very careful that the bullet is designed for the higher pressure of the
327 Fed, if not damage to the forcing cone is to be expected. We have
no tested reloading data for any Hornady bullet.

Load data for the 327 Fed is on the Speer Bullet website.

Shoot Straight!
Coy Getman
2299 Snake River Ave.
Lewiston, ID 83501
CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator
(866) 286-7436

Quick response from the "ask Speer ammo form" on the Speer website.

Where he says that he doesn't know if Starline is producing the brass -- that's not the answer I was looking for. I asked him if Starline was allowed to produce it, I want to know if Federal has some sort of exclusivity or patent on the brass that doesn't legally allow Starline to build it.

The response about the Hornady bullets came when I asked for some suggested max loads using the 85 and 100 grain XTP bullets, and then threw a quick question in about 71gr FMJ slugs meant for a .32 Auto in there.

I think we can all agree that the Hornady 85 and 100gr XTP slugs are appropriate for the .327 Federal Mag and it's pressures, but I suppose I should ask Hornady that question.

I'm not sure we'd get an expert from any company to agree that .32 Auto 71gr slugs are appropriate, but that's not stopping me from using them yet!

His response about there being load data on the Speer bullet website sucks -- just like Alliant, they believe that everyone has only Gold Dot component bullets ($$$) on their load bench. I don't want to build loads based on advice on a bullet of a differing weight, construction and manufacturer. Pretty weak on ATK's part, IMO.

I do think that I'm switching to small rifle primers, though. Since the SP-101 has been cracking them at 100% so far in factory ammo (and likely my primed brass from Freedom) I believe I should also use them. The side benefit is that I'll be using less small pistol and more small rifle, which I don't use a lot of. It's a win-win-win situation.

[FrankenMauser]

Thanks for the info.

Where he says that he doesn't know if Starline is producing the brass -- that's not the answer I was looking for. I asked him if Starline was allowed to produce it, I want to know if Federal has some sort of exclusivity or patent on the brass that doesn't legally allow Starline to build it.

It is, indeed, a licensing issue. I year or more ago, Handloader (I believe) ran an article about one of the newer Federal cartridges. In it, the author described the ridiculous battle he had to go through, to get brass. During the process, he discovered the reason no one even wants to produce brass for the Federal cartridges: Their licensing fees could be equated to those of the NFL, Disney, and Ford/GM/Chrysler (Ford and GM used to actually have their fee schedules published on their websites - I don't know if they still do. The cost to produce something that even remotely resembles one of their products will blow your mind.)

I've heard through unofficial channels, that this is because ATK always wants to recoup their R&D costs, before any one else gets a chance to make some money off their idea. In my opinion, it's a stupid business move and bonehead idea for gaining faith from the public. Making the damn thing actually available to users would do more for them, than trying to rule the world one cartridge at a time. ATK did issue a statement about some of the Federal products a few years ago. It was pretty much, "We don't want our brand name being stamped on inferior products." (Yea.... it's not about the money; it's about the product.... That's why every other day, in this forum, we see complaints about Federal brass blowing primers... and my only experiences will radically dangerous head space with factory ammo were all Federal.... )

[Sevens]

New reply from Coy in response to my e-mail about whether the .327 Federal Magnum brass is exclusive or not:

When the cartridge is submitted to SAAMI, others are allowed to make it. They do that when they anticipate the sales will meet the cost of the R&D time to produce the product.

Coy seems to be saying that Starline is free to produce and sell .327 Fed Mag if they choose. I asked Starline the same question earlier this year and the response I got from March of this year was:

It is not that we are not allowed to produce .327 Federal brass, we simply do not have time to produce .327 Federal brass. We aren’t able to keep up with demand for our standard product line at this time, so we are not adding any new calibers right now.

Regards,
Hunter Pilant
Media Relations/Technical Support
[email protected]

Getting back to Coy from Speer, he went on to say this about the bullets I'm loading in .327 when I mentioned to him that Speer data only EVER seems to cover the expensive premium Gold Dot bullets:

In many calibers you can use “the bullets that fit” the 327 Fed is not that caliber if you intend to use full-power loads. You’ll tear the forcing-cone up or stretch the frame with bullets not designed for full-pressure loads in the 327 Fed. Understand that is not an idle warning, it will happen, this is the place for premium bullets when top velocities are desired.

The way for me to “stay an expert” is to provide tested data and change that when components change. If we tested someone else’s bullets and they changed them and we did not know it, you’d be looking for gun parts and calling me “something other than an expert”.

While that may come off a little rude, it fits well as a response to what I sent to him which I did not include in this post. I asked for some load data, he referred me to the Speer website and I replied back that the data from the experts doesn't help me when the only bullet they ever seem to include is the Gold Dot.

I can't imagine even an ATK bankrolled Speer rep would even hint that Hornady doesn't make a quality, capable bullet. I would think that Hornady is every bit as capable (perhaps more so) of building a quality bullet than is anyone in this business, certainly including Speer. And Federal.

But the bottom line seems to be at this point is that we need to find a way to put a little pressure on Starline to tool up for .327. And yeah, I see where they are coming from. I'm sure anyone who represents Starline could come up with a dozen calibers that are currently in demand/back ordered and back logged.

[FrankenMauser]

Just an update, for anyone that has Sierra bullets backordered...


I called Sierra today, to check on my backorder again.
The explanation for my 7 month backorder, that still hasn't been filled, is as follows:

Sierra has not run any pistol bullets since early 2010, and currently has none scheduled for production.
They claim, however, that they will be produced soon.


....I don't put much faith in "will be produced soon", when the statement runs parallel with "not scheduled for production"....

I just figured some of you may be interested, since other threads have mentioned backorders through Sierra.

[BluesBear]

Originally Posted by Soneone from Speer/ATK

In many calibers you can use “the bullets that fit” the 327 Fed is not that caliber if you intend to use full-power loads. You’ll tear the forcing-cone up or stretch the frame with bullets not designed for full-pressure loads in the 327 Fed. Understand that is not an idle warning, it will happen, this is the place for premium bullets when top velocities are desired.

Does anyone else sense some flawed logic here?
Now I fully realize that the .327 Magnum operates at a little higher pressure than most revolver cartridges and I also fully understand the dymanics of bullet obturation. So unless the chamber throats are grossly oversize, the forcing cone is ultra steep or the topstrap is made of petrified marshmallow, how can you tear up the forcing cone or stretch the frame at any pressure containable in a revolver?

I mean, is he trying to tell us that standard jacketed pistol bullets produced by most major American bullet producers are so Jell-O soft as to over-obturate all the while being so hard as to stretch the frame or "tear up" the forcing cone" of a quality steel revolver?

[Sevens]

I can't say that I sensed flawed logic -- but that's only because I know my limits when it comes to this game and bullet obturation and the surrounding areas are beyond my grasp at this point.

I was definitely hoping that someone would pick that out and expand on it, however. Because while I can't say that it sounds flawed, it does sound like something that I don't get and would like to know why.

[FrankenMauser]

I mean, is he trying to tell us that standard jacketed pistol bullets produced by most major American bullet producers are so Jell-O soft as to over-obturate all the while being so hard as to stretch the frame or "tear up" the forcing cone" of a quality steel revolver?

I think the idea is to avoid very lightly-constructed bullets, like those designed for the .32 Auto and .32 S&W Long (60 gr XTP, for example). Most of the jacketed bullets in the 60-80 gr class are pretty flimsy, when compared to the 85-115 gr stuff (115 gr Gold Dot, for example).

However, I would like to see the mystical lists of "poor quality" bullets and "approved" bullets, as well.

[Sevens]

I loaded some Berry's plated 71 gr round nosers, but I didn't push them hot at all.

Later, I loaded a bunch of Winchester 71gr FMJs, and I sent those a-zippin'. I don't have a chrono and there exists no data that I know of, so I winged it. Even still, I was cautious, and pretty sure I wasn't making them nuclear.

[triumph666]

In the old blackpowder cartridge days of the lever actions and whatnot the rule was that a lead bullet could not be fired over 1500 ft per second as there would be extreme fouling.......
so if you can fire lead at up to 1500ftps exactly how would that damage a 327 mag revolvers cone or frame on a rnd that travels 1200-1400fps?
I personally have loaded +P in 9mm an 45 acp with LRN at well over 1000fps with nothing undue happening except annoying lead deposits

[willr]

I would like to renew this thread by asking a new question. 327 Fed Mag brass still hasn't appeared on the market as far as I can tell. Is there a conspiracy to stifle the 327? Bullets are rare, brass can only be obtained by shooting factory ammo. I think this is an excellent cartridge; very useful. All you 327 loaders, let us arise in protest.

What do you think?

willr