CCW and Alchohol - Page 2

jrothWA · January 14, 2012, 08:06 PM

don't carry or be the designated driver.

Reality its' just a catch for CPLers, given that on local TV after the "shall issue" passed in Michigan and the local station for the Tigers was showing the game and clown off the right rear corner of batters box. went to grab a foul.
On TV shows his semi-suto droppong out on the ground, he fumbles its with left hand as the right hand keep the beer bottle from leaking.

Was wildly criticized asn why gin owner s could not be trusted.

two days later is was revealed the person of deridement, was a Detroit cop, on-duty and undercover.

No further comments from the embarrassed news reader!

hangglider · January 14, 2012, 09:22 PM

Jroth--drinking while posting to a forum is illegal too

And for those of you who disdain drinking at all and/or going out clubbing--I finally figured out the REAL reasons for that too: 1) you stopped drinking because all that money going down the drain is needed to buy ammo to hurl money down-range instead; and 2) you don't go out on Friday or Saturday nights because you are either visiting the local GS or cleaning weapons.

Am I right?

KC Rob · January 14, 2012, 10:04 PM

Some good posts so far and I agree with a lot of what has been said. My personal choice is to not imbibe alcohol, I just don't see the point of intentionally impairing myself. I also see it a big waste of money among other things.

Fred_G · January 14, 2012, 10:16 PM

Some additional information. In Louisiana, DUI is .08. Your LA CCW is considered 'suspended' if you are .05 BAC.

So, for me, no drinking and guns. If I want to drink, I stay home, or find a safe place to drink.

"A permittee may not carry and conceal a handgun while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance (CDS) as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964. For purposes of the concealed handgun law, a permittee is considered under the influence of alcohol when a blood alcohol reading of .05% or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood is obtained, or a blood or urine test shows any confirmed presence of a CDS.

The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be revoked by the deputy secretary when the permittee is carrying and concealing a handgun under any of the following circumstances:

The blood alcohol reading of the permittee is .05% or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood;

The permittee's blood test or urine test shows the confirmed presence of a CDS as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964;

The permittee refuses to submit to a department certified chemical test when requested to do so by a law enforcement officer.

R.S. 40:1379.3(L) provides that anyone who carries and conceals a handgun in violation of any provision of this Section, unless authorized to do so by another provision of the law, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both."

http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html#duties

SwampYankee · January 14, 2012, 10:58 PM

In Rhode Island, it has been determined to be illegal to be intoxicated and armed, even in the privacy of your own home. With 0.08 BAC being the legal limit.

If I go out with my gun, I do not drink. It's unfortunate but all the cops know this judicial ruling.

It is what it is. Stop drinking or stop worrying. No other options in my state...

kinoons · January 15, 2012, 12:27 AM

I don't understand the total phobia between alcohol and firearms. In Europe is isn't unusual at all to get together for a glass or two of wine, shoot a match, and then have dinner and a more wine. No one gets shot at these matches.

In Nevada the legal limit for ccw carry (or open carry) is 0.10, higher than driving at 0.08. If you're in your home there is no limit, you can have your firearm. You can carry in any establishment regardless of alcohol being served or not.

Your possible alcohol level isn't the concern -- if it's a good shoot the weapon, ammo, or your alcohol level won't matter, it's a good shoot. If it's a bad one, nothing else matters.

I don't advocate for sloppy fall down drunk carry, but there is nothing wrong with a glass of wine or beer with dinner and carry.

TheNocturnus · January 15, 2012, 12:37 AM

Quote:

I don't advocate for sloppy fall down drunk carry, but there is nothing wrong with a glass of wine or beer with dinner and carry.

Most state laws say otherwise. Also, if you are involved in a shooting do you want the defense attorney to have that weapon against you? They could simply say that you were impaired and acted irrationally.

Just remember what carrying a firearm entails. You have a deadly weapon in your posession and control. You have a huge responsibility and you represent a large group of individuals that also carry. Respect the permit and just leave the gun at home if you must drink.

kinggabby · January 15, 2012, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Most state laws say otherwise. Also, if you are involved in a shooting do you want the defense attorney to have that weapon against you? They could simply say that you were impaired and acted irrationally.

Just remember what carrying a firearm entails. You have a deadly weapon in your possession and control. You have a huge responsibility and you represent a large group of individuals that also carry. Respect the permit and just leave the gun at home if you must drink.

I agree. I also agree that you should be able to have 1 glass of wine or 1 beer and still be able to carry. But I also know in Oklahoma it is against the to carry under the influence of alcohol or drugs and in the law I have not seen where it gives a definition of what is determined to be under the influence. So it is best not to do it at all here. Stay home and be safe is the way I am going to be.

kinoons · January 15, 2012, 01:04 AM

Fortunately I do live in a state that is very clear on what is acceptable for firearm carry and alcohol consumption.

And in any case, I have offered a real example of mature and responsible adults using firearms and alcohol with no bad outcomes. Why is it necessary to not allow anyone to have the freedom to consume any amount of alcohol when carrying a firearm? Do we select only those freedoms that we want to have because they are important to ourselves?

If you are unable to have a single drink and stop, then don't carry yourself. Don't restrict those among us who are able to do so responsibly.

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/
(alcohol at Swiss ranges)

hangglider · January 15, 2012, 01:43 AM

I dunno--as one other poster already said I would be more worried about response from law community than the relative risk from BG's--though it is a tough choice. Given the general negative public attitudes towards drinking and driving I figure carrying and drinking is a quick path to ending up in serious trouble. Cops are nervous about concealed carries in vehicles as is--now throw in the additional wrinkle of possible impairment (their judgement, not yours) and it seems too risky to me.

Mello2u · January 15, 2012, 01:53 AM

Consider that many legislators in the various state legislatures, want their constituents to "feel" safe; not necessarily be safe.

They, therefore, write laws which presume that the individual should give up the choice to determine whether he/she is competent to make the judgment to drink an alcoholic beverage, carry a deadly weapon, and use it in self-defense if the situation is perceived to arise.

I would prefer that all laws were written considering three things:
1) Is there a conflict of rights?
2) If yes, then does the Constitution grant the power to the State to act to resolve the conflict?
3) If yes, is the law written to actually remedy the conflict and in the least intrusive manner possible?

As hard as it is to prove self-defense when no alcohol is involved, adding in to the fact pattern that the shooter/defendant had consumed alcohol . . . . well that makes it tougher for the defense.

How many people on the jury would be ready to condemn the defendant for bad judgement in choosing to both consume alcohol and carry a weapon? Then the next step for the jury is to think that the defendant continued in that bad judgment and that the defendant was not justified to use deadly force.

I accept that when I carry a concealed handgun I am willing to take verbal abuse (and such) and do every reasonable thing to avoid escalating to the use of deadly force. I also accept that I do not consume alcohol when I carry.

I rarely drink more than one alcoholic beverage on any day. A six pack of beer lasts me a couple of months, unless my sons get them first.

Shadi Khalil · January 15, 2012, 02:00 AM

When I used to drink and go bar hoping with my friends I'd usually end up blind drunk and belligerent. One of the many reasons I don't touch alcohol any more. When I did drink in the past, I'd make sure the guns were locked up for the night.

Sport45 · January 15, 2012, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinoons

In Europe is isn't unusual at all to get together for a glass or two of wine, shoot a match, and then have dinner and a more wine. No one gets shot at these matches.

Maybe no one gets shot but who gets the better scores, the ones that drink or the ones that don't?

I wouldn't mind passing a bottle around before a highpower match if I could get away with not drinking any myself.

mdd · January 17, 2012, 11:50 PM

95% of all the stupid, costly, embarassing and hurtful things I have done in my life I did while somewhere north of 0.08% BAC. Thankfully none have ever involved firearms. I choose to not drink these days but it's not for some moral hang-up or anything of that nature. Simply put, I'm better sober. Doesn't matter the situation or context, I am better sober.

You want to drink? Have at it. Just don't drive and don't carry.

hangglider · January 18, 2012, 07:06 AM

Your senses and responses get dulled with alcohol--that's a well-proven, scientifically documented fact Jack. I suppose there's a certain logic that practicing that way makes some sense--like practicing in low light. The fighter types (or players on women) experience a loosening of inhibitions.

Don P · January 18, 2012, 07:48 AM

My take is CCW and booze is the same as driving and booze. Neither is a good mix and should be avoided in the combinations above.
Booze impairs judgment and motor skills, bad mix with wheels and even a worse mix with a devise that can send objects at close to 1/4 mile per second (depending on caliber)

ChrisJ715 · January 18, 2012, 08:37 AM

In KY, it is illegal to ccw in a place that serves alcohol by the drink. My friends and I have always agreed though, that legal or not, carrying and booze don't mix. We may have a few after a day at the range, but never before or during. In fact if we are going to be drinking, we divest ourselves of knives too.

Skans · January 18, 2012, 09:31 AM

If I drink at home, technically I'm in possession of a couple of NFA items in addition to handguns, etc.

Anyway,

First, don't drink and drive. Second, don't drink and carry. If you're not drinking and driving, then it doesn't matter whether your gun is on you or in your glove box. If you are going to drink (anywhere other than your own home), leave the car and the gun at home. Third, Going into a bar with a gun is always a bad idea in my opinion - regardless of laws.

zincwarrior · January 18, 2012, 10:39 AM

In Texas one cannot go to locations where 51% of revenues are made via alcohol sales (there are sepcific signs on those locations, but basically any bar). Additionally there is the default requirement that you cannot be impaired. It is important to tnote that IIRC the alochol standard has not been adjudicated. While .08 is the requirement for driving, any impairment may be sufficient.

zincwarrior · January 18, 2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Fortunately I do live in a state that is very clear on what is acceptable for firearm carry and alcohol consumption.

And in any case, I have offered a real example of mature and responsible adults using firearms and alcohol with no bad outcomes. Why is it necessary to not allow anyone to have the freedom to consume any amount of alcohol when carrying a firearm? Do we select only those freedoms that we want to have because they are important to ourselves?

If you are unable to have a single drink and stop, then don't carry yourself. Don't restrict those among us who are able to do so responsibly.

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/
(alcohol at Swiss ranges)

You're arguing like we have a choice. most don't. Others don't feel the need to take the risk. Alcohol is not particularly important to them.

kinggabby · January 18, 2012, 10:42 AM

I would not even have a sip if I am out and about when I have my gun with me. Seeing how some states don't define what it is to be impaired or under the influence . So they could say one sip and you are UTI. So I don't even want to take the risk. If you want to drink get it from the store and take it home.

Underdog101 · January 18, 2012, 11:09 AM

A very experienced and wise person told me many years ago:

#1: Don't do stupid stuff.

#2: Don't go to stupid places.

#3: Don't hang out with stupid people.

It has served me well and I try to pass it along when appropriate.

Baylorattorney · January 18, 2012, 03:10 PM

Alcohol and guns is asking for trouble if out and about.

bumnote · January 18, 2012, 04:13 PM

If I showed up at my range with a tablespoon of beer, my butt's getting tossed out the door...because its not safe. So why should it be any different when I carry? Why can't police have just one single drink while on duty? It's not safe and it impares judgement. Both of us could find ourselves needing to use a firearm in SD in the same exact manner under the same circumstances...and they have more training than 99% of us so why should it be different for Joe Citizen? I can carry in VA at a bar, if I don't drink...which makes perfect sense to me. If I'm not going to enjoy myself or have as much fun, my problem isn't with laws, my problem is with alcohol.

GlockedNLoded32 · January 18, 2012, 04:53 PM

Im 22 years old and I live in Texas and have my CHL I have become more responsible as a young adult do to the fact that I have taken on the responsibility's of being a CHL Holder. I have found that I can still go out and have fun without having a drink. its better to have a sound mind and make good judgments than to be impaired and take the chance of messing up the rest of my life to alcohol and firearms

January 14, 2012, 08:06 PM	#26
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Two options... don't carry or be the designated driver. Reality its' just a catch for CPLers, given that on local TV after the "shall issue" passed in Michigan and the local station for the Tigers was showing the game and clown off the right rear corner of batters box. went to grab a foul. On TV shows his semi-suto droppong out on the ground, he fumbles its with left hand as the right hand keep the beer bottle from leaking. Was wildly criticized asn why gin owner s could not be trusted. two days later is was revealed the person of deridement, was a Detroit cop, on-duty and undercover. No further comments from the embarrassed news reader!

January 14, 2012, 10:04 PM	#28
KC Rob Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 321	Some good posts so far and I agree with a lot of what has been said. My personal choice is to not imbibe alcohol, I just don't see the point of intentionally impairing myself. I also see it a big waste of money among other things. __________________ KC Rob

January 15, 2012, 01:53 AM	#36
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	Consider that many legislators in the various state legislatures, want their constituents to "feel" safe; not necessarily be safe. They, therefore, write laws which presume that the individual should give up the choice to determine whether he/she is competent to make the judgment to drink an alcoholic beverage, carry a deadly weapon, and use it in self-defense if the situation is perceived to arise. I would prefer that all laws were written considering three things: 1) Is there a conflict of rights? 2) If yes, then does the Constitution grant the power to the State to act to resolve the conflict? 3) If yes, is the law written to actually remedy the conflict and in the least intrusive manner possible? As hard as it is to prove self-defense when no alcohol is involved, adding in to the fact pattern that the shooter/defendant had consumed alcohol . . . . well that makes it tougher for the defense. How many people on the jury would be ready to condemn the defendant for bad judgement in choosing to both consume alcohol and carry a weapon? Then the next step for the jury is to think that the defendant continued in that bad judgment and that the defendant was not justified to use deadly force. I accept that when I carry a concealed handgun I am willing to take verbal abuse (and such) and do every reasonable thing to avoid escalating to the use of deadly force. I also accept that I do not consume alcohol when I carry. I rarely drink more than one alcoholic beverage on any day. A six pack of beer lasts me a couple of months, unless my sons get them first. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

January 17, 2012, 11:50 PM	#39
mdd Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Posts: 626	95% of all the stupid, costly, embarassing and hurtful things I have done in my life I did while somewhere north of 0.08% BAC. Thankfully none have ever involved firearms. I choose to not drink these days but it's not for some moral hang-up or anything of that nature. Simply put, I'm better sober. Doesn't matter the situation or context, I am better sober. You want to drink? Have at it. Just don't drive and don't carry. __________________ So many coyotes....so little time....

January 18, 2012, 07:48 AM	#41
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	My take is CCW and booze is the same as driving and booze. Neither is a good mix and should be avoided in the combinations above. Booze impairs judgment and motor skills, bad mix with wheels and even a worse mix with a devise that can send objects at close to 1/4 mile per second (depending on caliber) __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

January 14, 2012, 09:22 PM	#27
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	Jroth--drinking while posting to a forum is illegal too And for those of you who disdain drinking at all and/or going out clubbing--I finally figured out the REAL reasons for that too: 1) you stopped drinking because all that money going down the drain is needed to buy ammo to hurl money down-range instead; and 2) you don't go out on Friday or Saturday nights because you are either visiting the local GS or cleaning weapons. Am I right?

January 14, 2012, 10:16 PM	#29
Fred_G Member Join Date: December 25, 2009 Posts: 25	Some additional information. In Louisiana, DUI is .08. Your LA CCW is considered 'suspended' if you are .05 BAC. So, for me, no drinking and guns. If I want to drink, I stay home, or find a safe place to drink. "A permittee may not carry and conceal a handgun while under the influence of alcohol or a controlled dangerous substance (CDS) as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964. For purposes of the concealed handgun law, a permittee is considered under the influence of alcohol when a blood alcohol reading of .05% or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood is obtained, or a blood or urine test shows any confirmed presence of a CDS. The permit to carry a concealed handgun shall be revoked by the deputy secretary when the permittee is carrying and concealing a handgun under any of the following circumstances: The blood alcohol reading of the permittee is .05% or greater by weight of alcohol in the blood; The permittee's blood test or urine test shows the confirmed presence of a CDS as defined in R.S. 40:961 and 964; The permittee refuses to submit to a department certified chemical test when requested to do so by a law enforcement officer. R.S. 40:1379.3(L) provides that anyone who carries and conceals a handgun in violation of any provision of this Section, unless authorized to do so by another provision of the law, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both." http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html#duties

January 14, 2012, 10:58 PM	#30
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	In Rhode Island, it has been determined to be illegal to be intoxicated and armed, even in the privacy of your own home. With 0.08 BAC being the legal limit. If I go out with my gun, I do not drink. It's unfortunate but all the cops know this judicial ruling. It is what it is. Stop drinking or stop worrying. No other options in my state...

January 15, 2012, 12:27 AM	#31
kinoons Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 409	I don't understand the total phobia between alcohol and firearms. In Europe is isn't unusual at all to get together for a glass or two of wine, shoot a match, and then have dinner and a more wine. No one gets shot at these matches. In Nevada the legal limit for ccw carry (or open carry) is 0.10, higher than driving at 0.08. If you're in your home there is no limit, you can have your firearm. You can carry in any establishment regardless of alcohol being served or not. Your possible alcohol level isn't the concern -- if it's a good shoot the weapon, ammo, or your alcohol level won't matter, it's a good shoot. If it's a bad one, nothing else matters. I don't advocate for sloppy fall down drunk carry, but there is nothing wrong with a glass of wine or beer with dinner and carry.

January 15, 2012, 01:04 AM	#34
kinoons Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2008 Location: las vegas, NV Posts: 409	Fortunately I do live in a state that is very clear on what is acceptable for firearm carry and alcohol consumption. And in any case, I have offered a real example of mature and responsible adults using firearms and alcohol with no bad outcomes. Why is it necessary to not allow anyone to have the freedom to consume any amount of alcohol when carrying a firearm? Do we select only those freedoms that we want to have because they are important to ourselves? If you are unable to have a single drink and stop, then don't carry yourself. Don't restrict those among us who are able to do so responsibly. http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/ (alcohol at Swiss ranges)

January 15, 2012, 01:43 AM	#35
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	I dunno--as one other poster already said I would be more worried about response from law community than the relative risk from BG's--though it is a tough choice. Given the general negative public attitudes towards drinking and driving I figure carrying and drinking is a quick path to ending up in serious trouble. Cops are nervous about concealed carries in vehicles as is--now throw in the additional wrinkle of possible impairment (their judgement, not yours) and it seems too risky to me.

January 15, 2012, 02:00 AM	#37
Shadi Khalil Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2006 Location: Alexandria, VA Posts: 5,210	When I used to drink and go bar hoping with my friends I'd usually end up blind drunk and belligerent. One of the many reasons I don't touch alcohol any more. When I did drink in the past, I'd make sure the guns were locked up for the night.

January 18, 2012, 07:06 AM	#40
hangglider Junior member Join Date: December 24, 2011 Posts: 212	Your senses and responses get dulled with alcohol--that's a well-proven, scientifically documented fact Jack. I suppose there's a certain logic that practicing that way makes some sense--like practicing in low light. The fighter types (or players on women) experience a loosening of inhibitions.

January 18, 2012, 08:37 AM	#42
ChrisJ715 Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2011 Location: Small town in eastern KY Posts: 155	In KY, it is illegal to ccw in a place that serves alcohol by the drink. My friends and I have always agreed though, that legal or not, carrying and booze don't mix. We may have a few after a day at the range, but never before or during. In fact if we are going to be drinking, we divest ourselves of knives too.

January 18, 2012, 09:31 AM	#43
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	If I drink at home, technically I'm in possession of a couple of NFA items in addition to handguns, etc. Anyway, First, don't drink and drive. Second, don't drink and carry. If you're not drinking and driving, then it doesn't matter whether your gun is on you or in your glove box. If you are going to drink (anywhere other than your own home), leave the car and the gun at home. Third, Going into a bar with a gun is always a bad idea in my opinion - regardless of laws.

January 18, 2012, 10:39 AM	#44
zincwarrior Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Texas, land of Tex-Mex Posts: 2,259	In Texas one cannot go to locations where 51% of revenues are made via alcohol sales (there are sepcific signs on those locations, but basically any bar). Additionally there is the default requirement that you cannot be impaired. It is important to tnote that IIRC the alochol standard has not been adjudicated. While .08 is the requirement for driving, any impairment may be sufficient.

January 18, 2012, 10:42 AM	#46
kinggabby Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2011 Location: OKC Posts: 502	I would not even have a sip if I am out and about when I have my gun with me. Seeing how some states don't define what it is to be impaired or under the influence . So they could say one sip and you are UTI. So I don't even want to take the risk. If you want to drink get it from the store and take it home.

January 18, 2012, 11:09 AM	#47
Underdog101 Junior Member Join Date: January 18, 2012 Location: The Great Midwest Posts: 7	CCW and Alcohol A very experienced and wise person told me many years ago: #1: Don't do stupid stuff. #2: Don't go to stupid places. #3: Don't hang out with stupid people. It has served me well and I try to pass it along when appropriate.

January 18, 2012, 03:10 PM	#48
Baylorattorney Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2011 Posts: 177	Alcohol and guns is asking for trouble if out and about.

January 18, 2012, 04:13 PM	#49
bumnote Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2008 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 407	If I showed up at my range with a tablespoon of beer, my butt's getting tossed out the door...because its not safe. So why should it be any different when I carry? Why can't police have just one single drink while on duty? It's not safe and it impares judgement. Both of us could find ourselves needing to use a firearm in SD in the same exact manner under the same circumstances...and they have more training than 99% of us so why should it be different for Joe Citizen? I can carry in VA at a bar, if I don't drink...which makes perfect sense to me. If I'm not going to enjoy myself or have as much fun, my problem isn't with laws, my problem is with alcohol. __________________ "And remember, Abraham Lincoln didn't die in vain, he died in Washington D.C." - Firesign Theatre

January 18, 2012, 04:53 PM	#50
GlockedNLoded32 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 129	Im 22 years old and I live in Texas and have my CHL I have become more responsible as a young adult do to the fact that I have taken on the responsibility's of being a CHL Holder. I have found that I can still go out and have fun without having a drink. its better to have a sound mind and make good judgments than to be impaired and take the chance of messing up the rest of my life to alcohol and firearms __________________ GLOCK 32 .357 SIG With Hogue Grip,Trijicon Ghost Ring Night Sight, 3.5 Ghost trigger, Weatherby Vanguard .308 1:12 twist with Blackhawk Bipod and a Barska 6x24x60 IR SWAT SCOPE. - 168 Hornady AMAX loaded at 46 gr Stoeger M2000 Max 4 SA 12 gauge