Old Western Black Powder Pistols

[Vrubel68]

I was just wondering, are old western pistols tough to get ahold of? Or are they expensive as all hell and I shouldn't even bother if I'm not truly thrilled by the idea of packing my own... balls? Anyways, I always thought it would be cool to buy one, but I'm not sure anymore on the price. Any info would help. -Jason

[TexasSIGMan]

Well are you looking for just the visuals of an old west style revolver or do you really want to shoot blackpowder?

If you just want the looks then find a Single Action Army clone in .45LC and be done with it. If you later want to load some .45's with blackpowder that can be done.

Or do you really want to go authentic with a cap and ball revolver? The entry price is generally lower for that, but lots more mess (and lots more fun if you are willing to deal with it).

Or are you looking for the genuine article, a 100+ year old museum piece?

[gmatov]

Vrubel,

You can get started in this sport less expensively than most others, be it cartridge gun shooting, golf, tennis, skiing, whatnot.

You can expect to pay about 160 USD for a revolver (and up, of course), if you want to buy new, or as little as a hundred if you go to the auctions and win.

4 bucks for a tin of 100 caps, 15 for a pound of BP, if you can get it at your locale, or 20 or so for substitute, 6 to 10 for a 100 balls, 36 cal lower price, 10 for the 44 cal. 6 or so for a powder measure, 15 or so for a powder flask with a built in measuring spout, but you are rather limited to that charge, which is the reccommended charge, and quite adequate to see if you like it, possibly a capper, though you can do without, unless you got fumbly fingers, like I seem to have, lately.

Comes to about 215 bucks, depending on what in the above you deem necessary. Don't worry, if you don't get it now, buy what is the basics, go shoot, see if you like it, if you do, you will be back looking for more goodies.

I think you'll love it.

Damn, Sam, you've been here 7 months, posted 30 times or so, don't be shy, come join us. You've missed some good times. Ask anything you want, someone will give you AN answer, and if it's not quite correct, or fully explained, someone else will chime in. We don't want anyone to get hurt in this game. Hard TO get hurt, with BP guns. They ARE at LEAST as lethal as the moderns, but harder to get an accidental discharge.

Join in, bud, and welcome. What kind do you think you would prefer? Basically, 2 kinds, the Rem topstrap model, and the Colt Open Top models.

Personally, though I now have 3 topstrap Rems, and 2, Colts, still like the Colts. Just more beautiful, to me. Got more in my eye at the auctions.

Cheers,

George

[Weird Guy]

Gmtov, I would suggest not using so much lingo with somebody who is that new to black powder shooting.

BP= black powder
Caps = precussion caps

But to answer the orginal poster it is quite easy to get into old west style guns, and it is inexpensive compared to other firearms. The revolvers usually run between $130 to $150 dollars. I bought a starter pack for $150 that had the Colt Navy 1851 revolver, and all the tools that go with it, including some lead bullets.

Black powder is sold seperately, as are the precussion caps.

There is one thing to add to this discussion is that getting actual/real antique guns that really were from the orginal manufactures are quite expensive. That is a collectors market. The guns we are talking about here are copies made brand new, and usually from Italy. Companies like F.L. Pietta, and Pendersoli to name two that do imports.

Black powder shooting requires absolutely no paperwork. The guns are never registered and there is no waiting period. You can even order them from websites and have them delivered in the mail. Note that some states have local laws that might be different. The websites you order from should tell you if they can or cannot sell something to you.

[Vrubel68]

Well, I just thought it would be kinda cool to fire a gun that you had to put a little energy in to reloading. It's not like having a glock where you can empty a clip for $$ a shot. Maybe a little western, .45 ish. I'ld have to do more research, I suppose.

I'm not worried about the BP cause I make and distribute my own, but the percussion caps, and the shots might be a different story. I have a little kid as well, so I would be less worried about him playing with a BP pistol than a cartridge (still as dangerous, though).

Anyways, thanks for all the great info!
-Jason

[Low Key]

Vrubel68,
Just want to make sure I understood you correctly, are you saying that your son would be less likely to play with a Blackpowder pistol or that you would be less worried if he did play with it? I'm not sure I followed your thought process there. (Not trying to flame you, just want to understand what your intended statement was)

You are absolutely correct in saying that they are just as dangerous as a cartridge gun. Around here, there is a perception that blackpowder pistols are just big expensive toys and they really don't have the power of modern cartridge pistols, but I have found that to be untrue and have gained a good respect for what these guns can do. Anyway, I hope that you find a pistol that you like and maybe you'll find that you enjoy blackpowder shooting. I've been addicted to BP for more than 6 months now and it shows no sign of abating, it's gettin worse!

[Weird Guy]

I actually agree that a blackpowder pistol is inherently safer than a regular revolver in the house. A little kid is less likely to go through the steps of loading it and firing it. Common sense says we should all remind everyone who will listen to be safe, lock up your guns, keep the ammunition seperate, yadda-yadda-yadda. You know that drill.

As for a good entry level revolver to get into for old west shooting, I would recommend the 1858 Remington. They're easier to dissasemble than Colts. Colts have a wedge that needs hammering out to pull the barrel off the front of the frame. Remingtons just pull the T-handle cylinder pin forward, and roll the cylinder out the side of the frame.

Stainless steel is another thing you might want. It depends if you like shiny guns or not.

I wonder why you make your own black powder? You must work in the fireworks industry if you do that.

[mousegun]

Make your own blackpowder? Boy! Let's hear about that!

Already make my own caps (Tap-o-Cap), paper cartridges, cast balls & conicals. Guess BP oughta be next...

That'll make wifey REALLY happy!

[gmatov]

Jason,

Let's hear more about your BP making.

I kind of disagree about which is simpler, the Rem or the Colt. The Colt, while making more pieces totally stripped, can be washed in an icecube tray of hot soapy water, the Rem, fixed at 13 inches, whatever, needs a bigger container, and the parts, mainspring for 1, are harder to remove, as well as the hand and spring, and even the cylinder pin. Wedge is no biggie.

I like both, but the Colt will always look better, and feel better, in my hand. And, if they had the same steel, in '47, as they had in '58 and '60, those Walkers that blew up, with cast iron cylinders, wouldn't have, with the 60 grain charges.

Cheers,

George

Wierdguy,

He's been reading the board for 7 months, I think he knew what BP and caps were.

[Old Dragoon]

George,
I love the way a '51 Colt Navy feels, none better in my opinion, however when I picked up Smoking_Gun's Armi San Paolo(now Euroarms) '58 Rem. (actually they are copies of the Old Model Army (they don't have the scoop at the breech and there are no exposed BBL. threads, well maybe 1 thread as to the 3 or more of the New Models) It felt almost as good to me as a '51 Colt Navy!!

No Kidding, Oldelm said almost the same thing when he picked up his brother's Engraved Eurorams SS '58 Rem.

Man they feel really good to those of us with small hands.

When I shot SG's '58 I loved the feel and the balance seemed to be better also, maybe it's just the way I can hold it.

[gmatov]

OD,

Take some dimensions of it, see if they are close to the one you love best.
They don't all have the same fit, and I don't mean just the different brands.

My "bFb" rough ground '51's grip screws to my ASM '60, everything fits, and it works.Can't say really that I paid enough attention to see if it felt better, just an argument I had that the other guy said they would not fit under any circumstance. They did, and it functioned.

Have to do it again, if it feels good, buy triggerguard and backstrap, mebbe grips, change the 60 to something like a 61. From what I read Colt went to the 51 gripframe to make the 61, and it felt better.

BTW, did you see the post on BP I made where they were asking about the subs, at 18 to 24 bucks a pound?

Hope my "paste" still works, under 12 bucks a pound delivered, 10 pounds, HAZMAT included.

http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/catalog_gx3F.jsp

Cheers,

George

[Vrubel68]

I was just eluding to the fact that it takes more work to load a BP pistol than a standard pistol, so one is less apt after a day of shooting to load it back up and let it sit in the bedroom with the powder in it... mainly because PNO3 is corrosive when exposed to humidity, i.e. I'm not gonna leave it loaded when it's not in use. This isn't to say that Im going to let my son play with it anyways, but if, on the off-chance, he should discover it and decide that, even after all these years of my drilling in to his head that guns are not toys, he want's to play Cowboys and Indians with little Ricky across the way, then the only thing that I would be worried about is him pistol whipping little Ricky instead of pluggin two in his butt.

Also, yes, I do work with fireworks, but not on a day to day basis. I mainly sell Tannerite and am trying to break in to the BP market, though, I'm learning it is substantially more difficult than I had imagined. Besides, I've always kinda been a chemist, so if it's mixin chemicals to make things do wierd things... well, sure, as long as it doesn't blow the kitchen up.......again.

If you'ld like to know more about the BP, I could explain it to ya, but the tough part isn't making it, the tough part is getting the chemicals. Most companies won't sell you all the stuff you need; liability issues.

[Vrubel68]

darn it, I wanted to delete this post.

[gmatov]

Vrubel,

I hope you mean KNO3. P is Phosphorous.

Pure KNO3 is refined to 99.9% at LEAST, purity, for BP, to get rid of the Chlorates. The Chlorates are the corrosives, and then when they absorb moisture from the air.

You are right. If you have only BP guns, or if you have all types, you are most likely to leave your percussions unloaded after you clean them, unless you are one of the few on these boards who own nothing but BP and depend on them for home protection, also.

Little chance your little one is going to drag it from under the pillow and shoot little Ricky across the way. That little 50 buck .22, though, is a different matter. You might keep that one loaded and dangerous to little ones who are not taught to never, ever, touch.

Even on these BP boards, we get those who are hypersensitive to safety, as though guns kill people, not foolish people who have access to guns.

First thing to teach any child, or any adult, is that guns are ALWAYS to be treated as though they ARE LOADED.

Elmer Keith wrote that he was afraid of unloaded guns, all his were always loaded, if a guest were in his house, he would hand him a gun, say, "It is loaded", and they handled with respect.

Best way to treat them all.

Cheers,

George

[Old Dragoon]

George,
Due to a silly A**ed mistake , if I now have one loaded in the house for personal protection it is tagged with a large price tag and string and marked HOT so I don't forget.
I did forget once and shot a hole thru my curtain, window, screen and how it missed my Pickem-up truck windshield right in front of the window is beyond me. It is also the reason I no longer dry fire my guns.
I had a couple Smith & Wesson 1st Model Americans that had been reworked to shoot 44-40's and had been bobbed to 4 3/4 " bbls. I had loaded one for PD. The other was empty. I was setting watching Tv and messing with the Smiths and held one in each hand pointed them out the window dry fired the left one "CLICK" and then the right one "BANG! Scared the bejeebers out of me, I was in my RV at the time and my Truck was parked in front almost touching the hitch. I guess the only thing that kept the bullet from hitting the windshield of the truck was the fact that the 44-40's were Cowboy loads bent the aluminum screen frame enough to break the glass. I never did find the slug. Put a neat hole in the curtain though.

They say God protects fools and children, and I guess I've been in both instances more than once.

[Vrubel68]

HEHE, bet that surprised the Mrs. Prolly raised some eyebrows with the neighbors as well. There's nothing like self-ventilating your living room with a cloud of powder :P

yeah, KNO3, I was thinking "potassium nitrate". Silly mistake. And, they are both corrosive when exposed to water; it's the O3 that does it since oxygen wants to bond with everything.

I've taught my son like I was taught: Guns, even toy ones, are not toys. Never point guns at people, toy or otherwise. I don't let him play with toy guns, but on the off chance he's playing at the sitters, he'll know better.

[gmatov]

OD,

When I was a child, near 50 years ago, had a slab side 1911, and 1, count 'em, 1 round of ammo, in the mag, pointin' it all over the bedroom, with the TV on, my kid brother sleeping in the other bed. 1 round in the mag, and for some reason I racked the slide, clicked at the bad guy on the TV, blew it to hell. Could as well have been my kid brother.

Only other accidental discharge I have had was a couple weeks back, when I mentioned a hammer seating discharge into the ground 10 feet in front of me. Didn't scare me, wasn't too embarrassed that there were hi-power shooters there, don't think they even knew what happened. Just DO know, it can always happen and I am eternally grateful I didn't kill my own brother while screwing around with a deadly weapon.

They are ALL loaded, even after I have checked to see that there is no ammo in them, they will not be pointed where a bullet is not supposed to go.

Cheers,

George

[gmatov]

Vrubel,

Sorry, went to the site I wanted to direct you to, talked to OD instead. Check this one out, see what Knight has to say about BP residue and the Chlorates.

Near 19% of the atmosphere is Oxygen, why is it only the oxygenators in the powder residue that will absorb moisture and attack your rifle or pistol's bore?

Or is it the Chlorates and the Chlorides, the salts?

The purer the KNO3, the less Chlorate there is, the less attack to the bore.

Cheers,

George

BTW, KNO3 is available as a "Stump Eater", if no other way, Sulphor is freely available, and you can choose what charcoal you want to use, these are not "restricted" chemicals. Make all the BP you want. So long as it does not burn at over 14 cm/3 per second, you are legal.

http://thunder-ridge-muzzleloading.c...l%20Knight.htm

[Low Key]

When I was growing up my dad was a police officer and he always kept a gun in reach or wore one on his hip. There were always loaded handguns laying here and there through the house, we knew not the touch them. Dad always drilled that into our heads, but he would take us to the shooting range to let us fire a few shots out of whichever ones he thought we could handle. My brothers and I were introduced to guns from the very start and even though we were curious about them, we knew that they were not toys and that we were not allowed to touch them without dad's direct supervision. He drilled us on firearm safety and we knew to assume that every gun is loaded. I guess I'm kinda anal about firearm safety, I know that they don't just go off by themselves, it takes someone to pull that trigger and we're all human and we do make mistakes. But if we all follow the four most important rules, then there is no reason to have an AD. I'm just like my dad and have guns laying here and there through the house and carry one about all the time. They all get put up when my little girl is staying here, and I'm in the process of introducing her to firearms. She is extremely curious, and wants to go shoot so sometime soon she's going to get to see me shoot my 58 Remington and then she'll get to shoot the 22 pistol.

[Vrubel68]

I know this is prolly a shameless plug given the topic, but would anyone here like to try out my powder? I'm willing to send a sample kit out, just have to pay shipping (prolly like a few bucks) and a couple dollars to pay for the materials. Let me know what ya'll think. It burns really well.

[gmatov]

Vrubel,

You tell me that you have tested your powder and it approaches 14 cubic CM per second of burn, and I will try it. If it is far off, either under or over, forget it.

Under it is underpowered, over, it is illegal, per ATFBE.

Have you proofed it, do you know what the burn rate is? Do you know how to determine the burn rate? If I were making my own, would think I would be happy to get a "boom", were I buying, I would think I would want consistency.

To them out there who think a slight overcharge is gonna blow their gun up, the originals were proofed at WAY higher loads than you could ever get in your gun, like all the way to the muzzle, with just room enough to cram in 2, yes, 2 balls. To be accepted, they had to pass that, and that was the brass framed models the Confederacy was making, with "iron" cylinders, I assume these were wrought iron, as they had to be twisted to make them stand the load. But, they did, in many instances. The ones that didn't went back for a better cylinder.

Cheers,

George

[Vrubel68]

Sorry that it took so long to get back to you on this one. Two things:
1) I haven't done a perfect proof on it, but it looks like it's approaching 14cm3/sec. I'ld say 11cm3/sec, but I'ld want to get a camcorder and get it down perfect. if you know of another way to proof other than 70g of material and a stopwatch, let me know.
2) yes, 19% of the atmosphere is made of O2, and that's what oxidizes (OXYgen.. hence Oxidize) and it's not just simply the Chlorates that do it, the nitrates do it as well. The only reason that Nitrates don't oxidize as easily is because of the element the Nitrate is bonded too, in this case Potassium. Perchlorates are more likely to break their bonds with the potassium because of the type of bond the Perchlorate has with it's self and the Potassium. It's just weaker than the Nitrates is all, but I guarentee you that if you were to take pure KNO3 and stick some metal in there, eventually, you'ld have a rusted whatever, the nitrates forming a bond with the principal metal in the material and the potassium realigning with the residual material.

[gmatov]

Well, the more you are willing to burn, the closer your stopwatch method will be.

If you are only willing to sacrifice 14 cm3 of powder, then you have to be dead nuts with the start and the stop of the watch. 10% over or under, and this IS PER SECOND, you have made useless firestarter or banned explosive, per ATFBE or whatever all letters they have now.

I will , may have already, post a site that tells you a little more. Basically, take a coke can, cut it to a reasonable depth, calculate the volume leveled off, in cm3, ignite it and time the total burn. 140 cm3 should take 10 seconds. If it is faster, it is illegal, if it is slower, two options, fertilize the garden, or put it back in the mill, wet, after you have wet mixed the next batch. If you are not mixing it wet, mashing the air from the sulfur and charcoal, which are NOT hygroscopic, they are hydrophobic, you are not getting a good compound.

Press the cake when tou are done mixing, dry and corn, then break down further and sieve to get consistency of grain size.

If you want to sell it, you're gonna have to go to a little more expense than you have shown to spend so far, ie, can't burn too much to time the burn.

Cheers,

George

The link: http://www.fortliberty.org/military-...plosives.shtml