I have a small problem, need advice.

rugerdude · October 21, 2007, 12:13 PM

Alright, I'll get right into it: My brother (half brother anyway) has been living with my mother, stepfather and their 7 year old for the past several months. He is a convicted felon and has recently started re-using meth.

Yesterday he started destroying property and was kicked out, however, later that night he got back into the house and took some money (it was his that my mother was saving for him) and a power-washer (not his) to pawn, and spent the night.

The police were called in the morning and he was escorted out and that was it, and when my mother asked about a restraining order, the officer said that she couldn't get one with the way things currently are. since then he has called saying that he hopes she dies and that sort of thing. Not directly threatening, but not far off either.

I may go over there to stay with them in case he returns, but I need to know what level of retaliation is legal should he come back and start breaking stuff. Would mace be going too far? I know gun=bad idea unless your life is on the line, but I don't know how the use of non-lethal things goes.

Although in the end, I'd rather not confront someone who is high and strung-out on meth.

I'm sure that this will turn out to be a non-event as things usually do, but it never hurts to prepare for the worst.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

porkskin · October 21, 2007, 01:45 PM

Can you reason with him? Ask him not to steal from your family if he is going to steal. Ask him not to come over until he gets clean, and tell him from this point forward things are different if he comes over high. He will be considered tresspassing. Can you get him treatment? Don't know the success rate for meth though...

HankB · October 21, 2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

. . . when my mother asked about a restraining order, the officer said that she couldn't get one with the way things currently are.

He broke in and stole something that wasn't his, and an LEO says she can't get a restraining order?

I'm no lawyer myself, but this sounds like the LEO isn't much of one, either. I encourage you to contact a real attorney and try to pursue this via legal means.

He's a felon? Is he on parole? If so, a call to his parole officer would be in order.

As for what else to do . . . obviously, change all the locks on the doors . . . and then ask yourself two questions . . .

1) Is my drug-addled felon half brother dangerous?

2) How would I deal with a NON-relative who acted this way towards my mother?

Ruthless4christ · October 21, 2007, 02:46 PM

I Agree. I Am All About Calling His Parole Officer. If You ask me that Will Shut It Down Quick.

Tanzer · October 21, 2007, 02:50 PM

I AM NOT A LAWYER, but I smell something in the air here. You need legal advice before you go to that house with the purpose of protecting its occupants. I know, - catch 22, it needs doing, but the act of doing may have ramifications. I would want to be sure that purposely being there would not be pointed out as some sort of ambush, for lack of a better term, by an overzealous prosecuter. I would certainly want to help, just be careful in doing so.
I hope some more law-savvy members read this post and respond. If you are bold enough to do such a thing, and obviously you are, then get on the phone and know where you stand.
Good luck and please keep posting. While you do, watch what you say. Make no accusations/generalizations - just keep us apprised please.

Tanzer · October 21, 2007, 02:55 PM

One more thing - do not use OC spray in the house, especially with a 7 year old. The child is another matter that needs to be addressed. I would be adament with the police over this matter.

**JohnKSa** · October 21, 2007, 02:55 PM

Why can't your mother and stepfather handle this?

DougO83 · October 21, 2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Why can't your mother and stepfather handle this?

Age, Physical condition, the fact THAT HE IS ON METH. Could be anything...

rmfrank · October 21, 2007, 04:02 PM

I don't know about OK law, but in CA, it's all about your state of mind before the event.

If you go to a house not your own, armed (noxious sprays are a weapon), with the intent of defending the occupants, you must, before you go, have taken every step that a "reasonable person" would have taken prior to doing that. Otherwise, you can get yourself in a world of trouble.

Call the cops yourself. Explain the situation. Ask that they offer protection. Call the local Distric Attorney. Ask that the man be arrested. Have your family make the same calls. If the calls have no effect, then you have reason to protect your family yourself. If the calls have an effect, then the probability of a rapid response by LE to any call from your family is raised.

If you do decide to go there, call 9-1-1 as soon as you even think he's coming back. Do not open the door. In most states, even CA, if a hostile perosn forces entry into your home, you have the right, ipso facto, to use force to stop them.

As an aside, I would not recommend a chemical irritant spray for use against a man using methamphetamine. Chemical sprays offer only momentary disablity. If you aren't a cop and can't then slap on a pair of cuffs, all that you have bought yourself is an angrier assailant.

Good luck!

rugerdude · October 21, 2007, 04:27 PM

Alright, good to know about OC spray.

And the reason my mother/stepfather can't handle it is because....well, I'm not sure really. My stepdad is being a push-over and won't really do anything about it and my mother is going to be talking with the police and seeking legal advice.

Uhm, I think he might still be on probation, but I'm really not sure. I can check with my parents though. I haven't paid much attention to him and I do not consider him to be family.

He's done some things like this in the past (pawning stuff for drugs, not being violent though) but they keep letting him come back despite my sister, my father and myself saying that it's a bad idea. I'll be sure that they don't make the same mistake yet again.

Oh, and reasoning has been tried too many times. He is the kind of person who can look you in the eye and lie to get whatever he wants, no matter how selfish it is of him. He takes no responsibility for his actions, and cares little for others.

Justme · October 21, 2007, 04:56 PM

This is not a "small problem". I have dealt with drug addicts and the law and theft is enough to get someone arrested let alone a restraining order. Therefore I think there is much more to this story than is being presented. Breaking in and stealing a pressure washer is enough to send a guy to jail, much better than a restraining order.

**JohnKSa** · October 21, 2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

And the reason my mother/stepfather can't handle it is because....well, I'm not sure really.

If they are capable of handling the situation, then before doing anything else I'd ASK them if they want help and what they'd like you to do. You could even tell them what kind of help you would like to give them and see if they're amenable.

Sometimes getting in the middle of a situation like that just makes it worse--and that gets more likely the fewer the number of people already involved that want you there.

SGT. SHLITZ · October 21, 2007, 05:15 PM

There may be a problem with getting a restraining order if he is a resident of the house. I feel for you because I had a similar situation.

shooter_john · October 21, 2007, 10:34 PM

Not sure about your laws in OK, but in AL a restraining order is little more than a piece of paper, and a violation of said paper is little more than a civil infraction. However, we do have a Protection from Abuse Order that is primarily to give victims of domestic violence an option to keep the offender away until other actions can be taken. Once a PFA is obtained, if it is violated, the violator goes to jail no questions asked. That can include showing up, calling on the phone, etc. If that is not an option for your family, at the very least you should be able to have him trespassed from the property. At least that way he could be arrested if he showed up again. Good luck with the situation.

SpiritWalker · October 21, 2007, 10:35 PM

Trying to reason with him is pointless. The addiction controls the addict otherwise he'd hardly be stealing from and threatening your mom and stepdad. A Meth addict is capable of absolutely anything, so dismiss any thoughts of "He'd never do..." because he will, without a second thought, if he thinks that the end results will be getting more drugs.

Make every effort to get his parole revoked and document (tape recorded if possible) every contact and phone call with authorities and what they told you in trying to get help. Write letters to your local LEO and DA and send carbon copies to state LE, the states attorney's office and your elected representatives.

Get an attorney now.

rugerdude · October 21, 2007, 10:54 PM

While he did take a pressure washer and pawn it, he did not force entry into the house to do it. Don't know if it makes any difference or not though.

The cops were called and they just sent him away. I'm not sure if my parents knew the pressure washer was gone or not at that time.

Oh, and they did ask for my help, otherwise I would not even know about this situation.

It doesn't look like I'll be staying there though. We'll see how the pursuit of a restraining order goes.

firetido · October 21, 2007, 11:02 PM

For the most part you are opening yourself to liability. I completely understand your need to help your family. In your case you need to involve law enforcement and keep them informed of the situation. The problem you run into unfortunately is the complacency officers get sometimes when dealing with the same people over and over, especially in domestic situations. It is not right but it does happen, keep that in mind and try not to come across as bothersome. If he is on parole then you HAVE to call his PO. The best advice for you is to tell HIS parents to take action, they are afterall capable adults(i'm assuming here forgive me), change locks, seek legal counsel, contact all agencies and organizations that can help him(remember, that's what you want. to help him, not get him!) get him some treatment and take it from there. He'll only take it if he wants it, so just make sure to take care of yourself! sorry if this was a little wordy, just coming from a lot of experience.

grey sky · October 21, 2007, 11:09 PM

attorney now

profesional addiction intervention is pricey if you have a preacher see if that is an option. Meth users can be very unpredictable even with family. keep a paper trail and a diary of behaviors, 911 calls , leo responses

make no deals with an addict, don't bargan.
contact alanon and educate yourself attend some meeting with as many of your family as possible those people have been "there done that " learn from others mistakes so you don't have to learn from your own

God bless.

October 21, 2007, 12:13 PM	#1
rugerdude Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2004 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	I have a small problem, need advice. Alright, I'll get right into it: My brother (half brother anyway) has been living with my mother, stepfather and their 7 year old for the past several months. He is a convicted felon and has recently started re-using meth. Yesterday he started destroying property and was kicked out, however, later that night he got back into the house and took some money (it was his that my mother was saving for him) and a power-washer (not his) to pawn, and spent the night. The police were called in the morning and he was escorted out and that was it, and when my mother asked about a restraining order, the officer said that she couldn't get one with the way things currently are. since then he has called saying that he hopes she dies and that sort of thing. Not directly threatening, but not far off either. I may go over there to stay with them in case he returns, but I need to know what level of retaliation is legal should he come back and start breaking stuff. Would mace be going too far? I know gun=bad idea unless your life is on the line, but I don't know how the use of non-lethal things goes. Although in the end, I'd rather not confront someone who is high and strung-out on meth. I'm sure that this will turn out to be a non-event as things usually do, but it never hurts to prepare for the worst. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. __________________ "The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4." Not my quote but I agree completely.

October 21, 2007, 02:46 PM	#4
Ruthless4christ Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: CNY Posts: 790	thats right I Agree. I Am All About Calling His Parole Officer. If You ask me that Will Shut It Down Quick.

October 21, 2007, 02:50 PM	#5
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	I AM NOT A LAWYER, but I smell something in the air here. You need legal advice before you go to that house with the purpose of protecting its occupants. I know, - catch 22, it needs doing, but the act of doing may have ramifications. I would want to be sure that purposely being there would not be pointed out as some sort of ambush, for lack of a better term, by an overzealous prosecuter. I would certainly want to help, just be careful in doing so. I hope some more law-savvy members read this post and respond. If you are bold enough to do such a thing, and obviously you are, then get on the phone and know where you stand. Good luck and please keep posting. While you do, watch what you say. Make no accusations/generalizations - just keep us apprised please. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.

October 21, 2007, 02:55 PM	#6
Tanzer Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Posts: 884	One more thing - do not use OC spray in the house, especially with a 7 year old. The child is another matter that needs to be addressed. I would be adament with the police over this matter. __________________ Only the ignorant find ignorance to be bliss. Only those of us who know better will suffer from it.

October 21, 2007, 02:55 PM	#7
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,973	Why can't your mother and stepfather handle this? __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

October 21, 2007, 01:45 PM	#2
porkskin Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2005 Posts: 335	Can you reason with him? Ask him not to steal from your family if he is going to steal. Ask him not to come over until he gets clean, and tell him from this point forward things are different if he comes over high. He will be considered tresspassing. Can you get him treatment? Don't know the success rate for meth though...

October 21, 2007, 04:02 PM	#9
rmfrank Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Posts: 17	I don't know about OK law, but in CA, it's all about your state of mind before the event. If you go to a house not your own, armed (noxious sprays are a weapon), with the intent of defending the occupants, you must, before you go, have taken every step that a "reasonable person" would have taken prior to doing that. Otherwise, you can get yourself in a world of trouble. Call the cops yourself. Explain the situation. Ask that they offer protection. Call the local Distric Attorney. Ask that the man be arrested. Have your family make the same calls. If the calls have no effect, then you have reason to protect your family yourself. If the calls have an effect, then the probability of a rapid response by LE to any call from your family is raised. If you do decide to go there, call 9-1-1 as soon as you even think he's coming back. Do not open the door. In most states, even CA, if a hostile perosn forces entry into your home, you have the right, ipso facto, to use force to stop them. As an aside, I would not recommend a chemical irritant spray for use against a man using methamphetamine. Chemical sprays offer only momentary disablity. If you aren't a cop and can't then slap on a pair of cuffs, all that you have bought yourself is an angrier assailant. Good luck!

October 21, 2007, 04:27 PM	#10
rugerdude Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2004 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	Alright, good to know about OC spray. And the reason my mother/stepfather can't handle it is because....well, I'm not sure really. My stepdad is being a push-over and won't really do anything about it and my mother is going to be talking with the police and seeking legal advice. Uhm, I think he might still be on probation, but I'm really not sure. I can check with my parents though. I haven't paid much attention to him and I do not consider him to be family. He's done some things like this in the past (pawning stuff for drugs, not being violent though) but they keep letting him come back despite my sister, my father and myself saying that it's a bad idea. I'll be sure that they don't make the same mistake yet again. Oh, and reasoning has been tried too many times. He is the kind of person who can look you in the eye and lie to get whatever he wants, no matter how selfish it is of him. He takes no responsibility for his actions, and cares little for others. __________________ "The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4." Not my quote but I agree completely.

October 21, 2007, 04:56 PM	#11
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	This is not a "small problem". I have dealt with drug addicts and the law and theft is enough to get someone arrested let alone a restraining order. Therefore I think there is much more to this story than is being presented. Breaking in and stealing a pressure washer is enough to send a guy to jail, much better than a restraining order.

October 21, 2007, 05:15 PM	#13
SGT. SHLITZ Junior Member Join Date: October 6, 2007 Posts: 11	There may be a problem with getting a restraining order if he is a resident of the house. I feel for you because I had a similar situation.

October 21, 2007, 10:34 PM	#14
shooter_john Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2002 Location: ALABAMA Posts: 1,472	Not sure about your laws in OK, but in AL a restraining order is little more than a piece of paper, and a violation of said paper is little more than a civil infraction. However, we do have a Protection from Abuse Order that is primarily to give victims of domestic violence an option to keep the offender away until other actions can be taken. Once a PFA is obtained, if it is violated, the violator goes to jail no questions asked. That can include showing up, calling on the phone, etc. If that is not an option for your family, at the very least you should be able to have him trespassed from the property. At least that way he could be arrested if he showed up again. Good luck with the situation. __________________ TROTAC.com

October 21, 2007, 10:35 PM	#15
SpiritWalker Member Join Date: January 10, 2007 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 61	Trying to reason with him is pointless. The addiction controls the addict otherwise he'd hardly be stealing from and threatening your mom and stepdad. A Meth addict is capable of absolutely anything, so dismiss any thoughts of "He'd never do..." because he will, without a second thought, if he thinks that the end results will be getting more drugs. Make every effort to get his parole revoked and document (tape recorded if possible) every contact and phone call with authorities *and what they told you* in trying to get help. Write letters to your local LEO and DA and send carbon copies to state LE, the states attorney's office and your elected representatives. Get an attorney now.

October 21, 2007, 10:54 PM	#16
rugerdude Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2004 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 1,443	While he did take a pressure washer and pawn it, he did not force entry into the house to do it. Don't know if it makes any difference or not though. The cops were called and they just sent him away. I'm not sure if my parents knew the pressure washer was gone or not at that time. Oh, and they did ask for my help, otherwise I would not even know about this situation. It doesn't look like I'll be staying there though. We'll see how the pursuit of a restraining order goes. __________________ "The SKS is a rifle, made the way they should be, out of a heavy block of crappy commie steel, set in an inletted semi-reshaped 2x4." Not my quote but I agree completely.

October 21, 2007, 11:02 PM	#17
firetido Member Join Date: September 20, 2007 Location: West, Tn Posts: 27	For the most part you are opening yourself to liability. I completely understand your need to help your family. In your case you need to involve law enforcement and keep them informed of the situation. The problem you run into unfortunately is the complacency officers get sometimes when dealing with the same people over and over, especially in domestic situations. It is not right but it does happen, keep that in mind and try not to come across as bothersome. If he is on parole then you HAVE to call his PO. The best advice for you is to tell HIS parents to take action, they are afterall capable adults(i'm assuming here forgive me), change locks, seek legal counsel, contact all agencies and organizations that can help him(remember, that's what you want. to help him, not get him!) get him some treatment and take it from there. He'll only take it if he wants it, so just make sure to take care of yourself! sorry if this was a little wordy, just coming from a lot of experience. __________________ 1* "From practical to Tactical in 2 seconds flat"

October 21, 2007, 11:09 PM	#18
grey sky Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2007 Posts: 324	attorney now profesional addiction intervention is pricey if you have a preacher see if that is an option. Meth users can be very unpredictable even with family. keep a paper trail and a diary of behaviors, 911 calls , leo responses make no deals with an addict, don't bargan. contact alanon and educate yourself attend some meeting with as many of your family as possible those people have been "there done that " learn from others mistakes so you don't have to learn from your own God bless.