My neighbor got burgled, will he go to jail?

[Lavan]

Got a down in the dumps neighbor. Good reason. He got burgled. They broke into his garage and stole tools ......and a handgun.
Now, the question is: Will the DA prosecute him for the gun in an accessible garage? Will he ever have homeowners insurance again? How long til the crooks USE the gun and get my neighbor sued out of his house?

Be warned. Get a safe or don't have a gun.

[4V50 Gary]

No. Unless there's some sort of state law regarding storage and access to firearms by kids, he's fine. Generally though, those laws pertain to use of firearms by the owner's kids or kids lawfully within the owner's home. Don't think they apply to burglaries and a homeowner is not responsible for the criminal acts arising from use of his/her chattel (property).

However, civilly, vehicle owners who have "negligently" left their keys in cars in a high crime neighborhood could have reasonably foresee their car being used in a crime with injuries to others (veh. accidents) and there have been civil suits along this line. Don't know of any case laws/court decisions that apply to gun owners yet.

[Poodleshooter]

However, civilly, vehicle owners who have "negligently" left their keys in cars in a high crime neighborhood could have reasonably foresee their car being used in a crime with injuries to others (veh. accidents) and there have been civil suits along this line

You have GOT to be kidding me! That's completely ridiculous While I understand that this only happens due to "contributory negligence" laws, that is still the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.
I've always used the "If someone stole your car and ran someone over with it, should you be held liable?" argument to defeat anti-gunners who brought up the prospect of civil liability for gunowners whose guns were used in the commission of a crime. Now I can't even use that argument anymore.

[CZ Gunner]

What state? Where was gun?

[4V50 Gary]

Poodleshooter - Sorry I can't cite the case. It involved a car that was left idling.

General rule of thumb is that criminal acts committed with stolen chattel impute no liability upon the holder of title or lawful possessor.

[Goet]

I buy a $60 handgun to protect my home. That's all I can afford. Now, in order to be "responsible" I have to buy a $1300 safe to store my $60 handgun?









Where did we go wrong as a society?:barf:

[AR-10]

To say get a safe or don't own a gun is way over the top.



Do you suggest that one should not own jewelry unless one owns a safe?
How about knives or toxic cleaning chemicals? Put them in a safe too? Should we pass a law that all homeowners must buy a safe large enough to acommodate the entire dwelling they live in?

If someone breaks into my house and steals a gun, they are the one doing something wrong, not me. I refuse to hamper my ability to defend myself by locking all my firearms up 24/7. If I think a safe is a good idea, that is my business. If I want to leave a loaded gun laying in plain sight in every room of the house, that is my business.

As long as I am being responsible in regard to family members or people I can expect to invite into my home, it is not the business of the government or any individual to tell me how I must store my firearms.

[Blackhawk]

4V50 Gary, fortunately civil suit verdicts don't mean much outside the bounds of the particular suit.

This burglary victim was just that, a victim, and the burglar was committing criminal trespass or at least tresspassing in order to get to the gun to steal it.

[Lavan]

And there is a law that you MUST keep your guns away from "children." Even burglar children. If a 16 yr old stole that gun and shot someone, the homeowner will be sued by the victim. If the victim forgets to sue, a lawyer will call and remind him. In fact, about 75 lawyers will call him.

And in CA-CA, you must either have a safe or SIGN an affidavit stating you HAVE one. And after doing that, contributory negligence is just one OJ Simpson jury decision away.

You must remember to be concerned about the chirren. What are you? Some kinda private property freak?

Thinkin your stuff is your own! Oughtta putcha in jail now before you allow someone to hurt themselves.

In all seriousness, a safe is about the ONLY way you can store a gun and not be risking having everything you have taken away in a lawsuit. And even then maybe not.

As for HUNTING knives. (You know....the KILLER knives) It is only a matter of one hungry lawyer who can argue that a KITCHEN knife may be OK to have out but...............a RAZOR SHARP COP-KILLER knife?????

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury.......................

[Lavan]

I will wager with anyone who wants to take the bet that I can go out on the street and convince 12 people within 3 hours that it is GROSS negligence to leave a BIG SHARP KNIFE out in plain sight.

Madam, would you please take a look at this great big SOG combat knife? Have you EVER seen such a thing? Can't even spread peanut butter with it.

Now, do you think that things like THIS should be left out in the open? Or don't you care what happens to our young people?

Be like taking candy.

[Lavan]

Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale

Effective January 1, 2002, no firearm may be sold, transferred, or manufactured within California unless that firearm is accompanied by a DOJ-approved firearms safety device (California Penal Code section 12087, et seq).


http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/wa...ction=retrieve

Note WARNING under 12088.3

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/gunsafe.htm

[AR-10]

I feel your pain, but please try not to corrupt the thinking of those of us who do not live under the tyrany that you endure daily.

I can understand one owning a safe so that one could go on vacation or leave town without having to worry about the "children" being abducted while one was away. Owning a safe to "comply" or to avoid a life altering lawsuit......I'll move first. And if every state in the union adopts such laws, I'll break the law.

But, if I end up breaking such an assinine law on principal, I will be smart enough to do it in a way that will not grieve my wife.

Now, go check your safe and make sure it's locked, and please stop rocking my "Living in the Free World" boat.

[Fred Hansen]

I started to go on a rant about Kommiefornia, but what would be the point?:barf:

[Blackhawk]

Lavan, you failed to mention that the scene was PRK in your original post.

Since it is, my answer is slightly different.

No, he won't go to jail. He's already there....

[Spackler]

I will wager with anyone who wants to take the bet that I can go out on the street and convince 12 people within 3 hours that it is GROSS negligence to leave a BIG SHARP KNIFE out in plain sight.

I could go out and convince 12 people within 3 hours that we never landed a man on the moon. It only proves how easy it is to sway people using emotional pressure, suspect "facts", and circular logic. Which of course was your point to begin with.

[Preacherman]

I'd like to respond to those who've indicated their impatience with any attempt to require them to purchase and/or use a gun safe. Let me say that I'm writing as a Christian pastor, who is also a full-time chaplain at a maximum-security penitentiary. My comments come from these dual perspectives.

Firstly, I think that most of us on TFL are responsible adults, who have some common sense about what is or is not appropriate conduct. I suggest that most of us would feel uncomfortable, at least, with the thought of our weapons being used by children as "toys", or by criminals to target third parties. I think it's part of basic responsible citizenship to ensure, as far as possible, that our weapons are not readily available to unauthorized persons. Personally, I think this is also part of the responsibility of being a Christian: don't put danger in the path of others through one's own negligence, but have concern for their well-being and safety. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Obviously, it's important to have ready access to at least one firearm for defensive needs, and I have no problem with keeping a loaded firearm in an accessible location, PROVIDED THAT no-one else can easily access it! There are too many deaths and injuries from such causes... we need to show our own responsibility by doing all we can to prevent them. I keep my "ready" weapon in a secure container, which can be opened by either pressing a sequence on a keypad or with a single key, giving me an access time from warning to first shot of only a few seconds. Mostly, when I'm at home, the weapon is on my person. At night, it's readily accessible from my bed, along with a good flashlight.

For storage of more than one weapon, a lot will depend on our budgets, our residences, and the quantity of weapons involved: but at a minimum, I would suggest that any weapon not under our direct and immediate control should be in a locked condition (i.e. a trigger lock, or preferably a cable lock through the open cylinder or slide, etc.) OR in a locked container which cannot easily be moved. Even a locked office cupboard is better than nothing!

If we own larger quantities of firearms, a more secure means of storage should be considered. If we own (say) 4-8 weapons, Wal-Mart offers a metal gun cabinet (by Stack-On and/or Sentinel) for less than $80.00 (before tax), and this can be secured to wall studs and/or the floor very easily. It will fit into many built-in closets, and costs no more than a few boxes of factory ammo. For larger collections (say, over 8 weapons), the cost of a gun safe becomes more viable, offering protection not only against theft or misuse, but also against fire. If we consider that such a gun safe costs no more than a decent rifle and scope, and calculate the amount we've invested in our firearms collection, it seems almost silly not to invest in one!

This brings me to my second perspective, that of a prison chaplain. I deal with inmates every day who have committed crimes with guns - virtually all of them stolen weapons. They share freely with me how easy it is to obtain firearms, because so many owners don't take any measures to secure them. Indeed, there are some criminal gangs who take "orders" for particular types of weapons, and then "buy" information from workers at gunshops, crooked law enforcement officers, and other sources, to find out where such weapons may be had. They love to find "collectors": one inmate boasted to me that one collector his gang had targeted yielded over 300 weapons from a single burglary! His gang sold the lot within 10 days, and cleared over $20,000 for them.

I would hate to have on my conscience that because I was too "cheap", or too self-centered, or too careless, to properly secure my weapons, someone else was robbed, or raped, or killed by someone using them... On the other hand, if I take reasonable precautions to secure my guns, and someone uses a 4x4 pickup and a towing chain to physically pull my gun safe out of my house, breaking the bolts with which it's secured to the concrete slab of my home's foundation, there's not much I can do about that - but I don't have to feel guilty, because I've done the best I could, short of building my very own bank vault!

Finally, this has the added benefit that if someone is robbed or injured or killed by a felon wielding one of my firearms, and he/she or his/her survivors sue me for contributory negligence or something like that, the case is most unlikely to go anywhere, as I will be able to demonstrate that I took reasonable and prudent precautions to prevent theft. If I have not done so, and have, indeed, been negligent, the case will cost me thousands in legal fees, to say nothing of potential damages - and I shall have my reputation ruined, being painted as one who contributed to the injury or death of another, even indirectly or unthinkingly. The cost of a gun safe is cheap in comparison to the alternative!

I hope these thoughts help. I know that many of you will disagree with me, but please, friends, let's not close our eyes to the reality of the situation. How would you like to be standing before your Creator, giving answer for your life, and have to tell him that because you wanted to spend your money on wine, women and song (or more guns!), you neglected basic safety and security precautions, with the result that others died or were crippled with your guns? Do you think He will be sympathetic? I don't!!!

[TexasVet]

In Texas, having the gun stolen during a breakin is a specific defense from the "accessability" rules.

[Lavan]

The lousy FACT is that you may be entirely RIGHT. BUT....when you get sued, you pay your lawyer right or wrong.

Let me repeat. No matter if you are right or wrong, convicted or exonerated......you begin PAYING as soon as you are sued. If you win, you may be granted restitution for court costs and then you can try to get it back by going to the scumbag who sued you and seeing if he has anything more than a used needle and $65 buxx in food stamps.

The cost to be RIGHT can easily cost 50 grand. A safe is $500-1200.

The requirement to have a gun safe is the ONLY law restricting firearms that I support. It will save your butt several times its cost. I don't sell em either. And I own a pawnshop and hear several times a week how someone has lost jewelry, cash or guns. A safe is really very cheap.

IF YOUR GUN SHOOTS ANYONE....UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE...THE CHANCES ARE VERRRRRRY GOOD THAT YOU WILL BE SUED.

[AR-10]

That may be true where you live, but it is not the case here. You are projecting your living situation onto me and trying to dictate how I should live.

You think that required safe ownership is wise and necessary. The people who passed the laws you rail against think the laws they pass are wise and necessary.

Where I live you are both wrong. I have never heard of a single case of a person being sued in the state of Iowa for the offense of being a victim of burglary. Being robbed is not considered an act of negligence. The lawsuits you are talking about were made possible because of the safe storage laws you sight in this thread. A bit of irony there.

[ojibweindian]

I don't have a gun safe, and really do not need one. My handgun is ALWAYS with/near me 24/7, and the few rifles that I own have had their bolts removed and stored separately in a small lockable container in my van.

[Preacherman]

AR-10, you have the right to your own views, and to live as you please. I'm not replying to your post as a personal attack, but to plead with you for a little more wisdom.

I don't care how many guns you own, but I DO care - very strongly indeed - how you store them. If Joe Scumbag breaks into your home in an attempt to feed his drug habit, and steals your easily-accessible guns, and sells them to a street gang in exchange for crack, and one of those gang members then uses one of your guns to attack me, or rape my sister... Friend, you can bet every cent you own that I WILL hold you accountable - yes, in a court of law, and morally and personally as well - for the criminal negligence you have shown in allowing easy access to dangerous weapons. I say this as one who owns firearms, supports the Second Amendment, and is relatively libertarian in outlook.

"No man is an island, entire unto himself..." You MUST consider the consequences for others of the choices you make. If you choose to drive an unsafe vehicle, you can plead personal choice all you like, but any right-thinking cop will pull you off the road as soon as he sees you, and order you to make your vehicle safe - PRECISELY BECAUSE it represents a danger to other road users. Whilst cops can't do the same with firearm storage - yet! - I will have no beef if laws are passed requiring us to ensure that our firearms are safely stored, and not readily accessible to criminals, or children, or other untrained persons. Let me use the example of another respondent to this thread, ojibweindian, who doesn't use a safe, but has ensured that his firearms are unusable as stored. Thanks, brother - you're helping to keep me safe, and I appreciate it!

AR-10, you complain about a previous respondent that "You are projecting your living situation onto me and trying to dictate how I should live". No, I don't think anything said here is trying to dictate how you should LIVE, nor are any of us projecting our situations on to you. However, all of us ARE threatened by the use of stolen weapons by criminals! Your attitude toward gun storage puts me, and every other honest citizen of this land, in peril. I beg you, please reconsider your approach to this issue. I don't want to restrict your rights or your lifestyle in any way, but I can't for the life of me see how safe storage of firearms impacts on those rights or that lifestyle. Please have respect for my safety, and the safety of every person in your neighborhood, and take reasonable and basic precautions to ensure that we are not put at risk by the dangerous weapons you own.

[Blackhawk]

I'm not replying to your post as a personal attack, but to plead with you for a little more wisdom.

Allow me to recast your amazing sentence to AR-10, Preacherman:

"Nothing personal, but you're dumb as a rock."

Sorry, Preacherman, your reply to AR-10 IS a personal attack.

Neither AR-10 nor anybody else is obligated to take extraordinary measures to prevent the theft of their property. You're all agitated about the prospects of further crimes being committed by criminals using stolen guns.

How about knives? I have my stored guns in a safe, but I have a 10" butcher knife in my kitchen that's sharp enough to shave with and one stroke with it across a throat would result in a quick messy death not to mention its ability to eviscerate somebody very quickly. Should I keep it in a safe?

How about the steak knives, shorter butcher knives, and a bread knife perhaps similar to the one the Brit was recently convicted of using on a burglar?

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong. I'm not obligated to keep my possessions under extremely tight security to protect you or your sister from some criminal acquiring them in a criminal manner and them using them on you or yours. I'm going to take all reasonable (to me) measures to keep from being a crime victim and having them from falling into somebody else's hands, and YOU are obligated to protect yourself should they be stolen.

While you're preaching forgiveness to the inmates, are you also preaching repentance? How much time do you spend on the offender who would be better off tossed into the drink with a millstone tied around his neck than to offend an innocent person?

YOU do not have the right to dictate to me, AR-10, or anybody else what is or is not reasonable. If you think you should be entitled to do that, go to California, get elected to the Lege, and have at it. But I won't be there....

[AR-10]

The Preacherman,

I understand your concern, but I think you are wrong.

Do you put a locking device on the wheel of your car every night before you retire? What if some kid steals it and kills someone with it? Are you going to be held morally responsible by God for your lack of foresight?

Lock up your cutlery? You know it could be used against your own family if someone comes into your house uninvited and finds it.

Holding me accountable for what happens to property I used to own before a thief stole it is a slippery slope issue that can be applied to lots of things besides firearms. Do you want me held personally responsible for power tools I used to own? If some guy steals a circular saw from me and cuts off his finger, or your arm, is it my fault? Why is gun ownership any different?

I'm all for a safe home environment. Do what your personal needs dictate. What is right for you with small chidren at home or grandchildren about has nothing to do with what goes on in my house.


Here's my complaint regarding legislating safe gun storage. It will never end. Let us suppose you think it is perfectly acceptable for the State to mandate that all my guns are locked up 24/7 unless they are in my hand. After all, that's the way you do it, so it's the way it should be done.

Then the State decides that ammo should be stored seperately. In another high dollar safe. In a seperate building. Then they decide that the guns and the ammo shall not meet until you are at the firing line.

Suddenly you are living in Australia where home defense is no longer an option.

Look at the posts from Lavan citing California law. They are holding gun owners responsible for being victims. Because they have safe storage laws.

What if you own a safe and someone breaks in and opens your $1500.00 Fort Knox like a can of tunafish? Is that your fault for not having a better safe? Where does the accountability end?

[Neal in GA]

Guns are tools. It's as simple as that. It's not your fault if someone breaks into your garage, steals a screwdriver, and stabs someone in the neck with it. Dead is dead. It doesn't matter what is used or how it's done. I cannot be held legally or morally responsible when someone else criminally acquires one of my possessions and harms others with it.

Also, who is to say where the line between prudent and imprudent is? Anyone with enough knowledge, will, and time can break into any safe. If someone breaks into your safe, is it your fault for not buying a better safe that could not as easily have been broken into? How good is good enough? If you have a cable lock on your gun, is that enough even though anyone with a decent set of wirecutters can disable that as soon as they get the gun home? What about a trigger lock? You can drill through those. All this is semantics. The point is the burglar committed a criminal act of breaking and entering to get to your guns in the first place. After this, everything else is secondary. Individuals simply cannot be held reliable for what a criminal does with something he illegally acquired in any way.

[Goet]

I simply cannot believe my eyes.


The elitists have sprung back to life on TFL.


How you people can say you support the 2nd amendment and then in the same breath demand that people pay out the nose for a mini-FT. Knox is beyond me.


Do we require those that exercise their freedom of speech to use only Pentium 4s?


Your "common sense" approach to gun safety (thank you Ms. Soccer mom. You have your victory even here on TFL) just eliminated about 85-90% of the population from ever having to worry about owning a firearm. They just can't afford the poll tax.




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