CCW 1911

[Idahoser]

The point was made that it's drastically important that the holster must have the bulk and construction that allows you to holster one-handed. My point was that this is not in any way important. It was then implied that this means I'm inviting danger by trying to holster the firearm with a floppy holster still in my belt, and I was making the point clear that (as I had stated in the earlier post) that holsters used to come with instructions that you need to remove the holster to put the gun into it, and doing it this way removes the safety concern. For the very rare occasion when a civilian CCW has to draw his weapon, there is no disaster in doing it this way. Your competition games are fine, but they are little comparable to CCW.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Idahoser

The point was made that it's drastically important that the holster must have the bulk and construction that allows you to holster one-handed. My point was that this is not in any way important...

And on what basis do you conclude that it's not important? Where have you received your training? In fact, at every major shooting school, one will be expect to be able to re-holster one handed and without looking.

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...It was then implied that this means I'm inviting danger by trying to holster the firearm with a floppy holster still in my belt, and I was making the point clear that (as I had stated in the earlier post) that holsters used to come with instructions that you need to remove the holster to put the gun into it, and doing it this way removes the safety concern......

And I made the point that no holster I've ever purchased, and I have quite a few, ever included such an instruction.

And does that mean that you never engage in live fire practice drawing from your holster? If you do, after having fired a string do you then put down your gun, remove your holster, pick up your gun, put it in the holster and then put it back on your belt?

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...For the very rare occasion when a civilian CCW has to draw his weapon, there is no disaster in doing it this way....

How do you know? Again, what training have you had that leads you to and supports that conclusion?

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...Your competition games are fine, but they are little comparable to CCW.

This really isn't a competition issue. The training at Gunsite, from Massad Ayoob and from others is not about competition. It's about self defense.

[troy_mclure]

i dont see the point of needing to reholster 1 handed either. im not gonna be holding a light on a perp while holstering my gun.

[Idahoser]

It is perhaps important to reholster one-handed if you are a policeman or playing competition games. It is not important for a civilian CCW holder to need this level of equipment, although there's no harm, there's no need either. If you feel differently, that's perfectly okay, I am offering a different perspective with I feel, a little more realistic view of the aftermath of a CCW involved incident. I do not feel the need to explain this further, so I won't be responding the next time you express disbelief that anyone could hold this opinion.

I have not been to a range in this vicinity that allows drawing from a holster. I do, of course, practice without ammo at home, drawing from concealment. Concealment, by the way, that I am more confident of BECAUSE it is too flimsy to be reholstered one-handed. Which would be a foolish thing to try to do even if the holster did have the required bulk, because clothing is likely to interfere.

One last (really) point. I use IWB. That isn't likely something you're familiar with, as it doesn't lend itself to gaming, and doesn't require that oh so tacticool vest to cover it. However, I'm not in this for the game, it's a tool I hope never to use.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...It is not important for a civilian CCW holder to need this level of equipment, although there's no harm, there's no need either. If you feel differently, that's perfectly okay, I am offering a different perspective with I feel, a little more realistic view of the aftermath of a CCW involved incident. I do not feel the need to explain this further, so I won't be responding the next time you express disbelief that anyone could hold this opinion....

It's not that I don't believe that anyone would have that opinion. I know others who share that opinion. But I have noticed that most of the people who are of that opinion have no, or little, formal defensive training.

And you certainly can offer a different perspective. But my question relates to what the bases of your opinion are. Is your opinion based on training you've received from instructors we may be unfamiliar with? Or is it something you pulled out of the air?

My opinion is based on how I've been trained at a number of schools by a number of well known instructors with excellent reputations. Not all opinions are equal. Just as the opinion of my doctor regarding matters related to my health warrants more attention than that of my mechanic, with regard to defensive gun handling I'll pay attention to the opinions of the likes of instructors at Gunsite, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob, etc.

So whether your perspective is based on a more realistic view of the aftermath of a CCW involved incident is open to question. How did you come by that view?

On the other hand, as I've been trained there may be a number of ways in which the aftermath may unfold. I can't know ahead of time how it will happen if it ever does. And one thing I've been trained to do under certain circumstances is to re-holster one handed without looking (keeping my eyes on the situation) and being prepared to draw again if things change. In any case, since I don't know how a defensive gun use might unfold, nor what I might have to do in the aftermath, I choose to keep my options open.

If you don't want to respond, that's fine with me. It's your choice.

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...I have not been to a range in this vicinity that allows drawing from a holster. I do, of course, practice without ammo at home, drawing from concealment. Concealment, by the way, that I am more confident of BECAUSE it is too flimsy to be reholstered one-handed. Which would be a foolish thing to try to do even if the holster did have the required bulk, because clothing is likely to interfere...

I carry concealed whenever I legally can, mostly on various trips to Nevada and Arizona; and I find that the holsters I use, which support one handed re-holstering, conceal very well for me.

And I've trained and practice, live fire and dry fire, both drawing from concealment and re-holstering in concealment. It can certainly be done properly and safely with good training, practice and the right equipment.

Originally Posted by Idahoser

...One last (really) point. I use IWB. That isn't likely something you're familiar with, as it doesn't lend itself to gaming, and doesn't require that oh so tacticool vest to cover it. However, I'm not in this for the game, it's a tool I hope never to use...

And now you're assuming things that simply aren't true. As I mentioned, I carry concealed whenever I legally can (I have permits for Oregon, Nevada, Arizona, Utah and Florida). And I do favor IWB carry. My usual holster is a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2.

Go back and look at post 18.

As for games, they aren't a substitute for good self defense training; but they are an excellent way to practice some basic skills like gun handling, moving with a loaded gun, moving and shooting, shooting while moving, shooting quickly and accurately, dealing with multiple targets, reloading, shooting from unconventional postures, etc. -- and doing all those thing safely and while under stress. In other words, IPSC/IDPA offer an excellent opportunity to practice the basic skills involved in effectively and efficiently using your self defense tools under stress.

[Cruncher Block]

It's important to be able to re-holster safely without removing the holster if one is taking a training class using the same gear one intends to carry.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If we have moved to a reholstering debate - after the fight, you might need both hands to help a victim, pick up stuff, etc. You can imagine - that's why an easy reholster is good. Doing it with one hand is good. Lots of us get 'shot' in the hand in FOF.

But whatever. I've been using an OWB and appropriate garments that don't shout tacticool.

[pax]

If you wear a holster that flops shut when you draw, you have two choices:

1) Fail to practice safely getting the gun out on a regular basis,

or

2) Become complacent and dangerously laid-back about basic safety rules, such as the rule about not pointing the muzzle of the gun at your own non-dominant hand while you put the gun back in the holster after each repetition in practice.

Nobody, but nobody, is practicing getting the gun out safely by undressing to reholster in between each repetition. That's just not happening. So if you have a floppy, unsafe holster, either you're not practicing at all, or you are not practicing safely.

In addition to this, if you have a flimsy floppy holster, you are almost certainly behaving in unsafe ways whenever nature calls, especially in public restrooms.

This has nothing to do with "competition versus real world," it has nothing to do with appeals to authority (even excellent authorities) and it has nothing to do with who's got a "more realistic" understanding of what happens after a fight. It doesn't have much to do with the fight at all, in fact. It has to do with the day-in, day-out reality of an ordinary person who carries a firearm for self protection.

pax

[OldMarksman]

I bought a Milt Sparks Versa Max VM-2 for my STI Guardian .45. It is very well made indeed, but the things sell out in the first day or two of each month, and the lead time after that can exceed six months.

The VM-2 is excellent for concealment, comfortable and secure carry, drawing, and reholstering.

I had purchased an Uncle Mike's IWB holster for my M&P Compact before taking my first advanced defensive pistol class, and had for some reason not noticed the impossibility of reholstering one handed. I do not want to be seen with gun in hand, or gun and holster in hand, after any kind of incident when first reponders arrrive, whether shots have been fired or not. Fast, safe, one-handed reholstering is a must. Out it went.

Because I did not want to wait for another custom VM-2, I ordered a Com-Tac Minotaur holster for the S&W.

Given the choice, I would take the VM-2. but the Minotaur meets my needs quite well; it also costs less and can be bought without a wait of several months.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by pax

...Nobody, but nobody, is practicing getting the gun out safely by undressing to reholster in between each repetition. That's just not happening. So if you have a floppy, unsafe holster, either you're not practicing at all, or you are not practicing safely.

In addition to this, if you have a flimsy floppy holster, you are almost certainly behaving in unsafe ways whenever nature calls, especially in public restrooms.

This has nothing to do with "competition versus real world," it has nothing to do with appeals to authority (even excellent authorities) and it has nothing to do with who's got a "more realistic" understanding of what happens after a fight. It doesn't have much to do with the fight at all, in fact. It has to do with the day-in, day-out reality of an ordinary person who carries a firearm for self protection.

I like the way you put this, and it's perhaps more to the point than my somewhat sour discourse. I'll need to remember it.

[Tom-C]

Glenn,

This has not moved to a reholstering debate, but it is still a commentary on holsters. Some of us just strongly believe that you must be able to reholster one handed to do it safely and that is a very important part of holster selection. How do you do a two handed reholster into a floppy holster without sweeping your other hand? Do you put the holster on with a loaded pistol in the holster?

I have a number of very good and fairly expensive holsters, but if cost is a problem, the hard plastic (kydex) holsters from Uncle Mike, Blade Tech and Forbus are excellent. My daily carry holster in the USA is an OWB Galco, strong side between 3:00 and 4:00, but I just came back from 2 months in Afghanistan and there I wore a Blade Tech. The sand over there will get into the leather, but plastic is easy to wipe off.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think most of us think, as Pax said so well, that an easy to reholster, esp. with one hand holster is what makes the most sense.

[rem1858]

I am new to this forum but not to CCW.

This has been a good read and wanted to just give my .02 cents worth.

I purchased my Para Ordnance P14-45 back in 2001 looking for a full sized 1911 to carry concealed.
I purchased different ammo and worked on the gun and to make a long story short, came up with a extremely reliable self defence gun to carry.

That took about a year of testing and tinkering to get what I have now.
A high capacity .45 that will go bang everytime I pull the trigger.

Next was a concealed carry rig.

When it comes to self defense, money is a moot point.

Hell, I paid $600. for that pistol in 2001.

So I purchase a Milt Sparks VM II and their 1.5" belt.
The VM II is horse hide with the shark skin trimmings.

I have been carrying this outfit for 8 years.

I carry at 2:00 to 2:30, can drive, walk do anything and sometimes I forget it is there.

I practice drawing and reholstering one handed of coarse.
I do not draw with 2 hands and also do not reholster with 2 hands(would seem a little odd dont you think ?)

Bottom line is a reliable pistol with a good holster followed with a good belt.
The belt is for retention of the comfortable holstered handgun.

It has worked for me and your mileage may vary...

Clarence

[FM12]

I have a stiff belt...a 5.11 thats actually plastic with a black "laminate" coveron it. Works well, but the laminate is thin and peels easily. May have to take a magic marker to it. About $30 or so. Works reasonable well, just not well constructed.

[BikerRN]

You have just hit upon the "cost" of inexspensive low quality gear.

You can spend less multiple times for a grand total that surpasses spending more once.

Biker

[12-34hom]

I"ll second the Versa Max 2, my government model 1911 & H&K compact both ride in one while ccwing.

I went to a saddle shop around where i live for a belt, found the one i wanted. Function was first priory.

I can see where Monterey concerns might dictate what holster and belt combos are used. But as another poster pointed out "cheap" ain't the way to go in this endeavor.

Thanks & good luck.

12-34hom.

[Mello2u]

thesheepdog

CCW 1911
I have a Taurus PT1911 (no bashing please)-and let me first start off that I love the gun as it is the most accurate handgun I have shot.
Secondly I finally got a CCW holster for it (Uncle Mikes IWB LH holster) and decided to carry lastnight. Let me tell you, a 1911 is so much more comfortable to carry due to it's slim profile-compared to my SAXD .357.

Also, I am curious which draw position is the best in general?

I am a thin muscular build so I don't have much meat on my torso for a cushion to compress the gun against me.
[some of OP deleted]

My response is focused on the question of which position is best.

I have personally carried my concealed 1911 in a IWB holster at the 3 o'clock position for about 25 years. I carry the same weapon, in the same holster, at the same position so I will always have the same response if needed to draw the weapon.
An illustration of just how concealable a full sized 1911 is in a IWB under a shirt:

That is a photo of me carrying this stuff:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
The belt is now about 30 years old and is vitally important to carrying the weight of the handgun and magazine pouch.

[Idahoser]

in case anybody's interested in another point of view on the reholstering issue
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact....qHxUz90HOY8%3D

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Idahoser

in case anybody's interested in another point of view on the reholstering issue...

Nonsense. All Suarez is commenting on is re-holstering without looking. He is not challenging the need to be able to re-holster one handed. And AFAIK, Suarez is the only instructor of any note promoting that view.

[Idahoser]

nonsense?

really? That's what you call my posting a link? I think maybe you're a little charged up over this. You might want to back off a little, nobody's questioning your manhood. I posted a link. Get over yourself.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Idahoser

nonsense?

really? That's what you call my posting a link?...

Well, that's what I call your posting that link in the context of the discussion we were having. The focus of that discussion was re-holstering one handed (with a subtext of doing so without looking). What does Suarez' comment on re-holstering without looking have to do with re-holstering one handed?