109 grain bullet for camp/general woods gun

[Southern Shooter]

I live in the Southeast and enjoy camping and just general kicking around in the woods. I wanted to get ya'lls' opinion on something concerning 25 yard or less protection from animals native to this area as well as from people who may want to cause harm.

I am deliberately leaving the cartridge and gun out. I am looking for opinions based on what information is presented here.

QUESTION: Based on the listed specs, would a 109 grain, .40 caliber, hard-cast bullet be useful for the above mentioned concerns? Up to what size critter would you use it on (given shot placement is attended to)?

Distance...Velocity.......Energy........Bullet path
(yards).....(feet/sec.)...(ft. lbs.)......(inch)

Muzzle.....1755.............781............- 2.0
25...........1427............517............+ 0.2
50...........1179............352............+ 1.4
75...........1025............266............+ 1.0
100...........930............219............- 1.4

Thanks...

[Pathfinder45]

What cartridge are we talking about? What gun?

[mavracer]

a 109gr 40cal is going to have crap ballistic coefficient as you can see by your velocity loss.it also has a poor sectional density so It's not going to penatrate very well.
to answer your question I'd say animals up to 50lb maybe 75lb and keep the range short your going to need as much of that little bit of velocity as you can.

[Old Grump]

Agreed, even 135 grains is minimal in my book but it would satisfy energy requirements for SD against most things and still reach out 50 yards or better if needed without a lot of recoil.

[Daryl]

Anything can be "useful" in self-defense, but I doubt your load would be "ideal".

I'd rather lose a bit of velocity at the muzzle in exchange for a heavier bullet with better SD and more momentum.

YMMV

Daryl

[Rangefinder]

Saw this early, but had other things in process. None the less, I would have been saying the same as has already been said. 109gr in .40 cal isn't much of a bullet---wad-cutter style??? Semi-wad-cutter even? It's going to be larger in diameter than is is long! If so, I'm going to forecast feeding issues right off the bat before we even get into terminal ballistics. I didn't spend much time looking, but my books don't even list a grain weight that small in .40 cal. Smallest average is 135gr JHP.

Rethink the use (intended use), as I'm not going to call this one very practical for defense. Light target round maybe--not much beyond that. For defense in .40, I'd stick up in the 165-185 range.

[Southern Shooter]

If what is written above is true, then why are hunters taking animals easily the size of a man? White tail deer for example. This would not be a primary hunting gun. Just something small, light and simple to keep around the camp. I am just wondering.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/start.html

I have been told that the lead Brenneke uses in these slugs is harder than that of other brands and can punch deeper.

[youp]

I have spent sometime down there. I can see a 410 shotgun with shot for Timber rattlers etc. I have heard of feral dogs being problems, I would whack a dog with a 410 slug. Black Bears, I would save the last one for me. Bad guy, start shootin soon and I am not sure you would even need to hit him.

A firearm for protection, one that you keep at camp beats one at the house. One on your hip will surely trump the one in the camp.

[Daryl]

If what is written above is true, then why are hunters taking animals easily the size of a man? White tail deer for example. This would not be a primary hunting gun. Just something small, light and simple to keep around the camp. I am just wondering.

I'll stand by what I said above.

Check your data. At 100 yards, you've lost essentially half of your velocity shooting through nothing but air. That doesn't indicate a good penetrating bullet IMO.

There are a lot of people who'd question a .410 shotgun slug for deer. It's pretty minimal.

As a camp gun for defense against...whatever, it can certainly be useful. A human, a coyote, or a dog isn't going to sneeze at being shot with it.

But I still don't see it as "ideal", but that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Daryl

[mavracer]

I'd much rather have any service caliber handgun and if I was stuck with a .410 I'd leave the slugs out of it and use these
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...gauge-buckshot
that's 5 .375 cal round balls. 70 gr each.

[Art Eatman]

Folks, he said 25 yards or less.

109-grain bullet at 1,755 MV is close to a GI carbine. It's about what you can get from a 6" .357 with a 110-grain bullet.

I guess that if I were really concerned about a surprise attack from a 300-pound hog or a ten-foot alligator, I'd want more gun, just from the git-go. I'd likely carry my Redhawk with 300-grain hot loads.

But for general purpose use, figuring I'm generally pretty alert when out in the boonies, that load oughta work about as effectively as any. Me, I wouldn't pull trigger just once and quit.

[Buzzcook]

In the Southeast the biggest worry is pigs. What you describe wouldn't be my choice for a pig gun. For the rest of the four footed and legless types it should be ok inside 25yds.

[rodwhaincamo]

For human threats I'd say it is marginal. Hogs, well, I'd say it's a bit weak. Any other 4 footed critter I'd say it's OK. But I carry a 44 Mag for my protection.
You could do worse and carry a little stick or a rock.

[Old Grump]

Proof is in the pudding, have you tried this load in your gun, will it feed in your gun, will it cycle the action of your gun, how accurate is it in your gun. Are your numbers from an outside source or from your chronograph and your gun. Numbers do not always tell us what we think we know.

Bunch of old dinosaurs here with lots of bullets down range. We aren't always right but we do have a pretty good idea of what will work and what won't because we have tried it or something similar.

You asked, we gave our opinion, that's the best we can do, your gun, your bullets now its up to you.

[Southern Shooter]

Well, I will clarify a few of things:

This is NOT a not to be used in a primary hunting format.

It is for defense, dispatching of varmints, or fun.

This is a gun that would be kept at the camp, able to be handled by all experience-levels and sizes of persons in the party, simple to understand, sturdy, and versitile. It is nothing more than a break-barrel single-shot .410 shotgun.

At 25 yards I can group the Brenneke slugs in groups of 2".

Anyway, given the area I live in, and all the other human factors to consider, this seemed like an acceptable compromise.

As for dealing with more difficult problems...well, my concealed-carry weapon is a Ruger Speed-Six .357 Magnum. In the woods, it is loaded with either 158 grain soft-points or 180 grain hard-cast .357 Magnum rounds.

[Old Grump]

Now you see the questions, your original question was for a .40 caliber. I am a fan of the .410 and would not hesitate to take anything on but a grizzly or a bison under 50 yards with that gun. My slugs are a bit heavier and so slower but you should see what they do to a gallon of hard frozen ice at 25 yards. up to 2 degrees today and I was shooting the .410, 44 spcl and my 25-20. What can I say, its cold outside, my boat doesn't work on ice and I don't ski so I shoot. Beats the dickens out of day time TV.

[Southern Shooter]

Did not mean to be misleading...but, I have received so much flack about the .410. My experiences has been that as soon as I mention the .410 I often see the mind shut down and the unfounded opinions rise up. It seemed to be written off very quickly as a useful tool. So, I guess I was doing kind of a blind-study approach to this question.

Anyway, the Brenneke slug I was referring to seems rather capable of stopping a threat. I have attached some pictures of this brand/type of slug. One of the pictures shows a slug that was shot by someone into a clay bank about 60 yards away. Seems like it being made of a harder alloy and maintaining its shape as it did here, that it would offer deeper penetration and damage at LESS THAN 25 yards.

Thanks for the feedback...

[treg]

Thanks for the thread SS.

I've been thinking a lot lately of light for caliber hardcast bullets (slugs) at higher speeds.

[wyobohunter]

A co-worker of mine shot a black bear with his Halibut gun in Prince William Sound two summers ago.

It is nothing more than a break-barrel single-shot .410 shotgun.

His Halibut gun just so happens to be an H&R Snake Charmer
http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/defa...35_13769_13872

He used a 3" slug and hit him/her in the shoulder from about 50 yds. He told me that the Bear "looked pretty insulted" when hit. Sadly, the Bear was never recovered. Based on that I wouldn't count on it for much more than bad guys, bad dogs and snakes all at close range. Maybe that's all you need to worry about in your neck O' the woods.

[youp]

Killed a black bear one year. He weighed 190 dressed and on a scale. He had a broken front shoulder. It was kind of green and had a 12 ga Forster style slug in it. I guess he had a bad day followed by a really bad day.

I think a 410 with a Brenneke slug would be a cool camp gun. Personally, I find the ammo a bit on the pricey side for plinking and such. (Pardon for calling it plinking to the 'Plinking Purists' among us)

[semi_problomatic]

I'm from the south east and I've seen a sight more snakes than I have hogs and humans intending me harm. I prefer my .45 LC revolver with a staggered load. start out with 2 CCI shot capsules, the other 3 are round nose. (I don't keep a round under the hammer). The way I figure if the shot don't kill it, it may stun it enough so the real bullets have a chance to be aimed. The shot capsules do a pretty good job of making mince meat out of the no legged critters.