Colt Agent - Working DAO

[whitebb]

I sent my Colt Agent to a Gunsmith to be refinished and repaired. (Timing etc off). He emailed today that it will be returned tomorrow, but it is DAO. He stated that someone replaced the cylinder ratchet in the past with double action only ratchet, hense no single action.
Question: I trust this gunsmith but this sounds far fetched. Would you concur or disagree?

[Dfariswheel]

STRONGLY disagree.
There's no such thing as a "double action ratchet".
In fact, the ejector ratchet has NOTHING whatever to do with whether a revolver is single action or double action.

The "ratchet" is actually the ejector on the cylinder that the hand or pawl pushes against to rotate the cylinder.
The "gear teeth" on the back of the ejector is the "ratchet".
As far as the ejector is concerned, there's no difference between single action and double action, the hand pushes these teeth to rotate the cylinder.

On the Colt, like most DA revolvers, the only way to convert to double action-only is to alter the hammer so as to remove the single action cocking notch entirely.

If I were you, I'd be having an intimate and immediate conversation with the gunsmith.....I detect the odor of a rodent.

[whitebb]

Here is his explaination:

someone replaced the original cylinder ratchet.
replaced with dao ratchet, that was why it was locking up in single action mode.
I tried to find another one , but no luck, so its dbl action only until I can find you one.

After researching, I believe the Sear (on the trigger) is messed up, or the Single Action cocking notch is worn out. Thoughts?

[Sarge]

Did the gun ever work in both SA & DA? Was the agreed uopn work that the gunsmith was supposed to bring the gun back to factory function?

If either of those is the case, your gunsmith is peeing down your leg, telling you it's raining, and then asking you to buy the bucket to carry it away in. I have fitted a few hands to D-frame Colts and it's not for the faint of heart. I have also never seen a DAO Colt revolver, including a lot of Dick Specials that were equipped with a hammer shroud. I'm sorry to say that it sounds to me like your gunsmith is trying to sell you a half-assed fix.

[whitebb]

I agree. I just emailed him. He says it shoots nice. I believe the Trigger ( Single Action Sear) or Hammer (Single Action Cocking notch are not fitted properly/worn out.
The gun never worked properly period. The cylinder didn't lock up, or even line up with barrel! Parts replaced as per email:

"locking lug was worst to fit !
spring was also replaced, hand spring replaced, cylinder gap bushing also replaced. Timing wasn't to bad after parts installed, had to work one chamber more then rest."

It is supposed to be repaired to factory spec.
It really sucks because he said it worked perfectly, I paid, its being shipped back and he emails after payment to tell me DAO! VENT ON:Typical American crapmanship! Most people are so ..incompetent and lazy they are only good at ripping others. I notice this in my field as well. VENT OFF.

[Dfariswheel]

"locking lug was worst to fit !
spring was also replaced, hand spring replaced, cylinder gap bushing also replaced. Timing wasn't to bad after parts installed, had to work one chamber more then rest."

On a Colt Agent there IS no "hand spring".
There IS no "cylinder gap bushing".
You're dealing with a "gunsmith" who doesn't even know the names of the parts of the gun he's "fixing".

Colt ejectors are almost impossible to find in new condition, since these are factory restricted items.
Colt only sells new ejectors as part of a cylinder and ejector assembly.
This is because ejectors have to be fitted to both the cylinder AND the frame.
Since used ejectors have already BEEN fitted, to a different gun, they don't fit some other gun, at least not properly.
This means he's probably installing a USED part that almost certainly will NOT fit or function properly.

I strongly suggest you get your gun back, get whatever money back you can get, and send the gun in to Colt for a PROPER repair by people who at least know what the name of the parts are.

Colt revolvers really are "different", and require the services of COLT qualified pistolsmiths.
Just because a gunsmith knows about S&W or Ruger revolvers absolutely does not qualify him to work on Colt's.
The problem is, too many S&W and Ruger pistolsmiths, THINK "It's just another revolver, and I can figure it out".

No it's NOT just another revolver, and all too often they can't figure it out.
When they can't, good guns get botched, and what was a fairly simple repair turns into a major repair of damaged parts that weren't damaged to start with, plus the repair of the original problem.

I repeat: Get your gun and money back and talk to Colt.

[whitebb]

I am NOT putting more money into this gun. After buying and "Fixing', I'm into it for over $400. Simply not worth it. I'll trade it off or bury it in my safe.

Latest email re ratchet: no because the ratchet has single deep groove and not angled slanted grooves

[Ausserordeutlich]

Did you contact Colt to see if they still repaired those old Agents, Cobras, etc.?

[whitebb]

No I didn't. I was told don't go to Colt by several people because they don't repair them properly. Water under the bridge now, I should have sent to Colt. I guess next show she gets sold off. I refuse to put more money into it.

[Ausserordeutlich]

I own a like-new Cobra. Can't bring myself to regress to carrying a wheelgun, but it's still a beautiful, interesting piece. Maybe the guys who told you not to use Colt will refund the gunsmith's charges for screwing up your Agent.

[Dfariswheel]

"Latest email re ratchet: no because the ratchet has single deep groove and not angled slanted grooves".

No such ejector was ever made by Colt.
I suggest demanding my money back, then sending it to Colt.

It never ceases to amaze me at people who will tell you that the company that made something is not competent to repair it.
True, you do get occasional poor quality work from companies, but I seldom hear of a case where they don't make it right.

If you decide to dump it, be honest, and tell the buyer there's problems with it.

As a public service to prevent other botch jobs to other people, WHO is this "gunsmith" you're dealing with?

[Sarge]

Amen, Dfariswheel- I wanna know who this gomer is myself. I hate it when people masquerade as pistolsmiths and pull crap like this.

[whitebb]

I refuse to name names. I will without hesitation if said party does not make things right.
If I dump it I will obviously be honest about it. If it goes into the safe, maybe in a few years it will be cost effective to repair it.(considering Colt prices rising)

[GrantCunningham]

This is sad. It angers me greatly when "gunsmiths" who aren't qualified to work on Colts accept jobs like this.

Yes, Colt occasionally messes up a gun - it's true. However, in my experience they do so at no greater rate than any other maker. I've seen botched jobs from Ruger and S&W (even from the "Performance Center") as well, but that would not keep me from sending a gun to them. Why? Because like Colt, if they mess up they always make it right.

Let me put it another way: I work on Colts every single day, and have developed a nationwide clientele for my work. When someone contacts me with a Colt needing a repair (as opposed to custom work, which is what I specialize in), I always refer them to Colt. I wouldn't put my reputation on the line recommending a place that couldn't deliver!

I join the chorus asking that you name this "gunsmith." You'll be doing the Colt community a service.

[James K]

Not to be a pain about it, but I think I know about as much about those Colts as most pistol folks, and I second what has been said here. Colt never made a DAO pistol, or a DAO ratchet. I suspect that with the new ratchet, the hand is too long and won't allow the hammer to come back far enough for the sear to reach the SA notch, and he doesn't know how to fix it, but that is just a guess. Anyway, he is full of it and the sooner you get your gun back the better. I hope you can get at least some of your money too, but that may be too much to hope for. You are right that you have spent more than the gun is worth.

Some time back, I posted (here?) a question as to why people won't send a gun back to the factory and I got roundly flamed by people reciting a whole list of (usually very old) stories about how Colt, or S&W, or Ruger, or Forehand & Wadsworth, messed up their, their father's, their cousin's, or their uncle's gun and how they now do all their own work with a bastard file and a ten pound hammer, and the work is always perfect.

IMHO, if you want a repair job done right, return the gun to the factory. Even some customizers really are not competent to do repairs, especially on Colt DA's. As noted above, they really are a different breed of cats.

P.S. I said I know them, I didn't say I liked them, so please don't send me any to fix.

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

As stated by others, there's no such thing as a DAO ratchet. The gunsmith doesn't know older Colt revolvers. Click on the link to learn about your Colt Revolver. Its dated and could use updating.How Colts Work line

[4V50 Gary]

BTW, if my memory serves me right, there's a single action notch on the hammer. Grind off that notch, and you have a DAO gun. Replacing the hammer may be what you need. This requires finding one and then ensuring that it is fitted to your gun (sometimes they'll drop in if you use the original sear, sear spring and sear pivot pin).

[whitebb]

I have the Colt book K. and it looked exactly the same. The smith said he talked to Colt regarding what parts he needed. I wonder if he sent it to Colt? I will not name him yet as he stated he will make it right. Let you know in another week or so.
4V50, thank you for the input!

[Dfariswheel]

When you get the Colt back, here's some "ammunition" you can use to thoroughly inspect it to be SURE it's in proper working order.

If the revolver fails ANY of these checks:
A. The revolver was NOT sent in to Colt, since Colt does it right.
B. The revolver IS NOT in correct working order, no matter what this "gunsmith" may claim.

Here's how to check the older style Colt actions for proper timing:

To check Colt timing:

BOLT RETRACTION AND "SNAP BACK".
Open the cylinder and look at the small "lug" in the bottom of the cylinder window. This is the cylinder locking bolt.

Cock the hammer, and watch as the bolt retracts into the frame and pops back out.

The bolt MUST begin to retract THE INSTANT the hammer begins to move.
There MUST be NO (ZERO) hammer movement possible before the bolt starts to retract.

The bolt should retract smoothly with no hesitation until it's fully retracted, then it MUST pop back out with a clean "snap".
There should be no hesitation, and no amount of "creeping" back out.

CYLINDER UNLOCKING.
Close the cylinder.
Use your left thumb or fore finger to again cock the hammer, closely watching the cylinder bolt as you SLOWLY cock the hammer.

As the hammer comes back, the bolt will retract away from the cylinder.

The bolt MUST retract far enough to unlock the cylinder BEFORE the cylinder begins to rotate.

If the bolt is still slightly engaged with the cylinder lock notch, the cylinder will be attempting to turn while still partially locked.
This produces a "catch" or "hard spot" in the trigger pull and will damage both the bolt and the cylinder lock notches.
This often appears as metal "pulled out" of the lock notches, with rounded off and burred notches.

BOLT DROP TIMING.
Continue to cock the hammer, laying your right index finger on the cylinder just lightly enough to prevent "free wheeling".

Watch for the bolt to drop back onto the cylinder. WHERE the bolt drops is CRITICAL.

The bolt MUST drop onto the leade or ramp in front of the actual cylinder notch.
If the bolt drops too soon, (in front of the notch ramp), it will mar the finish of the cylinder.

The bolt SHOULD drop into about in the middle of the leade or ramp.

If the bolt drops late, (farther toward the actual locking notch) the revolver may display "cylinder throw-by".
In this condition, during double action shooting the cylinder may rotate PAST the locking notch, and fire in an unlocked condition.

It's the nature of the Colt action, that a hesitant or jerky trigger pull by the user can induce throw-by in even a properly tuned Colt.
The Colt trigger should be pulled with a smooth, even pull, with no sudden jerks or hesitation at the beginning.

CYLINDER LOCKUP.
Continue to pull the hammer back and both watch and listen for the bolt to drop into the cylinder lock notch.

The bolt MUST drop into the actual lock notch BEFORE the hammer reaches full cock.

The most common Colt mis-time situation is the hammer cocks before the bolt drops into the lock notch. (Hammer is cocked, but cylinder isn't locked).
In this condition, with the hammer fully cocked, you can push the cylinder slightly, and you will hear the "CLICK" as the bolt drops into lock.

In my experience, most Colt's leave the factory with the bolt dropping a little late into the leade, but usually wear in to correct timing.

If the bolt drops onto the cylinder early, no real problem, but there will be extra finish wear.

If the bolt drops late (closer to the lock notch) the cylinder may "throw by" or rotate TOO far in double action and this can cause off-center primer hits and firing while unlocked.

Each of these checks should be done on EACH chamber. All of these checks are better done individually. In other words, do the bolt retraction check on all six chambers, then do the bolt drop test, and so on.

A properly tuned Colt will:
Have a smoothly functioning bolt with no sticky or hesitant movement.

Unlock before the cylinder begins to turn.

The bolt will drop onto the middle of the ramp.

The bolt will drop into the lock notch before the hammer reaches full cock.

Have a smooth trigger pull, which does "stack", or get heavier as the trigger is pulled.

[whitebb]

Got the gun back today, EXTREMELY UNSATISIFIED. A child could have refinished it better. Chipped and obvious air bubbles, as well as over spray everywhere (and it was Duracoated, and 2 toned) The cylinder does NOT open, and it spins freely. The trigger sticks back after pulling it! This Gun is now WORTHLESS, and extremely dangerous. I will publish his name tonight so everyone stays away. I want him to refund the money or I will have to warn everyone and try to hurt his business.