Point shooting - Page 2

Sweatnbullets · August 24, 2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

and the graveyard is full of guys killed by .22s...

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I'll save point shooting for when my J frame is already in contact with my attacker's gut.

Musketeer, you just said this to a man that personally and extensively trained with Jelly Bryce, Col. Askins, and a couple of other world renown gun fighters (Bill Jordon, I believe.)

I will take leadbutts advice over any man that I have ever trained with or met on the gun forums.

Sweatnbullets · August 24, 2007, 07:24 PM

About As Concise As I Can Get
________________________________________
I had someone ask me how you point shoot with a rifle recently. So instead of running down a bunch of techniques, I just explained the concept of point shooting. As Matt recently pointed out, point shooting is not so much a bunch of techniques as it is a simple fluid concept.

This is about as concise as I get, while still explaining exactly what is done. The more that I think about it, the more that I like it. Here is what I wrote.

*******************************************************

Point shooting with a long arm is the exact same concept of point shooting with a handgun. The basics, all comes down to basic geometry. The advanced application, all comes down to hand/eye coordination that is the bi-product of the basic geometry.

Basic Geometry

Squaring up to the threat

Shooting from your centerline

Gun parallel to the ground

These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly.

But this is stance and grip dependent and does not bring out the real benefits of point shooting

Advanced Application

Is simply the hand/eye coordination that is a bi-product of the basic geometry.

The centerline is replaced by the visual centerline. Meaning that where ever you look, if the gun is on your visual centerline, you have taken care of the "squaring up" and the "centerline" portion of the basic geometry. The vertical alignment is now taken care of.

This leaves the horizontal alignment. The "parallel to the ground" is your "default." Hand/eye coordination is now a bi-product off of this known "default."

Just focus on the desired point of impact and your mind, eyes, and body will make the adjustments to get the hits.

It really is that simple!

This covers from line of sight all the way to "from the hip".....and everything in between.

leadbutt · August 24, 2007, 07:54 PM

Musketeer, spoken like a true believer in the "MT", as I have always posted and stated each to their own.

But any body who discounts "PS",as far as I'm concerned is doing nothing but throwing the baby out with the bath water.

"PS" is neither fish or fowl, , Its a tool plain and simple. And there has been more gentlemen and genteel-women whom have survived due to its basic inbreed hard wire body reflexes then not.

RevolverLover · August 24, 2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

I will take leadbutts advice over any man that I have ever trained with or met on the gun forums.

Including Gabe's?

Sweatnbullets · August 24, 2007, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Including Gabe's?

Yes, Gabe's, 7677's, Matts, and Guantes.

Niether of them would consider that disrespectful.

Momma did not raise no fool! Experience trumps all!

MyXD40 · August 24, 2007, 11:23 PM

I can point and shoot no issues. I just bought myself a new digital camera with a great video recorder built into it, so next time I'm out in the back country, I'll be sure to have my buddy video me from a draw out of my holster, shooting water jugs. The way to prove I did shoot it, if water is still pouring out. Practice makes perfect. I don't expect anyone to believe that 9 times out of 10 I can point and shoot and always hit my target. 5 feet, or 50 feet away. Again, I'll post video for proof, but until then, can't bash me. And I use my trusty XD .40 service model

Hard Ball · August 25, 2007, 02:14 PM

"Basic Geometry

Squaring up to the threat

Shooting from your centerline

Gun parallel to the ground

These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly."

YES! Those are the basics.

Mannlicher · August 25, 2007, 02:24 PM

Answers will differ of course, but to me 'point shooting' is something done with a J frame snubbie at real close ranges. If you are not doing an instant response shot at close range, you probably have the time to aim, and increase your chance of hitting.

Night Watch · August 25, 2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Squaring up to the threat

Shooting from your centerline

Gun parallel to the ground

That's Applegate!

All of which are worthless unless you know, 'How' a pistol should feel in your hand when the barrel is level and in-line with the target.

I've always considered myself to be a better than average point shooter; (I've, certainly, done enough of it!) but, if I pick up an unfamiliar pistol and try to point shoot with it, I'll frequently find that I'm off the target.

Good - consistent - point shooting ain't all that easy to do; it requires an intimate familiarity with the weapon. I've watched plenty of wannabe point shooters screw up, and miss by a, 'mile'. Like any other shooting skill: There are those who can, and those who can't; but, those who can have to practice a lot.

Don't know about you; but I've, yet, to meet the gunman who can point shoot well at or beyond 10 yards. Now, if you want to talk about, 'squaring up the back of the slide' and hitting rapidly and accurately at 10 to 12 yards ... Well, that I can believe!

Anyway, maybe, somebody should begin this thread over again; it really didn't get off to a very good start.

Groundhog · August 25, 2007, 08:54 PM

Actually, this thread served my purpose quite well. I've learned a bit about something I knew little about. Obviously, there is a ton to be said about point shooting and it appears that there are a few different ideas on both the use of it and the how to of it. I hope more folks say more about it here or start another thread about other aspects of it.

I simply wanted to know what to expect accuracy wise and I think I got plenty of info on that.

matthew temkin · August 25, 2007, 11:00 PM

As you can see there is still much controversy over point shooting.
In the end I will go with LeadButt.

oldbillthundercheif · August 26, 2007, 03:07 AM

The pure Applegate / WWII spook / Hong Kong PD technique is only good out to about 5-7 yards for me. But...

There is another style that is outstanding. If you form your arms into a sort of collapsed isoscelese position, point shooting become a whole different bag of walnuts. With your arms set up at equal angles and the pistol lined up to shoot directly to the 12 o'clock of your torso, shots tend to go right where you point your body.

The collapsed isoscelese technique is good out to 10+ yards. Try it. When I first was given the rundown on the deal it seemed kind of goofy, but after a few magazines I was amazed.

threegun · August 26, 2007, 06:17 AM

Musketeer, I will almost always use the front site. The almost is when even or behind in the reactionary curve. I promise you that the longest 2 to 3 tenths of a second in your life will be raising your weapon from the hip to pick up your sights while your foe has you at gun point. In some situations getting lead on target as fast as possible trumps precise accuracy. For the rest I'm finding that front site like you.

In gun retention situations or knife/blunt weapon attack defense situations or as mention above when even or behind in the reactionary curve....point shooting skills shine.

Night Watch · August 26, 2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

There is another style that is outstanding. If you form your arms into a sort of collapsed isoscelese position, point shooting become a whole different bag of walnuts. With your arms set up at equal angles and the pistol lined up to shoot directly to the 12 o'clock of your torso, shots tend to go right where you point your body.

Interesting!

That's exactly the way Fairbairn taught the Shanghai Police how to do it. For some reason, by the time of the Second World War the stance remained, pretty much, the same; but, the grip changed to one hand - Which is the way Applegate, 'borrowed' it from Fairbairn and ultimately taught it to American law enforcement.

(Remember those old FBI training films?)

Sweatnbullets · August 26, 2007, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Good - consistent - point shooting ain't all that easy to do; it requires an intimate familiarity with the weapon. I've watched plenty of wannabe point shooters screw up, and miss by a, 'mile'. Like any other shooting skill: There are those who can, and those who can't; but, those who can have to practice a lot.

I am going to have to disagree with this. The guys that I teach point shooting with have never found anyone that could not point shoot well with in thirty minutes of instruction. It really just comes down to teaching them how to do it correctly. Wannabes may not be consistant, but a wannabe does not have the proper training.

We should not be comparing wannbees with point shooters. You either know how to do it or you don't.

I have also had a couple of students that went a very long time with out being able to get the range after they trained with me. One did not shoot for four months.....the other for a year. They were amazed at the retention level of the skill set. Putting in the work will always lead to improvement, but on the whole, point shooting is a low maintenace skill set once you have been trained to do it properly.

**4V50 Gary** · August 26, 2007, 11:42 AM

Concur with Sweatnbullets. I was taught point-shooting at the academy and besides aimed fire, teach my shooters point-shooting. It's a matter of drill, drill and more drill. Start them off at short range and as they progress, move the target back.

Aim fire when you can, point shoot when it's close (and that depends on individual comfort, confidence and skill level).

Rob Pincus · August 26, 2007, 12:25 PM

I have a boatload of empiracle evidence that you can teach people how to shoot effectively significantly faster if you teach them an intuitive, unsighted approach first and then, when they are comfortable and capable of defending themselves in a realistic situation, teaching them more mechanical skills for higher precision... including sighted fire.
Without this approach, we would not be able to take our recreational guests and corporate groups through the 360 degree maze with reactive targets after having shot less than 20 rounds in their lives. 10 minute lecture, 10 minutes on the range and one magazine of rounds is enough for most people with no experience to learn "extend-touch-press" and be able to engage reactive threat mannequins with multiple fast shots out to 20'.

Zombie Steve · August 26, 2007, 12:42 PM

A little comic relief:

I'm not bashing anyone here - lots of good ideas and some new things to try next time I go out. Regarding the original question, how's this sound - pick a method, start at 3-7 yards (paper targets - you don't want splashback from steel) and move back from there until you're confident you've got enough room between you and a BG to aquire your sites... then try another method.

Groundhog · August 26, 2007, 12:48 PM

ROFL, love that pic!

Lurper · August 26, 2007, 03:24 PM

Not to stir up old debates, but my experience with point shooting is that the advocates of ps that I have seen shoot and shot with cannot shoot any faster than I can using the sights.

This is not to say that I don't point shoot. At targets within about 5-6 ft, I will point shoot. When I do, it is a bit faster because I don't fully present the gun, however at targets beyond that distance I have not seen a payoff.

Rob Pincus · August 26, 2007, 04:08 PM

One of the classic mistakes in this discussion is to talk only about distance... it is like trying to solve an algebra problem with 2 missing variables.. you never really get an answer.

Not to pick on you, Lurper, but in your example is the most recent: you said "any target at 5 or 6 ft"... What about a thumbtack at 6'? What about a hostag taker holding a child in front of their body at 6'?

The need for precision is dictated by many factors, including distance, size, etc...

This is why anyone who tries to lock themselves into one camp of the other or sets arbitrary distance or size related stipulations on when they will or will not use unsighted fire is never going to "get it".....

Deaf Smith · August 26, 2007, 06:01 PM

Since all handgun rounds are weak and rather low in stopping power, and the chance of one's assilant being on drugs, or adrinilin, then the need for persision is ALWAYS there.

Skip the 'COM' hit. COM takes up alot of area. Hits have to be good, very good, or there is a good chance the BG won't even feel the hit and pay you back. A hit in the gut, arm, leg, or any periheral hit on the torso just won't cut it.

The size of the area you have to hit, skipping the CNS, is more like six inches, what is more the size and shape changes as the angle of the shot changes.

Spray-n-pray won't cut it. Not saying point shooting can't get hits, or that it won't get good hits, but point shooting isn't the ONLY way to get fast good hits.

Sweatnbullets · August 26, 2007, 06:35 PM

Quote:

This is why anyone who tries to lock themselves into one camp of the other or sets arbitrary distance or size related stipulations on when they will or will not use unsighted fire is never going to "get it".....

Exactly!

Some how many people seems to forget that any point shooting instructor that is worth their weight in salt teachs an integration of sighted and unsighted fire. This integration should be base on the students strengths, weaknesses, and abilities. This is all about personal limitations.....not what somebody else can do.

It is not about what the instructor can do with his gun....it is what the student can do after training with that instructor.

leadbutt · August 26, 2007, 07:03 PM

With every thing posted, it seems only a few believe in a one system approach, which is fine if it works for them. But and this is only in my experience, and IMO based on combat and shootings in the line of duty so to speak, no one system covers all angles or needs.

I am one who has never been bothered by the aspect of speed, and can say I know a few sight users' only that most definitely shoot faster than I, but I always seem to come out ahead when running scenario's that require shots on humanoid targets.

As I posted "PS" isn't the end all to be all its a tool to learn and use when needed.

When I was younger and had the eyes of eagles and shot hundreds of rounds a week ,, a shot at 75 yards using "PS" was as easy as pie. but not any more.

Shooting to me is Zen/ In the Zone as the younger guys say.

JoeBlackSpade · August 26, 2007, 09:15 PM

Now that the subject has branched out into so many interesting and complicated sub-categories, I'd like to ask a question, and make it even more complicated:

Are we getting one-dimensional?

There is very little discussion in this thread outside of the realm of the handgun. When we talk about point shooting, why isn't there discussion on the shotgun? By most accounts, the shotgun is the ultimate close quarters point-shooting weapon. It accompanies law enforcement on the streets of America, military on patrols in urban environments, and the American outdoorsman in the game-filled fields in our own back yards. As a means of self defense, there is no other weapon in the world that can deliver a solid burst of 8 or 9 rounds in one shot, and then immediately transition to being used as a close-quarters two-handed blunt-force weapon, capable of smashing an attacker using the butt-stock- or even thrusts using the barrel if needed.

Having mentioned it up in the 2nd post, I think that no thread on Point Shooting could be complete without some discussion of employing the shotgun in this capacity. When a weapon is inherently designed to shoot multiple pellets through a smooth bore, firing 2 and 3/4 inch shells as propellant, there can be no mistake as to its capability and application.

Quite simply, I believe the shotgun is the perfect point-shooting weapon, capable of projecting knock down power at extremely close range.

August 24, 2007, 07:24 PM	#27
Sweatnbullets Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Posts: 263	About As Concise As I Can Get ________________________________________ I had someone ask me how you point shoot with a rifle recently. So instead of running down a bunch of techniques, I just explained the concept of point shooting. As Matt recently pointed out, point shooting is not so much a bunch of techniques as it is a simple fluid concept. This is about as concise as I get, while still explaining exactly what is done. The more that I think about it, the more that I like it. Here is what I wrote. ***************************************************** Point shooting with a long arm is the exact same concept of point shooting with a handgun. The basics, all comes down to basic geometry. The advanced application, all comes down to hand/eye coordination that is the bi-product of the basic geometry. Basic Geometry Squaring up to the threat Shooting from your centerline Gun parallel to the ground These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly. But this is stance and grip dependent and does not bring out the real benefits of point shooting Advanced Application** Is simply the hand/eye coordination that is a bi-product of the basic geometry. The centerline is replaced by the visual centerline. Meaning that where ever you look, if the gun is on your visual centerline, you have taken care of the "squaring up" and the "centerline" portion of the basic geometry. The vertical alignment is now taken care of. This leaves the horizontal alignment. The "parallel to the ground" is your "default." Hand/eye coordination is now a bi-product off of this known "default." Just focus on the desired point of impact and your mind, eyes, and body will make the adjustments to get the hits. It really is that simple! This covers from line of sight all the way to "from the hip".....and everything in between. __________________ "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts

August 24, 2007, 07:54 PM	#28
leadbutt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2002 Location: Tidewater,Virginia Posts: 289	Musketeer, spoken like a true believer in the "MT", as I have always posted and stated each to their own. But any body who discounts "PS",as far as I'm concerned is doing nothing but throwing the baby out with the bath water. "PS" is neither fish or fowl, , Its a tool plain and simple. And there has been more gentlemen and genteel-women whom have survived due to its basic inbreed hard wire body reflexes then not. __________________ "I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught" Sir Winston Churchill

August 25, 2007, 02:14 PM	#32
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	"Basic Geometry Squaring up to the threat Shooting from your centerline Gun parallel to the ground These three things are virtually fool proof. It is almost impossible to miss when these three basic geometry points come together. This is why people are able to point shoot the very first time that they do it.....when taught correctly." YES! Those are the basics. __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

August 25, 2007, 02:24 PM	#33
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	Answers will differ of course, but to me 'point shooting' is something done with a J frame snubbie at real close ranges. If you are not doing an instant response shot at close range, you probably have the time to aim, and increase your chance of hitting. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

August 25, 2007, 08:54 PM	#35
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	Actually, this thread served my purpose quite well. I've learned a bit about something I knew little about. Obviously, there is a ton to be said about point shooting and it appears that there are a few different ideas on both the use of it and the how to of it. I hope more folks say more about it here or start another thread about other aspects of it. I simply wanted to know what to expect accuracy wise and I think I got plenty of info on that. __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

August 24, 2007, 11:23 PM	#31
MyXD40 Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2007 Posts: 541	I can point and shoot no issues. I just bought myself a new digital camera with a great video recorder built into it, so next time I'm out in the back country, I'll be sure to have my buddy video me from a draw out of my holster, shooting water jugs. The way to prove I did shoot it, if water is still pouring out. Practice makes perfect. I don't expect anyone to believe that 9 times out of 10 I can point and shoot and always hit my target. 5 feet, or 50 feet away. Again, I'll post video for proof, but until then, can't bash me. And I use my trusty XD .40 service model

August 25, 2007, 11:00 PM	#36
matthew temkin Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 363	As you can see there is still much controversy over point shooting. In the end I will go with LeadButt.

August 26, 2007, 03:07 AM	#37
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	The pure Applegate / WWII spook / Hong Kong PD technique is only good out to about 5-7 yards for me. But... There is another style that is outstanding. If you form your arms into a sort of collapsed isoscelese position, point shooting become a whole different bag of walnuts. With your arms set up at equal angles and the pistol lined up to shoot directly to the 12 o'clock of your torso, shots tend to go right where you point your body. The collapsed isoscelese technique is good out to 10+ yards. Try it. When I first was given the rundown on the deal it seemed kind of goofy, but after a few magazines I was amazed.

August 26, 2007, 06:17 AM	#38
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Musketeer, I will almost always use the front site. The almost is when even or behind in the reactionary curve. I promise you that the longest 2 to 3 tenths of a second in your life will be raising your weapon from the hip to pick up your sights while your foe has you at gun point. In some situations getting lead on target as fast as possible trumps precise accuracy. For the rest I'm finding that front site like you. In gun retention situations or knife/blunt weapon attack defense situations or as mention above when even or behind in the reactionary curve....point shooting skills shine.

August 26, 2007, 11:42 AM	#41
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	Concur with Sweatnbullets. I was taught point-shooting at the academy and besides aimed fire, teach my shooters point-shooting. It's a matter of drill, drill and more drill. Start them off at short range and as they progress, move the target back. Aim fire when you can, point shoot when it's close (and that depends on individual comfort, confidence and skill level). __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 26, 2007, 12:25 PM	#42
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	I have a boatload of empiracle evidence that you can teach people how to shoot effectively significantly faster if you teach them an intuitive, unsighted approach first and then, when they are comfortable and capable of defending themselves in a realistic situation, teaching them more mechanical skills for higher precision... including sighted fire. Without this approach, we would not be able to take our recreational guests and corporate groups through the 360 degree maze with reactive targets after having shot less than 20 rounds in their lives. 10 minute lecture, 10 minutes on the range and one magazine of rounds is enough for most people with no experience to learn "extend-touch-press" and be able to engage reactive threat mannequins with multiple fast shots out to 20'. __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

August 26, 2007, 12:42 PM	#43
Zombie Steve Senior Member Join Date: June 3, 2007 Location: Old Colorado City Posts: 527	A little comic relief: I'm not bashing anyone here - lots of good ideas and some new things to try next time I go out. Regarding the original question, how's this sound - pick a method, start at 3-7 yards (paper targets - you don't want splashback from steel) and move back from there until you're confident you've got enough room between you and a BG to aquire your sites... then try another method.

August 26, 2007, 12:48 PM	#44
Groundhog Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 406	ROFL, love that pic! __________________ Greg Miller "Remember, a valid point never overrules a family tradition." - Me

August 26, 2007, 03:24 PM	#45
Lurper Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2006 Posts: 943	Not to stir up old debates, but my experience with point shooting is that the advocates of ps that I have seen shoot and shot with cannot shoot any faster than I can using the sights. This is not to say that I don't point shoot. At targets within about 5-6 ft, I will point shoot. When I do, it is a bit faster because I don't fully present the gun, however at targets beyond that distance I have not seen a payoff.

August 26, 2007, 04:08 PM	#46
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	One of the classic mistakes in this discussion is to talk only about distance... it is like trying to solve an algebra problem with 2 missing variables.. you never really get an answer. Not to pick on you, Lurper, but in your example is the most recent: you said "any target at 5 or 6 ft"... What about a thumbtack at 6'? What about a hostag taker holding a child in front of their body at 6'? The need for precision is dictated by many factors, including distance, size, etc... This is why anyone who tries to lock themselves into one camp of the other or sets arbitrary distance or size related stipulations on when they will or will not use unsighted fire is never going to "get it"..... __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

August 26, 2007, 06:01 PM	#47
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Since all handgun rounds are weak and rather low in stopping power, and the chance of one's assilant being on drugs, or adrinilin, then the need for persision is ALWAYS there. Skip the 'COM' hit. COM takes up alot of area. Hits have to be good, very good, or there is a good chance the BG won't even feel the hit and pay you back. A hit in the gut, arm, leg, or any periheral hit on the torso just won't cut it. The size of the area you have to hit, skipping the CNS, is more like six inches, what is more the size and shape changes as the angle of the shot changes. Spray-n-pray won't cut it. Not saying point shooting can't get hits, or that it won't get good hits, but point shooting isn't the ONLY way to get fast good hits. __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

August 26, 2007, 07:03 PM	#49
leadbutt Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2002 Location: Tidewater,Virginia Posts: 289	With every thing posted, it seems only a few believe in a one system approach, which is fine if it works for them. But and this is only in my experience, and IMO based on combat and shootings in the line of duty so to speak, no one system covers all angles or needs. I am one who has never been bothered by the aspect of speed, and can say I know a few sight users' only that most definitely shoot faster than I, but I always seem to come out ahead when running scenario's that require shots on humanoid targets. As I posted "PS" isn't the end all to be all its a tool to learn and use when needed. When I was younger and had the eyes of eagles and shot hundreds of rounds a week ,, a shot at 75 yards using "PS" was as easy as pie. but not any more. Shooting to me is Zen/ In the Zone as the younger guys say. __________________ "I am always willing to learn,but not always willing to be taught" Sir Winston Churchill

August 26, 2007, 09:15 PM	#50
JoeBlackSpade Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2007 Posts: 162	Now that the subject has branched out into so many interesting and complicated sub-categories, I'd like to ask a question, and make it even more complicated: Are we getting one-dimensional? There is very little discussion in this thread outside of the realm of the handgun. When we talk about point shooting, why isn't there discussion on the shotgun? By most accounts, the shotgun is the ultimate close quarters point-shooting weapon. It accompanies law enforcement on the streets of America, military on patrols in urban environments, and the American outdoorsman in the game-filled fields in our own back yards. As a means of self defense, there is no other weapon in the world that can deliver a solid burst of 8 or 9 rounds in one shot, and then immediately transition to being used as a close-quarters two-handed blunt-force weapon, capable of smashing an attacker using the butt-stock- or even thrusts using the barrel if needed. Having mentioned it up in the 2nd post, I think that no thread on Point Shooting could be complete without some discussion of employing the shotgun in this capacity. When a weapon is inherently designed to shoot multiple pellets through a smooth bore, firing 2 and 3/4 inch shells as propellant, there can be no mistake as to its capability and application. Quite simply, I believe the shotgun is the perfect point-shooting weapon, capable of projecting knock down power at extremely close range.