Revisiting 1986 shootout - Interesting to see people with GSWs continue to fight

[RBid]

Changing a variable like ammunition or capacity may very well have lead to early effects on the decision making process for all involved. Some shots may never have been taken at all, had early shots had more or less effect, or had capacity changed the possibility of reloads or reload timing. That's not only true if those early hits were terminal. Even non fatal hits early on may have changed the behavior of participants in such a way where they may not have been in position for later shots to have been taken as they were.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Had the FBI had higher Capacity weapons and been able to converge and fire collectively with the proper ammunition, it could have been a different outcome.

Had the 9mm bullet fired by SA Dove gone thru Platt's, heart instead of stopping an inch short, Platt probably would not have gotten to his feet after crawling out of the Monte Carlo, and the outcome would indeed have been different.

I agree as in my first response...

Silver tip rounds failed to penetrate well. The effects of the shootout lead to most of the blame being placed on insufficient power and to the development of the 10mm followed by the .40 S&W.

All along it was ammunition. If I am not mistaken the shotgun had birdshot in it. Bullets removed from the suspects were too shallow and the .38 was proven to be the terminal round.

The use of the .223 provided devastating firepower. The use of silvertip ammunition by the FBI as well as the uncoordinated engagement of the suspects, proved a deadly combination, increasing casualties received by the FBI agents. Change any of those three factors and the outcome would have been different.

After going over the report again it says that the shotgun was loaded with buckshot. No detail as to whether it was single 0 or double 00 was mentioned from the report I read. Still much better than birdshot.

[44 AMP]

All along it was ammunition.

Yep, that's what the official finding was. Personally, I think that was because the agents involved had already paid a very high price for screwing he pooch the way they did.

A lot was made of the "insufficient" penetration of the 9mm Silvertip. Nobody is so callous as to say a better shot would have ended things faster.

The agents did the best they could, with what they had, and what they knew. Unfortunately, some of the things they knew were the wrong things for the situation they were in.

The FBI had access to all the toys, rifles, submachine guns, shotguns, bullet proof vests, etc., but either didn't have them with them, didn't wear them, or couldn't get to them once the shooting started.

This shootout has been studied extensively in the 20 plus years since, and while not wishing to cast aspersion on the individual agents or the honor of the agency, about the only things they did right were show remarkable courage under fire, and finally stopping the killers.

One of the things that always irritates me is the huge volume of concern about "overpenetration" for defensive ammo. People seem to be intensely worried about it, and here is an example of where lack of penetration is blamed as the culprit.

The "faulty" 9mm went through Platt's arm, and wrecked a lung. If I recall correctly, had it kept going it still would not have hit the heart, it would have been just above it. One surgeon I heard stated that had the killer received that wound at the operating room door, it still would have mostly likely been fatal.

There are no magic bullets. not even .40/10mm

[Pezo]

3 of the cops were armed with smith and wesson 459 semi automatics. That handgun has a magazine capacity of 14 rounds each. That's a total of 42 rounds on tap fired off by 3 different set of eyes. Yet! One crazy man armed with a mini 14 with 30 round magazine proceeded to kick butt for too long a time. Capacity? Ammo type? A difference? Maybe if you add in seal team six? I don't know but to say that even a professional can sometimes have a real bad day.

[JohnKSa]

Silver tip rounds failed to penetrate well.

Well, SORTA. Based on Dr. French Anderson's analysis of the autopsy results, the round that everyone calls a failure actually penetrated quite well. It's just that it went through Platt's upper arm at an angle before hitting the side of his chest already expanded. After penetrating about 6" of upper arm (entered on the front of the arm an inch or two above the elbow and exited the inside of the arm an inch or two below the armpit), it still penetrated around 6-7" of chest (ending up about midline inside the chest cavity--superimposed on the right edge of the spine viewed from above). As nearly as I can tell, it penetrated 12-13" which is consistent with the FBI penetration specification. In fact, if one considers that it had to go through skin 3 times and probably through clothing twice in the process it actually performed very well.

It was primarily a combination of bad luck (arm in the way) and bad angle that kept it from getting all the way to the heart.

The Miami firefight lasted 4 minutes, involved more than half a dozen people and about 150 rounds fired. Anyone who tries to boil the success or failure of the fight down to a single factor is most likely more concerned with promoting an agenda than in determining the truth.

[DasGuy]

I'm always amused when performance of the 9mm rounds used that day is brought up as to why things went the way they did. I've read multiple after action reports of cops getting into fights with a bad guy, putting 15-20 rounds into them (most center mass) before getting them to stop. And that's with the magical calibers .40 and .45 with modern JHP ammunition.

Yet you never hear ammunition's "lack of performance" questioned with those rounds.

[Derbel McDillet]

jmr40 wrote:

Don't read too much into that. Note that both were already hit with non-survivable wounds. The last shots just finished the job faster.

To which I replied:

Matix's prior wounds were survivable.

According to this website - http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm - Matix's neck/chest wound "B" would have "ultimately been fatal".

I apologize to jmr40 and everyone else for my error.

Photograph of SA Dove's 9mm pistol showing where it was struck by a .223 bullet during the gunfight - http://www.examiner.com/slideshow/fb...ootout#slide=5

[Derbel McDillet]

After penetrating about 6" of upper arm (entered on the front of the arm an inch or two above the elbow and exited the inside of the arm an inch or two below the armpit), it still penetrated around 6-7" of chest (ending up about midline inside the chest cavity--superimposed on the right edge of the spine viewed from above).

It penetrated about 8" total.

In fact, if one considers that it had to go through skin 3 times...

Skin is only a factor in bullet exit - and that's only when it's "unshored". In this instance the skin had no effect on penetration performance.

Anyone who tries to boil the success or failure of the fight down to a single factor is most likely more concerned with promoting an agenda than in determining the truth.

The truth is, had Dove's 9mm bullet passed through Platt's heart (about 12-13" penetration) he would have been rapidly incapacitated (the heart would have been unable to pump blood as efficiently, if at all) and the fight would have ended much sooner - long before Platt shot and killed SA Grogan and SA Dove.

I've read multiple after action reports of cops getting into fights with a bad guy, putting 15-20 rounds into them (most center mass) before getting them to stop.

A bullet must damage a vital structure to be effective. What it hits and how much damage it produces (wound severity) are the important factors. 15-20 rounds that don't damage anything vital, or don't produce much damage if a vital is hit, aren't going to compel a determined bad guy to stop.

[Pezo]

I think in regards to weapons, capacity and tactics one could look at the north Hollywood shooting. Again, we have just two men who managed to hold off almost the entire police department for longer than anyone would expect. Albeit they had body armor and more rounds on tap than the Miami bad guys but still, two determined men. Now the findings are the police need ar15's. God forbid there will be something that will deem that inferior! I think one good shooter with a scoped bolt gun on the squad could have ended the Hollywood perps well and early. Anyways not trying to change the topic. It just seems the answer is always bigger firepower or perceived bigger fire power anyways. Pretty soon maybe seal team six will get the call. Not to long ago I had some friends get pulled over in Detroit for a traffic violation in the evening hours. The patrol cop exited with an ar15 in hand according to them. Not a felony stop or anything. Just a ticket.

[Jim243]

Not to long ago I had some friends get pulled over in Detroit for a traffic violation in the evening hours. The patrol cop exited with an ar15 in hand according to them

For that place and time, he was probably under gunned. I would have wanted a SCAR-17 (LOL).

Jim

[kgpcr]

I personally think a bigger round than the 9mm MAY have made a difference. Maybe not. A .38 takes way to long to reload. You are out of the fight when you are reloading. For sure being able to keep fire on the perps would have been desired. its hard to shoot back when you are getting hit. Had the bullet hit the heart I think in short order he would have been down for good. Not instantly but quickly. A bigger hole always lets out more blood and when the bad guy is shooting back every drop counts.

[Pezo]

A .38 with speed loaders or strips even ( if practiced )doesn't take all that much longer in my opinion to re load. I shoot a snub .38 every time I go to the range. It does require more frequent reloading to keep in action however which is an issue in an extended gun fight. It also requires more motor skill.

[JohnKSa]

Please note that I have recalculated the arm penetration figure based on the scale in Plate II-A. My earlier estimate of 6" is incorrect. The actual figure is 5".

It penetrated about 8" total.

I've heard this before, but the pictures (Plates II-A and II-B) on page 46 of Dr. Anderson's book showing the penetration through Platt's arm, and the X-Ray plate (Figure II.4 on page 40) showing the final resting point of the bullet, are not not consistent with such a claim.

The only way the bullet could have penetrated only 8" would be if Platt were an abnormally small person--he wasn't--he was 5'10" and 210.

There's clearly at least 5" of penetration in the upper arm alone.

<<<I'm not going to embed the picture of Platt's arm since it's a little gory. Click here to see it.>>>
Cropped portion of Plate II-A from p46 of Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D., Published by Paladin Press, 1996, 2006

The X-Ray demonstrates that the bullet penetrated to within an inch of midline after entering the right chest under the arm--at least 6" of penetration in the torso for a man Platt's size.

Cropped portion of Figure II-4 from p40 of Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D., Published by Paladin Press, 1996, 2006

The only thing that makes sense is that the oft-quoted 8" figure you're referring to relates exclusively to penetration after the bullet entered the torso and disregards penetration through the arm. Given the obvious penetration depth through the arm, the only way the 8" figure could be correct would be if the bullet only penetrated 3" into the chest and that is obviously nonsensical given the X-Ray evidence.

Skin is only a factor in bullet exit - and that's only when it's "unshored".

Even if we accept that as fact, there would still be an unshored exit to account for. Figure II-2 on page 38 and II-3 on page 39 show Platt's position at the time the bullet struck him and there is clearly space between the exit wound on the upper arm and the entrance wound on the chest.

[Derbel McDillet]

I've seen the x-ray and the autopsy photos and have personally spoken with Dr. Anderson and Dr. Fackler. Doc Fackler is very familiar with this particular wound, having spoken with the autopsy doctor, Jay Barnhart. According to everybody I've spoken to the bullet penetrated about 8" total. (According to Dr. Fackler it was about the same as .38 Special 110gr +P JHP).

In regard to the illustrations, they're depictions of what may have happened. I have two different copies of "Forensic Analysis". The first is from the 3rd printing and is dated 1997. (I received it as a handout during a presentation I attended.). The second is the one from Paladin Press, copyright 1996, 2006. The illustration of the bullet's path through Platt's upper arm (Figure II-3) is different in the 3rd printing than the bullet path depicted in in the Paladin Press version. It appears to have been changed as a result of this information:

According to Dr. Anderson, the bullet passed under the bone, through the deltoid, triceps and teres major muscles, and severed the brachial arteries and veins. The bullet exited the inner side of his upper arm near the armpit, penetrated his chest between the fifth and sixth ribs, and passed almost completely through the right lung before stopping. The bullet came to a rest about an inch short of penetrating the wall of the heart.

(However, the accompanying autopsy report states that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle, and the autopsy photograph seems to support the medical examiner’s observation. The autopsy photograph shows an entry wound of the upper right arm, just above the inside bend of the elbow, in the location where the biceps muscle begins to show definition. The photograph suggests that the bullet passed through the biceps muscle of the upper arm in front of the bone. We discussed our observation with Dr. Anderson and he agreed with us. He stated that he would correct this error in a future revision to his report.)

From -- http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

(Edited to add: The Gun Zone has published the original (uncorrected) illustration - http://www.thegunzone.com/platt-shot.html . The lower illustration is different than the one in the Paladin Press book.)

Figure II-2, which depicts Platt crawling out the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, shows the bullet striking his upper arm in the area of the triceps muscle, and is not accurate when one compares it to the autopsy photo (Plate II-A) and it apparently was not updated when Figure II-3 was changed.

Plate II-B (autopsy photo of Platt's armpit) clearly shows how high up in the arm pit area the bullet was when it exited the arm and entered the chest.

If you press your upper arm against your chest then you'll see that what appears to be 6" of penetration through the arm (as it seems in autopsy photo Plate II-A) becomes about 3" inches. In fact if you hold the 8 1/2" edge of a sheet of paper in the same orientation of the wound path, with your upper arm pressing against your chest, you'll see how the path will end just short of mid-center of your chest. With the upper arm pressing against the chest, the skin is shored.

[leadcounsel]

I personally think a bigger round than the 9mm MAY have made a difference. Maybe not. A .38 takes way to long to reload. You are out of the fight when you are reloading. For sure being able to keep fire on the perps would have been desired. its hard to shoot back when you are getting hit.

Well, we do know that several of the agents were out of the fight early reloading and were injured while doing so. The capacity of their guns? 6 shots for the revolvers, and presumably less than 6 for the shotgun.

Had they been shooting (offense) the bad guys may have been ducking and unable to fire. Instead they were reloading (defense) and shot and out of the fight.

Fights are often won on shots fired, just like hockey games are often won on shots on goal.

[fastbolt]

I'd been in LE just a few years at the time of the '86 FBI incident.

Yes, it caused quite a review of tactics and equipment (including guns & ammo). As has already been mentioned, if one of the roving units armed with SMG's had been involved, it might have turned out quite differently.

If it had turned out differently, it might not have become one of those watershed moments in LE. We might not have seen the civilian introduction of the 147gr 9mm JHP, the LE use of 10mm or the development of the .40 S&W (which would also mean no use of the .40 S&W case to develop the .357SIG).

The CHP/Newhall incident in '70 and the North Hollywood Bank Robbery in '97 were also watershed moments in LE when it came to training, tactics, officer safety and re-evaluating equipment.

Unfortunately, there's no shortage of such tragic incidents. Look at the '09 murder of 4 Oakland PD officers by a convicted felon wanted on a no-bail warrant for a parole violation, and the murders of the 4 Lakewood PD officers in the same year.

[JohnKSa]

Please note that I have adjusted the arm penetration estimate of 6" in my previous post to a calculated figure of 5" based on the scale provided in II-A. This is a conservative figure since there is some foreshortening (perspective distortion) in the photograph which would result in making a precise measurement underestimate the penetration slightly.

In regard to the illustrations, they're depictions of what may have happened.
...
The illustration of the bullet's path through Platt's upper arm (Figure II-3) is different in the 3rd printing than the bullet path depicted in in the Paladin Press version. It appears to have been changed as a result of this information:

I'm not talking about illustrations, I'm referring to an autopsy photograph (which I provided as a clickable link) with an included scale and showing an inserted probe.

Unless there's proof the photo is faked or doctored there's no way to explain how it would be different in different printings.

Figure II-2, which depicts Platt crawling out the passenger window of the Monte Carlo, shows the bullet striking his upper arm in the area of the triceps muscle, and is not accurate when one compares it to the autopsy photo...

That is correct. However, correcting the error so that the wound matches the autopsy photo doesn't substantially change the position of the arm--other than the illustration shows the armed turned inwards slightly more than it actually was. If anything, the error in the figure implies less penetration that the actual photograph shows.

If you press your upper arm against your chest then you'll see that what appears to be 6" of penetration through the arm (as it seems in autopsy photo Plate II-A) becomes about 3" inches.

The problem is that if the arm were pressed against the chest there would be no way the bullet could have taken the path that it did.

The autopsy photograph II-A (not an illustration--an actual photograph) demonstrates that the bullet entered the front of the arm just above (and inside) the bend of the elbow and exited about an inch or two below the armpit. For the bullet to have taken that path and continued into the chest, penetrating horizontally to the midline, the arm would have to be outstretched, at an angle only slightly lower than horizontal.

There are two figures (II-2, and II-3) (illustrations) in Anderson's book showing Platt's position when this bullet hit him and both of them show his right arm outstretched, just as I have described it. With good reason--that's the only position that is consistent with the bullet's established trajectory.

If his arm had been pressed against his chest, the bullet would have had to exit the arm travelling nearly parallel to the arm and then make a nearly 90 degree turn before entering the chest and penetrating at nearly right angles to the arm until it reached the body midline as shown in the autopsy X-Ray and autopsy diagrams. Clearly that doesn't make sense.

That explanation should suffice, but it's really not necessary because Plate II-B (photograph) eliminates any questions. For the wound channels to line up as shown by the inserted probe, the arm must be outstretched, leaving a gap of approximately 2.5" between the arm exit wound and the chest entry wound and eliminating any possibility that the arm was pressed against the chest when the shot struck Platt.

Plate II-B (autopsy photo of Platt's armpit) clearly shows how high up in the arm pit area the bullet was when it exited the arm and entered the chest.

What II-B (autopsy photograph with an inserted probe and provided scale) clearly shows is that with the probe inserted through the arm wound and into the chest wound (lining them up as they would have been at the time the wound was administered) that there has to be a gap between the arm exit wound and the chest entry wound of about 2.5" when the arm is positioned properly to line up the two wound paths.

<<<I'm not going to embed the picture since it's a little gory. Click here to see it.>>>
Cropped and re-annotated portion of Plate 11-B from p46 of Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by W. French Anderson, M.D., Published by Paladin Press, 1996, 2006

There is no room for debate because there is no perspective distortion in the photograph and the provided scale in the photo is conveniently positioned so that it is aligned with the probe to facilitate determining the actual scale.

This clearly demonstrates that the arm exit wound was an unshored exit and that the arm could not have been pressed against the chest when the bullet hit Platt.

The photographs and X-Ray tell the story and leave no room for debate. Short of proving that the photos and X-Ray in Anderson's book are doctored/faked or that Platt's chest was remarkably small for a man his height and weight, it is going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to demonstrate that an 8" total penetration figure could possibly be accurate. For what it's worth, there is no indication in the autopsy notes that Platt's chest was unusually small, nor do the crime scene photographs of Platt (see Plate IV-F on p 84 of Anderson's book) suggest such a thing.

The arm penetration is easily determined to be 5" from autopsy photograph II-A. That means that if 8" is actually the total penetration, it must have taken only 3" of penetration to penetrate from under Platt's right armpit to about an inch short of midline on his chest. That could only be realistic if Platt's chest measured 8" or less from side to side at his armpits--half of what would be normal for someone his size.

The 8" penetration figure makes sense if it ONLY takes the chest penetration into account, but not if it is supposed to be a total penetration figure. From what I can find on the web, a man who is about 5'9" tall (an inch shorter than Platt) would be expected to have a chest width of about 16". Based on the autopsy X-Ray, the bullet penetrated half of Platt's chest less about an inch. That would be about 7" of penetration which is close enough to the 8" figure you are quoting to be reasonable.

[Double Naught Spy]

Constantine said...

If they had modern JHP technology, it would have been a whole different ball game

markj replied...

With the body armour they were wearing?

Platt and Matix were not wearing body armor at all, markj.

DasGuy said...

I'm always amused when performance of the 9mm rounds used that day is brought up as to why things went the way they did. I've read multiple after action reports of cops getting into fights with a bad guy, putting 15-20 rounds into them (most center mass) before getting them to stop. And that's with the magical calibers .40 and .45 with modern JHP ammunition.

Yet you never hear ammunition's "lack of performance" questioned with those rounds.

Sure you do! This thread is a classic discussion of the "failure" of the .40 and .223...which didn't fail so much as "shot placement" failed.

What people in that analysis and in the Miami shootout have often forgotten when claiming lack of performance often forget that "shot placement" is nothing without penetration and trajectory. You must have all three. The bullet must enter the body at a given location with the correct trajectory such that if it has the ability to penetrate, that it will penetrate to the necessary vitals.

Many things can sidetrack proper trajectory and penetration, such as deflection. Look, people have been shot in the head with centerfire rifle calibers that didn't penetrate. It happens. That is a reality of terminal ballistics.

Peppering people repeatedly with non-fatal and non-immediately fatal wounds doesn't do a whole lot to shut them down biologically until you either accumulate so many wounds that the BP drops off or the non-immediately fatal wounds manage to finally become fatal.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Seems the lesson learned would be to bring a Mini-14 to a gun fight?

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Peppering people repeatedly with non-fatal and non-immediately fatal wounds doesn't do a whole lot to shut them down biologically until you either accumulate so many wounds that the BP drops off or the non-immediately fatal wounds manage to finally become fatal.

Exactly, can say it many ways and it still makes sense.

Brings up a point to make when inquiring as to why center mass is considered the go to point without alternatives built into practice. Some changes need to be made, though they have little to do with this thread from a history standpoint. So I will bow out gracefully and save that for a better day.

Sheriff made a statement to me one day: "The bad guys have the lucky bullets, the good guys have to make their own luck and those who don't believe in luck usually catch unlucky bullets."

[Sevens]

I was 15 years old when this happened and not cognizant of the news of the day. I first learned of it by an extensive (at the time) magazine article written by Massad Ayoob maybe a year or two after it happened.

I have since seen it mentioned, referred to, and like in this thread - dissected a number of times in gun forums.

It is an interesting and historic event.

Seems the lesson learned would be

...this brings me to my point.

Here in gun forums, a tremendous "lesson" of this event rarely seems to bubble to the surface. Perhaps some would view it as a side-bar, but for most regular "gun guys" like all of us, a very big lesson that is rarely mentioned and usually missed is the where and how the bad guys got some of the weapons they used in this event, including the Mini-14.

Folks like ourselves should take THAT away from this event.

[Double Naught Spy]

Once the shooting starts, it does not matter where and how the bad guys got their guns.

[Sevens]

I say it does matter, especially to us.

They got some of those guns (the Mini-14 specifically) by murdering a recreational shooter who was out shooting somewhere in a secluded area enjoying himself.

[leadcounsel]

but for most regular "gun guys" like all of us, a very big lesson that is rarely mentioned and usually missed is the where and how the bad guys got some of the weapons they used in this event, including the Mini-14.

I'd say that is about the least relevant of factors. And thinking that it is important would lead someone to draw very dangerous anti-gun 'Brady Bunch' conclusions... namely registration, confiscation, mandatory gun locks, keeping guns under lock and key at gun clubs, and ultimately total bans.

Bad guys will always get guns, drugs, etc. It's just a fact of life. These guys committed crimes to get them, and for instance, the criminals in the LA bank robbery used illegal guns - or modified them to fire full auto illegally.

As said above, once the shooting starts, the where and why is irrelevant. It's just you, them, training, equipment, and dumb luck.

[Sevens]

Sheeesh, the view of the forest seems to be blocked by all these trees.

I'm merely trying to say that gun folks spend a lot of time dissecting this (which is fine) but a part of it that we can learn from is rarely mentioned: be safe, be aware, as always, but especially when you are out shooting somewhere. Perhaps more so when you think or believe you are out in the boonies by your lonesome.

These two murdered a recreational shooter (who was out shooting) to get some of these guns.

This is the kind of thing that could happen to any one of us.
Likely?! No.
Of course, it's unlikely that we'll be in the position to compare 9mm/.38/12ga/.223 wounds in a four-minute violent gun battle in a city landscape on a sunny afternoon also.