Single Stage And Progressive, Or Just Progressive?

sholling · July 4, 2008, 12:16 PM

I'm thinking of getting back into reloading. It's really the only way that I can practice as much as I'd like. My only experience with reloading was with an old Lee Pro 1000 years ago and I remember wasn't happy with that press at all - although I still have it and the 45acp dies. It did an awful job with primers.

What I'm looking to do is three things.

Precision load .223 for 200+ yard target practice. That's the longest range in my area. Enough that I can afford to go through 100 to at most 150 rounds per week. Right now 223 is the only one high on my priority list.
Later load enough 30-06, 308, and 300WM so that I can stay in practice. Say 50-100rds of 30-06 and 300wm and 200rds of 308 per month.
Down the road load 300-500rds per month of a mix of 45acp and 9mm, and maybe some 45LC.

What I'm thinking, and wondering if I'm off course, is that I should pick up a single stage press for the 223 and then later add dies for the low volume 30 cal. And then wait and buy a Dillon RL-650 for the pistol calibers and .308 after I've built up more brass. I'd rather invest the extra $100 in a 650 over the RL-550.

Am I on the right track or should I save for six more months and save and just run everything through a Dillon progressive? Should I just give the Lee Progressive another chance? Space is also an issue. I don't have a ton of bench space.

snuffy · July 4, 2008, 01:11 PM

I voted #2, but NOT the lee chalanger kit. If you elect to go that route, and want a lee press, get the lee classic cast single stage press. it's made of cast iron and built like a tank. Also the accessories that come with that chalanger kit are basic at best. That scale, while it does work, is downright hard to read, and doesn't have much capacity.

But the answer may lie in another option not included in your poll. The lee classic turret press. For the volume you need, it would be a perfect fit. You could buy the lee turret for what a single caliber conversion kit would cost for the dillon 650. It is also fairly fast in the auto index mode with the optional safety prime primer feed and the pro auto disc powder measure. Around 200 rounds an hour!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=814175

I own a XL 650 with 7 caliber conversion kits. But I want to load fast when I have time. I'd rather be shooting than reloading.

I also have the lee classic turret. For working up loads, it's easier than with the dillon. Also for low volume loading that I can't see spending the $ for a conversion kit for the 650,(7.62X25, 45/70 for a single shot).

AKGunner · July 4, 2008, 01:31 PM

I picked other because i bought the 650 first and then bought a redding T7. I load high volume calibers at least 500 at a time on the progressive. (45acp, 9mm, 38 sp) I use the T7 for my 500 Mag and rifle calibers.

73-Captain · July 4, 2008, 02:38 PM

"A new and painfully expensive expensive Dillon RL-650 only?"

Dillon does NOT make a RL-650, they make a XL-650.

The Dillon is neither that expensive or "expensive expensive".

Do a cost comparison, WITH a casefeeder and case feed plate for one cartridge, the XL-650 is just $9 more than a Hornady LnL set up the same way.

Does your time have ANY value at all? If so you can't beat a progressive.

Is your hobby shooting or reloading? I like to reload but I don't do it as a hobby, I do it so I can do more of my real hobby, shooting!

"Painfully"?

I'd call painful paying $46.95 for a box of .41 Magnums at Bass Pro (Cabela's was NOT much cheaper). Buy 500 pieces of .41 Magnum brass and load it one time and you are close to paying off a Dillon XL-650.

Painful is also spending all day on a single stage to load less than I can load in an hour on the XL-650 )and spend the rest of the weekend shooting what I reloaded in that hour).

C.

sholling · July 4, 2008, 02:53 PM

Sorry I'm the king of typos. To answer the question, of course my time has value - but I'm retired and do have more time than money. One of my concerns with going straight into a progressive machine is accuracy. Since my primary goal is rolling my own match grade 223s I wasn't sure (actually I have no clue) if the Dillon could pull that off. That's why I asked if I should have both.

snuffy · July 4, 2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

One of my concerns with going straight into a progressive machine is accuracy. Since my primary goal is rolling my own match grade 223s I wasn't sure (actually I have no clue) if the Dillon could pull that off. That's why I asked if I should have both.

Yes you can. Or at least I can and do. My long range target load is the nosler 69 grain match HPBT. Using varget powder. I use a Hornady case activated powder measure, so I can't say the stock dillon measure will make accurate ammo. I get ¾ to 7/8 inch groups, the best my stock bushmaster can do.

sholling · July 4, 2008, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Yes you can. Or at least I can and do. My long range target load is the nosler 69 grain match HPBT. Using varget powder. I use a Hornady case activated powder measure, so I can't say the stock dillon measure will make accurate ammo. I get ¾ to 7/8 inch groups, the best my stock bushmaster can do.

That's very good news. Thanks to all! I'm going to keep the poll open for two weeks while I chew on this a bit. I may just save up and get myself a Dillon for Christmas.

WESHOOT2 · July 6, 2008, 10:36 AM

Buy an RCBS hand-priming tool and use your LEE like a single-stage (while saving for the superb XL650. And parts kit).

Keep the LEE for single-stage work, priming cases with the RCBS tool. Or sell said press to person (originally typed fool, but changed it to 'person', due to kinder gentler me) who wants it, defraying good-press cost.

TEDDY · July 6, 2008, 04:02 PM

I have a RCBS green machine and load 38 spec.$600 back when.priming always was a problem same as Lee 1000 in 45 acp.I decap, clean, and prime with lee hand primer.the lee turret will make good ammo,as will all the other brands.but you cant beat the price of lee.I dont have a redding or dillon but all the rest.Its a matter of finance my shop as 30 molds 15 press and 50,000 rds of brass.all because I am a pack rat,I pick up anything if the price is right and since I am 84 and started in 1939,I have a lot.

Threefeathers · July 6, 2008, 04:36 PM

A Lyman T Mag Turret for rifle, yu can have 2 calibers on each head. Dust off the old Lee untill you are ready for an RCBS Pro 2000 progressive.

DEDON45 · July 7, 2008, 04:36 PM

I said other... I bought a Hornady LnL AP first, then bought a single stage (Hornady as well, those free bullet offers defray the cost) when decided to start loading small batches of magnum rifle cartridges. the single stage does come in handy for some grunt work, too.

ForneyRider · July 7, 2008, 05:41 PM

Lee Anniversary kit with single stage comes with hand prime. It solves the issue of the Pro 1000 primer issues. I think it is 80-100$. I run these 2 on my bench. Can handle anything short of 50BMG.

If I were to do it all over again, and had more dough, RCBS Rock crusher and a Lee 5 stage.

I run .22-250 on the Pro 1000. I got the double disk kit.

BigJakeJ1s · July 8, 2008, 09:00 PM

I would suggest starting out with a good single stage press, and adding a progressive later, but neither your choice for single stage nor progressive press would be mine.

A good single stage press will always come in handy. There are two features that should be considered for convenience in a single stage press: through-the-ram spent primer handling, and quick change die capability (either native or via the LNL adapter). The Lee Classic Cast (iron) press is the least expensive press with both of these features, and the Forster Co-Ax is IMHO, the best. In between are the Redding Big Boss II and UltraMag.

For a very good comparison between the Dillon XL650, the Hornady LNL AP, and the Lee Loadmaster progressive presses, look here:

http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillon...Comparison.pdf

If you start with an RL550 or LNL AP, single stage processing is still pretty easy. On the RL550b, just don't advance the shell plate. For the LNL AP, just remove all the dies for the stations you don't want to use. You can even use the case feeder with this method to speed things up a little. You could do the same thing with the XL650, but removing individual dies is not as quick or easy, and you've already heard from one user who replaced their Dillon PM with the Hornady PM/linkage. Either of these would be the only way I would recommend starting out with a progressive, particularly for rifle cartridges. Given they are about the same price, but the LNL AP has more capacity and features, it gets my vote.

Andy

aerod1 · July 9, 2008, 09:00 AM

I voted for single stage for rifles and dust off the old Lee Progressive for pistol......but if you get a "Lee Classic Cast Turret", you can use it as a single stage as well by simlpy removing the indexing rod.
I don't do that because I started out on a "Lee Reloader" single stage C press which retails for around $30,00, then I got a "Lee Classic Cast Turret". Both presses work great for me.

putteral · July 9, 2008, 05:49 PM

I also have the Lee anniversary kit. I load about 200 round per week. Love it.
I am also retired so I do have time to play.

Storage_man · July 10, 2008, 05:20 PM

I had to chime in. I to am retired and have plenty of time, but I have owned a Dillon 550 since 1988. Its the greatest machine in the world. My son and I have loaded 1,000's of rounds on that machine. In fact Dillon has performed 2 complete rebuilds and its still trucking. Over the years we started acquiring several class III machine guns. Since these weapons go through a bunch of rounds, 9mm, .45, .223, 30-06, last fall I purchased a XL650 for its speed. Now don't get me wrong, the 550 is fast but I needed something faster.

Now in your poll, I voted other because if I was you I would get a Dillon 550. The 550 is much easier to use and learn. - you can make it go back-wards if you need to fix a problem. The 650 is a much more complex machine, takes longer to change calibers and is harder to recover from a screw up (one of my senior moments). You stated that the price difference is so little between the 550 and 650 that it would be better the buy the 650. Well yes - Initial price is within $100. But Caliber Conversion Kits are $51 / 550 vs $72 / 650. Tool heads are $19 / 550 vs $23 / 650.

The major difference other than price between the 550 and the 650 is that the 550 doesn't support case fed rifle cartridges. Thats it. Just my 2 cents worth.

aerod1 · July 10, 2008, 05:48 PM

Well there are three posts in a row from people who are retired (me included). Is the reloading forum of TFL becoming an "old farts" hang out?

BigJimP · July 10, 2008, 06:12 PM

Go with the Dillon 650 - its very accurate - and its a great machine.

"painfully expensive ..." No, sometimes you get what you pay for - and this is one of those times in my opinion.

G10mm · July 12, 2008, 09:05 PM

I have dillon 650's and love them there great .
but like one poater said if you going to load a lot of crimped primered brass you might look at 1050 because of the crimp

sidaemon · July 13, 2008, 12:48 AM

Personally I own a Dillion 550. I wouldn't change it for the world. I hand feed everything (mostly cause I'm still pretty new, and REALLY paranoid). When I bought that particular machine I did so because of the lifetime no B.S. warrantee.

I have a friend that swears by it. He says that he's replaced every part on his machine twice and Dillion has never given him a problem. I figure that at that rate, over the course of the machine, the Dillion more than pays for itself in just savings on wear and tear.

Mine is accurate, consistantly, and I take powder, and measurements from every fourth shell, so I know it's spot on. I've heard good and bad about the 650, but I know that the 550 is a beautiful piece of work.

View Poll Results: Should I be looking at reloading using...
A new and painfully expensive expensive Dillon RL-650 only?	9	23.08%
A new single stage now, and a Dillon RL-650 later?	12	30.77%
A new single stage for rifles and dust off my old Lee for pistol calibers	6	15.38%
Use the Lee for Pistol calibers and 223, and add the singe stage later	2	5.13%
Other	10	25.64%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

July 4, 2008, 12:16 PM	#1
sholling Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 1999 Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California Posts: 4,261	Single Stage And Progressive, Or Just Progressive? I'm thinking of getting back into reloading. It's really the only way that I can practice as much as I'd like. My only experience with reloading was with an old Lee Pro 1000 years ago and I remember wasn't happy with that press at all - although I still have it and the 45acp dies. It did an awful job with primers. What I'm looking to do is three things. Precision load .223 for 200+ yard target practice. That's the longest range in my area. Enough that I can afford to go through 100 to at most 150 rounds per week. Right now 223 is the only one high on my priority list. Later load enough 30-06, 308, and 300WM so that I can stay in practice. Say 50-100rds of 30-06 and 300wm and 200rds of 308 per month. Down the road load 300-500rds per month of a mix of 45acp and 9mm, and maybe some 45LC. What I'm thinking, and wondering if I'm off course, is that I should pick up a single stage press for the 223 and then later add dies for the low volume 30 cal. And then wait and buy a Dillon RL-650 for the pistol calibers and .308 after I've built up more brass. I'd rather invest the extra $100 in a 650 over the RL-550. Am I on the right track or should I save for six more months and save and just run everything through a Dillon progressive? Should I just give the Lee Progressive another chance? Space is also an issue. I don't have a ton of bench space. __________________ Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society.

July 4, 2008, 02:38 PM	#4
73-Captain Junior member Join Date: December 14, 2007 Posts: 199	I had to pick other although my first choice is a Dillon XL-650. "A new and painfully expensive expensive Dillon RL-650 only?" Dillon does NOT make a RL-650, they make a XL-650. The Dillon is neither that expensive or "expensive expensive". Do a cost comparison, WITH a casefeeder and case feed plate for one cartridge, the XL-650 is just $9 more than a Hornady LnL set up the same way. Does your time have ANY value at all? If so you can't beat a progressive. Is your hobby shooting or reloading? I like to reload but I don't do it as a hobby, I do it so I can do more of my real hobby, shooting! "Painfully"? I'd call painful paying $46.95 for a box of .41 Magnums at Bass Pro (Cabela's was NOT much cheaper). Buy 500 pieces of .41 Magnum brass and load it one time and you are close to paying off a Dillon XL-650. Painful is also spending all day on a single stage to load less than I can load in an hour on the XL-650 )and spend the rest of the weekend shooting what I reloaded in that hour). C.

July 4, 2008, 02:53 PM	#5
sholling Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 1999 Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California Posts: 4,261	Sorry I'm the king of typos. To answer the question, of course my time has value - but I'm retired and do have more time than money. One of my concerns with going straight into a progressive machine is accuracy. Since my primary goal is rolling my own match grade 223s I wasn't sure (actually I have no clue) if the Dillon could pull that off. That's why I asked if I should have both. __________________ Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society.

July 6, 2008, 10:36 AM	#8
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	thoughts Buy an RCBS hand-priming tool and use your LEE like a single-stage (while saving for the superb XL650. And parts kit). Keep the LEE for single-stage work, priming cases with the RCBS tool. Or sell said press to person (originally typed fool, but changed it to 'person', due to kinder gentler me) who wants it, defraying good-press cost. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

July 4, 2008, 01:11 PM	#2
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	I voted #2, but NOT the lee chalanger kit. If you elect to go that route, and want a lee press, get the lee classic cast single stage press. it's made of cast iron and built like a tank. Also the accessories that come with that chalanger kit are basic at best. That scale, while it does work, is downright hard to read, and doesn't have much capacity. But the answer may lie in another option not included in your poll. The lee classic turret press. For the volume you need, it would be a perfect fit. You could buy the lee turret for what a single caliber conversion kit would cost for the dillon 650. It is also fairly fast in the auto index mode with the optional safety prime primer feed and the pro auto disc powder measure. Around 200 rounds an hour! http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=814175 I own a XL 650 with 7 caliber conversion kits. But I want to load fast when I have time. I'd rather be shooting than reloading. I also have the lee classic turret. For working up loads, it's easier than with the dillon. Also for low volume loading that I can't see spending the $ for a conversion kit for the 650,(7.62X25, 45/70 for a single shot). __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

July 4, 2008, 01:31 PM	#3
AKGunner Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2006 Location: Alaska Posts: 152	I picked other because i bought the 650 first and then bought a redding T7. I load high volume calibers at least 500 at a time on the progressive. (45acp, 9mm, 38 sp) I use the T7 for my 500 Mag and rifle calibers.

July 6, 2008, 04:02 PM	#9
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	loading I have a RCBS green machine and load 38 spec.$600 back when.priming always was a problem same as Lee 1000 in 45 acp.I decap, clean, and prime with lee hand primer.the lee turret will make good ammo,as will all the other brands.but you cant beat the price of lee.I dont have a redding or dillon but all the rest.Its a matter of finance my shop as 30 molds 15 press and 50,000 rds of brass.all because I am a pack rat,I pick up anything if the price is right and since I am 84 and started in 1939,I have a lot.

July 6, 2008, 04:36 PM	#10
Threefeathers Junior member Join Date: June 7, 2004 Location: AZ Posts: 392	A Lyman T Mag Turret for rifle, yu can have 2 calibers on each head. Dust off the old Lee untill you are ready for an RCBS Pro 2000 progressive.

July 7, 2008, 04:36 PM	#11
DEDON45 Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 278	I said other... I bought a Hornady LnL AP first, then bought a single stage (Hornady as well, those free bullet offers defray the cost) when decided to start loading small batches of magnum rifle cartridges. the single stage does come in handy for some grunt work, too.

July 7, 2008, 05:41 PM	#12
ForneyRider Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2007 Location: Forney, TX Posts: 725	Lee Anniversary kit with single stage comes with hand prime. It solves the issue of the Pro 1000 primer issues. I think it is 80-100$. I run these 2 on my bench. Can handle anything short of 50BMG. If I were to do it all over again, and had more dough, RCBS Rock crusher and a Lee 5 stage. I run .22-250 on the Pro 1000. I got the double disk kit. __________________ When all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done.

July 8, 2008, 09:00 PM	#13
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	I would suggest starting out with a good single stage press, and adding a progressive later, but neither your choice for single stage nor progressive press would be mine. A good single stage press will always come in handy. There are two features that should be considered for convenience in a single stage press: through-the-ram spent primer handling, and quick change die capability (either native or via the LNL adapter). The Lee Classic Cast (iron) press is the least expensive press with both of these features, and the Forster Co-Ax is IMHO, the best. In between are the Redding Big Boss II and UltraMag. For a very good comparison between the Dillon XL650, the Hornady LNL AP, and the Lee Loadmaster progressive presses, look here: http://www.comrace.ca/cmfiles/dillon...Comparison.pdf If you start with an RL550 or LNL AP, single stage processing is still pretty easy. On the RL550b, just don't advance the shell plate. For the LNL AP, just remove all the dies for the stations you don't want to use. You can even use the case feeder with this method to speed things up a little. You could do the same thing with the XL650, but removing individual dies is not as quick or easy, and you've already heard from one user who replaced their Dillon PM with the Hornady PM/linkage. Either of these would be the only way I would recommend starting out with a progressive, particularly for rifle cartridges. Given they are about the same price, but the LNL AP has more capacity and features, it gets my vote. Andy

July 9, 2008, 09:00 AM	#14
aerod1 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Garland Texas U.S.A. Posts: 734	I voted for single stage for rifles and dust off the old Lee Progressive for pistol......but if you get a "Lee Classic Cast Turret", you can use it as a single stage as well by simlpy removing the indexing rod. I don't do that because I started out on a "Lee Reloader" single stage C press which retails for around $30,00, then I got a "Lee Classic Cast Turret". Both presses work great for me. __________________ NRA Life Member, TSRA Life Member, C&R 03 FFL, Texas LTC Recreational Reloader U.S. Navy Veteran (USS Midway V-1 Division) Last edited by aerod1; July 9, 2008 at 09:02 AM. Reason: Because my typing abilities are somewhat less than a first grader

July 9, 2008, 05:49 PM	#15
putteral Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2008 Location: Homosassa,Florida Posts: 206	I also have the Lee anniversary kit. I load about 200 round per week. Love it. I am also retired so I do have time to play.

July 10, 2008, 05:20 PM	#16
Storage_man Member Join Date: June 5, 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 20	I had to chime in. I to am retired and have plenty of time, but I have owned a Dillon 550 since 1988. Its the greatest machine in the world. My son and I have loaded 1,000's of rounds on that machine. In fact Dillon has performed 2 complete rebuilds and its still trucking. Over the years we started acquiring several class III machine guns. Since these weapons go through a bunch of rounds, 9mm, .45, .223, 30-06, last fall I purchased a XL650 for its speed. Now don't get me wrong, the 550 is fast but I needed something faster. Now in your poll, I voted other because if I was you I would get a Dillon 550. The 550 is much easier to use and learn. - you can make it go back-wards if you need to fix a problem. The 650 is a much more complex machine, takes longer to change calibers and is harder to recover from a screw up (one of my senior moments). You stated that the price difference is so little between the 550 and 650 that it would be better the buy the 650. Well yes - Initial price is within $100. But Caliber Conversion Kits are $51 / 550 vs $72 / 650. Tool heads are $19 / 550 vs $23 / 650. The major difference other than price between the 550 and the 650 is that the 550 doesn't support case fed rifle cartridges. Thats it. Just my 2 cents worth. __________________ Storage_man BeltFeds and F/A Weapons

July 10, 2008, 05:48 PM	#17
aerod1 Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Garland Texas U.S.A. Posts: 734	Well there are three posts in a row from people who are retired (me included). Is the reloading forum of TFL becoming an "old farts" hang out? __________________ NRA Life Member, TSRA Life Member, C&R 03 FFL, Texas LTC Recreational Reloader U.S. Navy Veteran (USS Midway V-1 Division)

July 10, 2008, 06:12 PM	#18
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Go with the Dillon 650 - its very accurate - and its a great machine. "painfully expensive ..." No, sometimes you get what you pay for - and this is one of those times in my opinion.

July 12, 2008, 09:05 PM	#19
G10mm Junior Member Join Date: July 12, 2008 Location: PA Posts: 4	I have dillon 650's and love them there great . but like one poater said if you going to load a lot of crimped primered brass you might look at 1050 because of the crimp

July 13, 2008, 12:48 AM	#20
sidaemon Member Join Date: December 16, 2007 Posts: 73	Personally I own a Dillion 550. I wouldn't change it for the world. I hand feed everything (mostly cause I'm still pretty new, and REALLY paranoid). When I bought that particular machine I did so because of the lifetime no B.S. warrantee. I have a friend that swears by it. He says that he's replaced every part on his machine twice and Dillion has never given him a problem. I figure that at that rate, over the course of the machine, the Dillion more than pays for itself in just savings on wear and tear. Mine is accurate, consistantly, and I take powder, and measurements from every fourth shell, so I know it's spot on. I've heard good and bad about the 650, but I know that the 550 is a beautiful piece of work.

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