Shortening a revolver cartridge deliberately

azredhawk44 · December 16, 2009, 10:24 AM

I've got a moonclipped .44 Redhawk that I am about to start shooting in ICORE, steel matches and other stuff.

I've considered deliberately trimming the .44 special brass to approximately the same length as .45acp brass. This would decrease cartridge OAL and make insertion/ejection faster and easier.

It would also obviously alter any load data I had since the case would be even shorter than a .44 Russian. I'd have to develop custom load data for it, basing it probably off of .45 auto-rim data but downloading about 10% to account for the smaller diameter.

What does TFL think of this?

(Eventually I will get a .45Colt Redhawk and get it converted to accept moonclips for .45acp, but for right now, what I've got is a .44).

CraigC · December 16, 2009, 11:01 AM

I'd say start low with a faster burning powder and work up to your desired velocity.

mavracer · December 16, 2009, 11:12 AM

I normaly wouldn't reccomend stuf like this.But I know you've been at this long enough to find a safe starting place.I'm not sure what the PF is for ICORE
but I can't see you stressing a redhawk just trying to make PF with that combination.It's not like your trying to make elephant killers.
were it me I'd try 231 it's got a pretty friendly pressure curve.

what bullet are you using?

azredhawk44 · December 16, 2009, 11:45 AM

I've got some 200gr .430 mastercast LRN's that I'll probably use, though if someone recommends I go to 180's then I could be convinced to do so. I tend to be of the church of "big and slow" over "fast and light."

I've got some 231 as well as Titegroup and AA#7.

Maybe I'll dub it a new cartridge, and name it the ".44 Rim-Hawk."

Any concern over the long jump from case mouth to forcing cone, or the long jump even to the section of the chamber where it slopes inwards? Aside from the obvious build-up problems? A .44 magnum cartridge (the design cartridge for a redhawk) is about 1.700" max OAL, and a .45acp is about 1.250", so I'm adding nearly a half inch of bullet-jump if I model after a .45 ACP/AR OAL.

One thing's for sure: There's gonna be virtually no recoil from a 45 ounce Redhawk pushing a 200gr bullet at ~900fps or so.

ETA: Looked at OAL for a .44 Russian with 200gr bullets and ~900fps. It's 1.245, about the same as a .45acp. Darn those Ruskies! They beat me to my ".44 Rim-Hawk."

I thought the Russian round was longer than that, like a .45 Schofield or so (~1.400 or thereabouts).

Live and learn. At least I don't have to trim hundreds of pieces of brass.

griz · December 16, 2009, 12:23 PM

You could also start with 44 Russian data and adjust as needed. Most of that data is for cowboy shooters so is pretty mild, but it would give you a starting point. By the way, some cowboy shooters do the same thing with 45 Colt brass, and for the same reason. Unloading a single action (sometimes on the clock) is much more positive if the ejector rod only has to kick out a case that is 45 ACP length.

RidgwayCO · December 16, 2009, 12:59 PM

I concur with your decision to use the .44 Russian case. Why reinvent the wheel (unless you really want to)?

QuickLOAD says the following powders would be relatively efficient for this use (Starline .44 Russian case, 200gr LRNFP bullet, 1.250" COL out of a 4" barrel, and 900 fps). I used the SAAMI max pressure for the .44 Special of 15,500 psi since SAAMI doesn't bother with the obsolete .44 Russian):

Accurate #5
Alliant Unique, Herco, or Power Pistol
Hodgdon Universal and HS-6
Ramshot True Blue
VihtaVuori N350 and 3N37
(I'd also expect IMR 4756 to be a good choice, but they aren't in QuickLOAD's database.)

Of course you can choose other powders than those listed, but these seem to give the best combination of power, case-filling, and efficiency (amount of powder burned in the barrel before the bullet exits).

Hope this helps. Let us know what works for you.

SL1 · December 16, 2009, 01:12 PM

from the short case to the chamber throats in the cylinder: that may decrease accuracy. If all you need to do is hit an action target, instead of an x-ring on a bullseye target, that may not be a big enough effect to matter to you. But, I suggest that you try a few before going whole hog on expensive of time-consuming suff.

SL1

CraigC · December 16, 2009, 01:40 PM

I've never handloaded .44Russians to be fired in a Magnum chamber but it won't take much effort to try.

December 16, 2009, 10:24 AM	#1
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	Shortening a revolver cartridge deliberately I've got a moonclipped .44 Redhawk that I am about to start shooting in ICORE, steel matches and other stuff. I've considered deliberately trimming the .44 special brass to approximately the same length as .45acp brass. This would decrease cartridge OAL and make insertion/ejection faster and easier. It would also obviously alter any load data I had since the case would be even shorter than a .44 Russian. I'd have to develop custom load data for it, basing it probably off of .45 auto-rim data but downloading about 10% to account for the smaller diameter. What does TFL think of this? (Eventually I will get a .45Colt Redhawk and get it converted to accept moonclips for .45acp, but for right now, what I've got is a .44).

December 16, 2009, 12:59 PM	#6
RidgwayCO Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2008 Location: Western Colorado Posts: 244	I concur with your decision to use the .44 Russian case. Why reinvent the wheel (unless you really want to)? QuickLOAD says the following powders would be relatively efficient for this use (Starline .44 Russian case, 200gr LRNFP bullet, 1.250" COL out of a 4" barrel, and 900 fps). I used the SAAMI max pressure for the .44 Special of 15,500 psi since SAAMI doesn't bother with the obsolete .44 Russian): Accurate #5 Alliant Unique, Herco, or Power Pistol Hodgdon Universal and HS-6 Ramshot True Blue VihtaVuori N350 and 3N37 (I'd also expect IMR 4756 to be a good choice, but they aren't in QuickLOAD's database.) Of course you can choose other powders than those listed, but these seem to give the best combination of power, case-filling, and efficiency (amount of powder burned in the barrel before the bullet exits). Hope this helps. Let us know what works for you. __________________ "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Nope, not a single word about hunting...

December 16, 2009, 11:01 AM	#2
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	I'd say start low with a faster burning powder and work up to your desired velocity.

December 16, 2009, 11:45 AM	#4
azredhawk44 Junior member Join Date: September 28, 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 6,465	I've got some 200gr .430 mastercast LRN's that I'll probably use, though if someone recommends I go to 180's then I could be convinced to do so. I tend to be of the church of "big and slow" over "fast and light." I've got some 231 as well as Titegroup and AA#7. Maybe I'll dub it a new cartridge, and name it the ".44 Rim-Hawk." Any concern over the long jump from case mouth to forcing cone, or the long jump even to the section of the chamber where it slopes inwards? Aside from the obvious build-up problems? A .44 magnum cartridge (the design cartridge for a redhawk) is about 1.700" max OAL, and a .45acp is about 1.250", so I'm adding nearly a half inch of bullet-jump if I model after a .45 ACP/AR OAL. One thing's for sure: There's gonna be virtually no recoil from a 45 ounce Redhawk pushing a 200gr bullet at ~900fps or so. ETA: Looked at OAL for a .44 Russian with 200gr bullets and ~900fps. It's 1.245, about the same as a .45acp. Darn those Ruskies! They beat me to my ".44 Rim-Hawk." I thought the Russian round was longer than that, like a .45 Schofield or so (~1.400 or thereabouts). Live and learn. At least I don't have to trim hundreds of pieces of brass.

December 16, 2009, 12:23 PM	#5
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	You could also start with 44 Russian data and adjust as needed. Most of that data is for cowboy shooters so is pretty mild, but it would give you a starting point. By the way, some cowboy shooters do the same thing with 45 Colt brass, and for the same reason. Unloading a single action (sometimes on the clock) is much more positive if the ejector rod only has to kick out a case that is 45 ACP length.

December 16, 2009, 01:12 PM	#7
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Regarding bullet jump from the short case to the chamber throats in the cylinder: that may decrease accuracy. If all you need to do is hit an action target, instead of an x-ring on a bullseye target, that may not be a big enough effect to matter to you. But, I suggest that you try a few before going whole hog on expensive of time-consuming suff. SL1

December 16, 2009, 01:40 PM	#8
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	I've never handloaded .44Russians to be fired in a Magnum chamber but it won't take much effort to try.