Dangerous Holsters and Carry Methods

[smince]

I carry a Glock 19 or 26 Appendix Inside-The-Waistband (Dale Fricke-designed Ehud holster).

Many people think my holster and carry method is dangerous.

[tipoc]

One way of looking at it could be: 1.)what makes a holster or carry method unsafe is it's inability to reliably do the job it is intended to do by the carrier, or 2.) the method of carry, or holster, being pressed into service for a job it is not designed for. And of course, 3.) Unfamiliarity of the rig by the shooter.

An example of 1 might be; deciding that speed of draw from a CCW rig is a primary desire of the shooter but choosing a rig that is primarily designed for high weapon retention. The button, strap, whatever now become "dangerous".

2; You load your gear into the vehicle when you remember the Glock is on the table and you want to also take it to the range. You shove it in your waistband and walk to the car and load it with your gear. Fine nothing wrong. You want to go to the night club and go out dancing and drinking so you do like Plaxico. When you force a temporary and unsecure method of carry into a job it is not designed for it becomes dangerous. Similarly if you take an IDPA speed shooting rig to carry your piece for a week long tramp through the woods, sliding down hills, crossing streams, etc, don't expect it to keep your sidearm protected and secure. It can also be that the shooter believes that speed of draw in their situation is more important than security and choose a rig with this in mind but in reality the reverse is true, for police officers normally, weapon retention takes precedence over speed of draw.

3. should be obvious.

tipoc

[Glenn Dee]

IMO... Safety, like everything else happens in degree's. And so it is with holsters too. Some holsters are more safe than others, some more secure than others, some better fitted than others. Ultimately the the level of safety more depends on the user,than the product. It seems that lately we as a society have been trying to idiot proof everything. I blame frivolous law suits for this trend.

But keeping on subject I've seen only one holster that I consider truely unsafe. Of course it's one of my favorites. It's a open carry uniform duty holster used by several police departments, and countless security companies in the 50's 60's, into the 70's. I'm sure some old timers remember them. As I said it's a open carry uniform duty holster for a revolver. It has an internal lock. A spring loaded metal lever pops behind the front of the trigger guard locking the gun in the holster. In order to draw, the user must put his trigger finger in the trigger guard, and put pressure on the latch ( and the trigger) to draw. Many a man has shot himself in the foot drawing his weapon.

If you want some hair raising dangerous, and unique carry methods... Talk to some undercover officers/agents.

[ChileVerde1]

USBP just recently (last year) authorized the SERPA for duty carry. It's a nice rig and a lot better than those safarilands we had been issued. The Safariland had springs that would break and the thumbbreak would always open up when you least expected. Forget taking them on ATV's too.

I've seen thousands of presentations out of the SERPA with absolutely zero problems and the BP is very tough on their gear. We shoot quarterly and expose our stuff to the worst elements, sand, dust, etc... So far, they're doing pretty well! Being susupicious of new gadgetry oer gimmicks, I still carry a level two Bianchi Accumold but will shortly transition to the SERPA with no reservations.

[smince]

Another posting on the SERPA from the WarriorTalk site:

Simply put...the Serpa is a poorly designed but brilliantly marketed holster that causes a user to press in with the finger tip as they draw their pistol. In many cases it ends up with the trigger finger right on the trigger (and pressing inward) prematurely. In other words...long before it would be safe to do so.

I am aware of five situations where this has caused an AD on the range. Twice where it led so a self-inflicted gunshot. And these guys were either highly experienced shooters of seasoned operators. Twice I have personally seen in it force on force.

If I allow a holster like that in class, having seen the problems and knowing the problems, and a student shoots themselves...it really would be my fault. As I understand it Yeager at Tactical Response disallows them too.

Incidentally, we had one student....a gun school junkie by anyone's definition. He had a Serpa at a Weapon Retention/Disarm class I was at. I told him the holster offered a false sense of security and I could rip it right off his belt. He said he didn't think I could, but asked me to try since he wanted to know. A couple of seconds later I handed him his pistol with the Serpa still wrapped around it, but no longer attached to his belt.

[BillCA]

A safe holster means different things with different guns and in different situations.

I'd acutally prefer the term "Excellent vs. Poor" here. I think we can say a holster that is poor is probably also unsafe. Some excellent holsters may be deemed "unsafe" by violating just one provision. For instance, most shoulder holsters require a two-hand reholstering process. But that is the nature of the beast.

Excellent holsters:

• Secure the firearm to the wearer's body. This is the primary reason for a holster. To have it available when needed on your person.
• Have a strong attachment point to the body. Many police holsters with a drop-shank use steel and three screws covered in leather. Belt slots should be thick and well stitched. Someone grabbing the entire holster with both hand cannot easily separate you from the holster.
• Secure the firearm from accidental loss. This includes bending, jumping, running, up/down stairs, over fences an falling down. This implies some kind of retention device that when used properly does not allow the gun to work loose.
• Keeps its position on the body with zero or a minimum of movement. This allows you to use the same reach & grab motion every time.
• Protects the firearm from the elements. This is where "belt-slide" holsters usually fail since most of the gun is exposed. Exposure to windblown dust & debris, leaves, twigs, tree sap (ugh) and other items can cause malfunctions.
• Allows minimum delay on the draw. There is a fine balace between retention ability and ease of draw. Holsters requiring more than two steps to release the firearm may be dangerous for some applications and suitable for others.
• Allows one-handed reholstering.
• Does not cause movement of the controls or safety. In normal use, the holster can't accidentally deactivate the safety or release the magazine.
• Closely fits the firearm carried. Fits the firearm well enough that it does not easily "slide out" of the holster without the retention device in place. This typically means some form fitting or a "snug" fit to the gun.
• Has a covered triggerguard for non-SA revolvers. This is to prevent an AD should something contact the trigger during body movement.

Jim March rightfully pointed out that SA revolvers do not require a covered trigger guard. Likewise, you'll find that most SA "Cowboy" holsters are not tightly fitted to the gun. Retention is via a leather loop over the hammer, intended to be released before the hollerin' starts and replaced once the smoke clears.

For CCW, the user can make the decision if s/he favors speed of deployment over retention. Of open-top retention holsters I've seen (using one or more retention screws), about 98% will fail the "working loose" test if you run down two floors of stairs. So will some "Snap-lock" plastic or Kydex holsters.

Important note: Almost every design is a compromise of some kind. No holster relieves you of the responsibility of ensuring your gun is securely retained.

Poor Holsters:

• Has a weak or flimsy attachment system to the body.
• Is constructed out of thin or flimsy materials. (e.g. 100% nylon)
• Lack a retention method.
• Does not fit the gun and allows it to move around even when secured.
• Do not cover the trigger guards of non-SA wheelguns.
• Needs both hands to reholster the gun.
• Forces the user to "wiggle" the gun in during reholstering, thus pointing the muzzle at their own body.
• Forces the wearer to sweep portions of his body with the drawn gun.
• Requires a second hand to draw the gun (some shoulder rigs)
• Forces the wearer to put their finger on the trigger to draw the gun (e.g. Clam shell types that Glenn Dee says he likes.)
• Cannot support the weight of the gun without "leaning out" from the body. This stresses the attach point as well as exposing the gun to a grab.
• Requires more than 2 separate operations before drawing the gun (e.g. rotate hood, release strap, push down, draw) unless optimum retention is really needed.
• Requires any part of the holster to enter the triggerguard (e.g. retention straps, moving clips or locks, etc.)

Holsters can have additional features that don't directly affect their safety. Sight tracks, drainage holes, reinforced stitching, sweat guards and the like.

Small of the Back (SOB) holsters. Your spine is not designed to make contact with hard objects under sudden force impulses. That applies whether it's the ground, a thrown ballpeen hammer or your body weight slamming your spine against your favorite Sig.

[Steviewonder1]

The Youtube Video of the guy yanking the Kydex Fobus Holster off of the other guy standing there shows issues with poorly designed holsters (two rivets holding the holster to the belt connection). Some folks will not let Fobus holsters go to class (Tactical Response for one). I use a snap over the cocked and loaded 1911 (clamp between hammer and slide) with a clamp over the belt style unit (quick release). Gun is secure and requires the thumb snap to be released before drawing. A few hundred practices will insure good muscle memory with this style holster. My other goodie is for my G19 as a close to the body full leather canted forward style holster with adjustable retention with a screw adjustment. This also takes some time to practice with the holster and gun to get things right. I got rid of my Serpa holster 3 years ago after hearing and seeing the issues it has. There is no subsitute for good training and practice with your holster of choice for CCW with your UNLOADED gun.

[Archie]

Major General Julian S. Hatcher was an ordnance man in the U. S. Army nearly one hundred years ago. He wrote books that are the basis for all modern handgun and rifle shooting. In one of his books - "Hatcher's Notebooks" on handguns he noted a holster was of no use to a combatant unless one could get a firing grip on the pistol complete with finger on trigger.

That was the accepted norm, ladies and gentlemen; that was the latest and cutting edge technique just after the First World War. Oddly, there are no reports of mass butt or foot shootings. Perhaps the troops paid attention?

Up until somewhere in the 1980s, lawmen carried mostly double action revolvers in open top holsters with manual safety straps. I carried one as Border 'Troll for six years ending in 1983. Well, by the time I got out I had a G. Wm. Davis holster with a thumb break top strap. The only reason the top strap was there was HQ demanded it.

There was more than one holster with a trigger finger release. The clam shell was one such and was particularly prized by motorcycle officers of the California Highway Patrol. (They tended to keep the gun if one fell off a bike. In those days, if you fell off and could remount, you did. Sissy.) The other finger release holster was the Jaypee and had a spring loaded lever that hooked the inside of the trigger guard. One depressed the lever to withdraw the revolver. Those holsters were either issued or required by many departments in the East and allowed in many departments in the West.

My first girl friend's dad was a County Mountie (Multnomah County - Portland, Oregon) and carried a Super .38 Government Model in such a holster. I asked him about the safety of such an arrangement. He have me a puzzled look and said he never had a problem with it. He didn't seem to think anyone else did, either. He never mentioned it.

I've got both types of holsters in my collection. They look 'old'. They are well made, well stitched and all the parts fit together. They've set in boxes for years and they still work. (The clam shell needs re-covered; the leather is pretty beat up.)

About the same time law enforcement starting changing to autopistols, the 'combat shooting' sport took off. This spawned the modern 'speed holster'. The speed holster changed literally everything.

The early speed holsters were fast, all right. They couldn't be used for much anything else - movie props, I suppose. However, the early speed holsters generated 'premature discharges', 'holster shots', 'accidental discharges' and a host of other euphemisms for "Oh Dang!! What was that?"

Ranges have to have liability insurance for a number of reasons. Shooters not concentrating and ambulance chasers are two such reasons. So the range management started 'safety' campaigns. After all, this is just a game, right? No point getting injured, injuring someone else and/or losing the range.

So - among other things - holsters had to be 'idiot-proofed'. At least to the point of keeping the shooter from putting a shot through the bottom or front of the holster. Covered trigger guards. Restriction on type of holster.

Anyone aware the whole 'shoulder holsters' are dangerous dogma comes from range officers? Public or law enforcement, the range people are terrified of the potential dangers. The actual dangers may or may not exist, but in the bean counter mentality, it doesn't matter.

About the same time the nylon holsters started up. Some are worse than others, but they all look like security guard issue. The bad ones look and function like landfill security guard issue. (No offense to any security people out there; most companies just don't spend a lot on equipment.)

Law enforcement agencies aren't much better. They all set standards (usually looking over each other's shoulders) and then contract low-bidder for whatever they want. Training time is minimal to achieve whatever minimal standard is acceptable. Since we (the U. S.) now are a shockingly gun free society, recruits know next to nothing about guns. There are some who have played video games. Heaven help us!

So agencies have an unspoken distrust of employees with firearms, but they have to issue them. So they pick the (cheapest) safest guns they can find and the (cheapest) safest holsters available.

One episode we had 'Level Three Security' holsters. One breaks the strap retainer, then slightly pushes down and twists outboard, recites the 'opening ceremony' from Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves and then withdraws the pistol in a graceful arc forward while keeping the off side knee aligned with the Pole Star. They forgot about the padlock, happily.

So what is required for a proper holster?

It has to have a positive mounting system. That is, it has to stay on the belt and securely in place. This can be over done. The belt loop doesn't need to double as a repelling mount.

It has to fit the firearm. Holster movement takes off more finish than all other causes combined. Plus, the more firmly the gun is held, the less likelihood of the gun falling or bouncing out.

It has to fit the wearer. We are not all built the same. I'm short and round. What fits and is convenient for me may not work for a bean pole build. Also consider other factors. One friend of mine has arthritis in his strong side shoulder and a strong side holster just does not work for him. Another young lady friend cannot use a shoulder holster; she's too - uh - blessed.

Finally: A holster of any sort should look professional and attractive. A good looking, carved or decorated holster just doesn't look as trashy or threatening as something beat up.

Concealed holsters don't need a retaining strap - unless you're a law enforcement administrator or work for one. A proper fitting holster has all the retention required. In forty years of carrying hidden guns, I've never fallen down a flight of stairs or out of a tree or dumped a motorcycle and lost my gun. Your mileage may vary.

Open belt holsters don't need a retaining strap either; but the general public will look at you with some disbelief in their eyes. Cops will be the worst; if they have to have a retaining strap, it's a LAW of NATURE!

If you're carrying in the field, camping, hunting or such, a strap isn't such a bad idea. This is more physical than simply walking around in town.

Someone mentioned protection from the elements. For a concealed holster, not a problem. Your concealment garment should shield your gun from rain, snow and dust. For an open carry rig, this is more of an issue. I like open bottomed holsters with enough extra length to keep the muzzle from touching extraneous objects. For extreme conditions, a full flap holster works well. Unless one gets in the water. Such a holster needs to be emptied. (Anticipating this, one may drill a few 1/16 inch holes in the bottom panel for drainage.)

After all the holsters I have bought, borrowed, made, found and such; I prefer a strong side hip mount, usually just aft of the point of the hip. It seems to be the simplest to use.

Locking devices. I distrust locking devices. My latest issue holster has a rotating strap thingie - I believe the marketing people call it the 'SLS' Self-Locking System. It isn't bad, but I find it redundant. And something else to go wrong.

Leather or plastic?
I don't want plastic shoes or a plastic saddle, either. Leather, with minimal care, lasts forever. Plastic gets hard, brittle, cracks and generally gets nasty looking. Your pick.

[pax]

That was the accepted norm, ladies and gentlemen; that was the latest and cutting edge technique just after the First World War. Oddly, there are no reports of mass butt or foot shootings.

Actually: http://www.nraila.org/issues/FactShe...ad.aspx?ID=120

The modern emphasis on safe equipment and safe behavior has made a difference.

pax

[Archie]

You're comparing accidents in the population at large between then and now. I was talking about military and police training.

There are problems with reporting as well. I get unofficial reports from other agencies that don't seem to be 'aired' to the general public. The primary difference between covered trigger guards and uncovered trigger guards is the uncovered get shot wrongly on the draw, and the covered get shot wrongly on the re-holster.

I see this nonsense all the time. Law enforcement is so politically correct - including training - I can't wait to retire.

[BillCA]

Archie,

A fair summation, though I think we could quibble about some points.

As your post reads, covered trigger guards were the result of rangemasters and lawyers concerns over safety. As I recall, it was the early to mid-70's when covered trigger guards in holsters began showing up. They first showed up on PD Duty holsters. Bianchi's Breakfront holster was one of the first designs to incorporate both a covered triggerguard with a "passive" retention feature. Other manufacturers began covering their trigger guards in the early 70's in their newer holsters.

Bianchi Breakfront Holster (LH)

The reasoning was simple. Experiences during the "wacky years" between 1966-69, when police were called to break up anti-war and civil rights protests. During many of these incidents some people grabbed at their handguns. This usually resulted in the person getting seriously struck with fists and baton. But the trend was increasingly getting out of hand, even during street patrols. Several NYPD officers had their guns snatched.

Up until that time, many holsters included an exposed trigger guard to allow the wearer to get a "full grip" on the gun. Most of the "Border Patrol" style holsters of that era included an over-the-top safety strap. As an example, this Safariland "Quarter Flap" holster substituted a partial flap to protect the firearm

Safariland Model 58B Quarter-Flap Holster
Note exposed trigger

and was popular with some rangers and rural Sheriffs. The addition of the "sight track" in holsters of this era helped reduce gun-grabs by binding up if you attempted to pull the gun out from the side or rear.

Police training thru those years was usually sufficient to prevent AD's during the draw or re-holstering process. There was a fairly low incidence of holster-related AD's - so few that when it did occur, besides an official chewing out, the officer was often given a plaque commemorating the event (i.e. Royal Order of the Bottomless Holster or some such) by his peers.

Many shoulder holsters require a two-hand reholster, except those which are merely a vertical loose-fit holster. The use of metal springs, elastic and safety straps means they violate the "one-hand" reholstering rule. And by their nature, drawing them means sweeping your arm or other persons with the muzzle as you deploy it. Again it comes down to triggerfinger discipline. And what can you say about the old favorite - the Berns-Martin design like this?

Rusty Sherrick Berns-Martin rig

I can also quibble with your statement regarding CCW holsters and a retention strap.

Originally Posted by Archie

Concealed holsters don't need a retaining strap - unless you're a law enforcement administrator or work for one. A proper fitting holster has all the retention required.

Falling down stairs isn't the issue. But trying to run down two or more flights without a very secure holster means if you're not holding your gun in place, you may have to pick up your weapon after it's bounced a dozen times or so. And while the counter-argument is "a proper retention fit", to get that kind of retention means the holster holds on so tight I end up giving myself a wedgie on the draw.

A strap is also a great peace of mind in crowds; when a conversation becomes a shoving or wrestling match; and certainly if you have young kids around or get in and out of your vehicle frequently.

[r.w. schrack]

I prefer MOB with Galco Royal, alot of people say this is a good way to injure your back. I agree if you fall out of a tree, otherwise its very comfortable even operating a vehicle.

[raimius]

My range/competition holster is a kydex, open top, paddle holster. It works great, but I would hesitate to go through dense brush or crowds with it (friction retention only).

I have done airsoft competitions with a cheap, nylon, retention straped, leg-rig. I would NEVER put my real 1911 in that! I managed to dump the airsoft pistol twice...one time it got ripped out of the holster whilst climing through a window, and the other time it "disappeared" in the woods (I only found out when I tried to draw but only found a retention strap flapping in the wind). Shortly thereafter, I put a lanyard on the pistol and connected it to my belt!

For open carry, I would require some retention, personally. For concealed, friction would seem appropriate. I definitely agree that the holster MUST fit the pistol well (as my airsoft experience informed me).


Shouldn't your finger wind up along the frame of a SERPA holster? The release is supposed to be just above the trigger guard, isn't it? That's what Blackhawk advertises.
Perhaps this is a training issue...

[KenpoTex]

Originally Posted by r.w. schrack

I prefer MOB with Galco Royal, alot of people say this is a good way to injure your back. I agree if you fall out of a tree, otherwise its very comfortable even operating a vehicle.

Have you ever fallen on the thing...If you ever do I think you'll find out quickly how uncomfortable it is. I bruised the hell out of my hip once from falling on my IWB holster (worn just behind the hip-point) and I didn't have to fall out of a tree to do it.

There's also the fact that trying to access a gun from a MOB holster is going to be very difficult (if not almost impossible) if you ever find yourself rolling on the ground with someone or in the midst of a hand-to-hand fight.

[smince]

...trying to access a gun from a MOB holster is going to be very difficult (if not almost impossible) if you ever find yourself rolling on the ground with someone or in the midst of a hand-to-hand fight.

But conditon yellow will keep something like that from ever happening to me, doncha know...

(or so many think)

[smince]

Perhaps this is a training issue...

Maybe, maybe not:

I am aware of five situations where this has caused an AD on the range. Twice where it led so a self-inflicted gunshot. And these guys were either highly experienced shooters or seasoned operators.

[raimius]

Were they experienced with that equipment?

I am not calling people incompetant. Switching equipment can really mess with people, even ones who are HIGHLY proficient with their standard setup. If they had trained to keep their finger on the front of the trigger guard, switching to a SERPA could EASILY lead to a ND on the draw. If they were using it as designed, their finger should not have wound up on the trigger. Granted, the margin of error is too slim for many peoples' preference, but I don't think the basic design is faulty in that respect...in my opinion.

[Uncle Buck]

I was just thinking of the time my revolver got torn out of its holster:

I was working town patrol (TP) in Korea. I was not supposed to work TP that evening and left my leather gear at home. A schedule change put me on TP, wearing the Air Force issued .38, in a belt and holster the armorer found for me. We were in the market place that evening, checking to make sure there were no GI's in the area after dark.

We saw a couple of GI's were they did not belong and as we approached they took off. We went after them and as I took a corner, my holster snagged a table in the market place. The thread on the holster ripped and the weapon fell out. My partner yelled "I've got it." so I kept on running after my guy.

I led my guy in handcuffs back to the gate and asked my partner where my pistol was. He had a blank look on his face and said he did not know. After repeating what he said to him ("I've got it.") he said he was referring to the bag one of the guys had thrown. I had not seen the bag thrown, so assumed he meant my pistol.

We went back and searched the area twice and could not find the pistol. Long story short, it was turned in to the gate about four minutes after we returned the second time.

The thread on the holster had rotted. My Lt. looked at it and pulled on the strap and it came off in his hand.

It was a safe holster when it was made, but over the years it had deteriorated and made the rig unsafe. So condition of the holster also has a lot to do with whether it is safe or not.

[jborushko]

<^> oh my! thats no good!! alot of trouble?

[Uncle Buck]

No, but believe me, everyone of us learned to try to tear those leather holsters apart at the seams.

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by pax

I'm shamelessly using everyone else's brains to check my own thinking on this one. If I weighed in, I'd contaminate the comparison sample...

Okay, Pax, it's been three weeks. Enough of a sample to confirm or refute your opinion?

Inquiring minds...

[pax]

Bill,

Yup.

Here's my synthesis: it's easy to get hung up on specific features, but a better way to analyze good holster vs bad holster is to look at what holsters are designed to do and then ask whether (and how well) a specific holster or carry method accomplishes those goals.

A safe holster performs several crucial functions, while an unsafe holster either fails to perform one of these functions or does so in a way that encourages the user to violate safe gunhandling procedures.

So what's a holster supposed to do? Why do we use them? Here's my take: we use holsters for three basic reasons --

1. To safely secure firearm
2. To keep the firearm comfortably concealed
3. To keep the firearm immediately accessible

1) Safely secure.

A firearm lying on a table, untouched by human hands, is a safe and inert device. It's not going to "go off" by itself -- that takes deliberate human intervention. The ideally safe holster or carry method holds the gun securely in this same inert state until a human deliberately changes the gun's status.

This means that once the firearm is placed within the holster or carry system, there should be no way for the firearm to unexpectedly discharge—whether by the user's wayward finger or by external happenstance. As a general rule for modern firearms, this means that the trigger and the entire trigger guard area must be enclosed or encased, and that the material surrounding the trigger must be sturdy enough to prevent outside activity from moving the trigger.

I am aware that holsters years ago (primarily designed for SA or DA revolvers) didn't always cover the trigger. When used with anything other than an SA revolver, these were poor and unsafe designs even with well-trained users because the firearms were not in an inert status. The triggers could be levered back and the gun could discharge without the user ever touching either the firearm or the holster. Similarly, although many people carry in pockets or purses without using an internal holster, the trigger must be protected from external movement just as surely as it would be if it were carried in a belt holster. Allowing the firearm to float around loosely within an oversized compartment, with trigger uncovered and vulnerable to pressure from keys, pens, coins, and other detritus, is simply asking for trouble.

Once the firearm is in an inert status, the holster needs to secure the firearm in that status. It should not be possible for the gun to simply fall out of the holster or wiggle its way out of the carry method. The user should be able to jump, twist, run short distances, and bend over without any chance that the gun will fall out of its inert packaging system.

2) Comfortably conceal

Obviously this isn't a factor for open carry or field holsters. But if you select a holster for concealed carry, that holster should help you conceal the firearm rather than working against your attempts at concealment. Similarly, it needs to be comfortable because if it is not, concealment will be compromised every time you reach to adjust it or fiddle with it -- and because you'll end up leaving the gun at home if the carry method is not comfortable to you.

3) Immediately accessible

A good holster or carry method allows the user to immediately access the gun. If you can't get to it quickly and efficiently, you might as well leave the gun at home.

pax

[Gatorpan]

IWB holsters that use clips and not leather strap to go around your belt.

Some 30 years ago while practicing on a range I drew my pistol and the holster came with it!!! Very hard to get a good sight picture after that.

Fortunately you can lots of good IWB holster with leather straps to retain the holster in your belt.

Rafi

[raimius]

Gatorpan, I think there have been some improvements in the last 30 years...

[pax]

raimius,

Yes -- and no. If I had a dime for every clip or paddle holster I've seen fly downrange in the past ten years, I'd be able to buy a large latte from Starbuck's.

pax