Illegal info given at Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL

funny book flapjack · April 15, 2009, 05:27 PM

Thought I should post this here. I believe in naming names when someone deserves it, so-- Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL apparently has no problems treating their potential customers rudely, while basically telling them to just go commit a felony, because they are busy right now.

I'm pretty mad at these guys right now. We talk a lot here about misinformation spewed by gunshop employees. This one's a bigger deal to me, since:

1. The misinformation would have resulted in my mother-in-law & me commiting a felony.

2. He was extremely rude & arrogant about giving the misinformation to her, & told me to "quit wasting his time & go call the cops if I didn't like it."

Here's the email I sent to the store's contact address, explaining what happened:

Hello,

I just got off of the phone with one one of your salesmen (I didn't get his name). My mother-in-law was just in your store, & your salesman gave her information that, if we followed his advice, would result in her (& me) committing a federal felony.

When she put me on the phone to speak with him, he told me that I was an idiot, & that "he didn't have time to argue with someone who didn't know what they were talking about."

Now-- I don't expect all salesmen to know every firearm law in the country, but this is a pretty big one. Even if he didn't know the answer, he should say he didn't know the answer, instead of providing an incorrect & illegal one.

It is federal law that, if one resident of a state wants to gift or sell a handgun to a resident of a different state, that they must do the transaction through an FFL in the recipient's state of residency as an intermediate.

It is irrelevant that neither Florida (her state of residence) nor Georgia (my state of residence) have state registrations, or require licensing to purchase/own/possess a handgun. A federal law that is stricter than state requirements trumps those states' (any/all states') requirements. It doesn't matter if the two people are relatives, if it's a gift instead of a sale, or if they are currently physically in the same state as one another. If a person wants to sell or gift a handgun to another person, & those two people are residents of different states-- IT IS A FELONY TO DO SO WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AN FFL DEALER OF THE RECIPIENT'S STATE.

From the BATFE website:

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own state? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

Is it a stupid law? Of course it is. But the fact remains-- it is a felony for me to gift or sell a handgun to my mother-in-law, unless that handgun transaction goes through an FFL dealer in her state of residence (Florida).

I don't have time to argue with your salesman any more than he has time to argue with me. I am at work right now as well. But I don't appreciate your salesman giving information to me & my mother-in-law that is a felony, & I certainly don't appreciate your salesman rudely telling me that I am an idiot when I informed him of his mistake. He ended by telling me to "call the cops on him if I don't like it."

Well-- he wasn't doing anything illegal by not doing the transfer, so calling the cops on him would accomplish nothing. But telling us that we needn't do the transfer with a Florida FFL, could have gotten both her & me felony convictions. The BATFE doesn't play games, & your staff need to familiarize themselves with the federal laws that apply to the firearms business.

I am an active member of The High Road, The Firing Line, M1911 Pistol Organazation, & many other websites with readerships of many thousands of people per day. I will be posting this on each of those sites, so I would imagine that by the weekend, somewhere around 50,000 people will have read about the rude, incorrect, & dangerous way that your sales help deals with potential customers.

hogdogs · April 15, 2009, 05:35 PM

And I will phone them tomorrow to let them know I am a florida resident who has read of your situation...
Brent

funny book flapjack · April 15, 2009, 05:43 PM

Thanks hogdogs.

At first, it was nice that he thought he could save her some money on the transfer, & told her so. Not all salesmen would do that if they thought they could make a buck. But it was incorrect info, & dangerously so. And when I said that the BATFE clearly states it is illegal, he quickly became very rude.

Normally I wouldn't care about a rude salesman, & just take my money elsewhere, but what he is telling customers has the potential to get them arrested.

comn-cents · April 15, 2009, 05:48 PM

Thanks for letting people know and letting the store know. If you happen to send this to the ATF I dont think the sales guy would be pretty surprised when they show up to ask is --- some questions.
I worked in a gun store and the owner told the ATF he could do what ever he wanted and hung up on them. 2 days later when the ATF swat team showed up boy were we surprised. You are very correct they don't mess around.

OttoJara · April 15, 2009, 05:48 PM

It is because of people like the salesman that we refer to this state as "Floi-DUH".

hogdogs · April 15, 2009, 05:55 PM

Otto, Us native flor-idiots take offense when you call the "bikini/gunshine" state... "Flori-duhhh"...

Don't make me come after ya', You will no itz me 'cuz I will be the guy with the one big yeller toof!

Brent

OttoJara · April 15, 2009, 06:10 PM

Hogdogs, I too am born and raised in this fine state. It's these morons that give us the bad names we have. BTW FYI, I live in Greenacres on White Pine Circle. Look for the only house fling the Flag of our Great Country.

3 gun · April 16, 2009, 02:16 AM

Who's the one that couldn't be trusted? Don't ask, don't tell. Just me.

ISC · April 16, 2009, 02:20 AM

This is a pretty stupid thing to get worked up about.

funny book flapjack · April 16, 2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Who's the one that couldn't be trusted? Don't ask, don't tell. Just me.

And if I gave it to her illegally, then gun is later stolen, she reports it stolen, it's used in a violent crime, recovered, traced back to me, & the ATF wants to know why it was in her possession in a different state than I reside in without having been transferred from me through a Florida FFL, then decides to charge me (& her) with a felony... would the ATF do that? Maybe, maybe not. Could they? Absolutely.

I'll pass on taking that chance. Just me.

Quote:

This is a pretty stupid thing to get worked up about.

Interesting take.

I dunno, maybe it is just me. A person in the business of transferring ownership of firearms from one owner to another, gives incorrect legal advice that is directly related to the business they are in. Then becomes insulting toward us when informed politely that his advice was in fact illegal...

I imagine most people who walk into gun stores don't know all federal gun laws. It's not like this is incorrect info at Best Buy on which TV screen is clearer. TV sales don't get people arrested. I don't think it's unfair to hold a gun salesman to a somewhat higher standard than a TV salesman-- again-- if he is going to quote law to his customer.

I would have no real problem with him not 100% knowing the law. Tell the customer he'll look it up to find out. Or that he's busy & that she needs to find out herself. But to tell a customer something incorrect (that could result in a felony arrest) about the business that he deals in, is worth getting worked up about IMO.

If I hadn't known the truth, we may have commited a felony. Felony. Prison. No more guns. No vote. Etc.

Is it just me?

blume357 · April 16, 2009, 06:57 AM

mother's house or does she spend in Georgia with you?

The term 'resident' is very relative... especially in this situation.

funny book flapjack · April 16, 2009, 07:22 AM

Nah-- I know about the whole 2 states residency allowance, but she is already a resident of both Florida & Maine. She worked in both places this year, had property in both places, will pay taxes in both places, will be living in both places again this year, etc. When she comes through GA, she parks her RV at our place a while, then takes off.

I thought of the 2 state ATF reg while she was here before, but with no sort of legit GA proof of residence (she couldn't go to a gun store here & buy a gun), & paper trail as a resident of both Florida & Maine, trying to claim her as a Georgia resident as well as Florida & Maine is getting into an ATF grey area that I really don't wanna mess with.

ATF regs specifically state the number 2 as far as the # residences allowed. I haven't seen anything from them prohibiting more than 2, but I haven't seen anything allowing it either. Since they state 2 in the regs, & her 2 are really Florida & Maine, I'm not gonna chance the ATF excepting a 3rd state as residence.

Besides-- it's irrelevant right now. She's in FL. I'm here in GA. I will be down there soon, but have absolutely no legit justification in claiming FL residency. Sure, I could just hand her the gun when I go, but it's illegal to do so.

That's all I was trying to explain to the Buck's salesman-- that we need it to go through an FFL for her to receive the gun while she's in Florida.

blume357 · April 16, 2009, 08:38 AM

do you have a link to it? The way I read the ATF information page, if you are living in a state your are a resident of the state. I guess the question is what is living... but many philosophers down through the ages have debated this question to no end.....

I'm not questioning your judgement on this... even though I think the law in this case is the biggest bunch of B.S. ever created by elected officials and over paid government employees there is....

Laws are meant to make life better for us. How can a son giving his mother or a mother giving her son a gun regardless of the states they live in, harm 'society'?

I really think there comes a time in society when the lawmakers need to stop making new laws and start removing them.

hogdogs · April 16, 2009, 08:45 AM

Well, as promised, I made a call to Buck's and spoke to the manager on duty. He admitted he doesn't open email too often due to being a busy person. He states, in defense of his sales team, that they are very well trained and versed in the legal aspects of gun sales and ownership. The arrogance and rudeness also struck him as not very likely but he will look into this now that he is aware of a disgruntled customer of FFL service.

Funny book, Call and ask to speak to the manager to share the exacts of your experience to clear this up for him! 1-800-717-0727 or 386-252-8471
Brent

funny book flapjack · April 16, 2009, 06:42 PM

Just saw this post. Thanks hogdogs.

He didn't reply to my email. It's past closing now I would guess, but I will give him a call in the morning.

I'll post here after I've spoken with him.

Thanks again.

April 15, 2009, 05:27 PM	#1
funny book flapjack Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 13	Illegal info given at Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL Thought I should post this here. I believe in naming names when someone deserves it, so-- Buck's Gun Rack in Daytona, FL apparently has no problems treating their potential customers rudely, while basically telling them to just go commit a felony, because they are busy right now. I'm pretty mad at these guys right now. We talk a lot here about misinformation spewed by gunshop employees. This one's a bigger deal to me, since: 1. The misinformation would have resulted in my mother-in-law & me commiting a felony. 2. He was extremely rude & arrogant about giving the misinformation to her, & told me to "quit wasting his time & go call the cops if I didn't like it." Here's the email I sent to the store's contact address, explaining what happened: Hello, I just got off of the phone with one one of your salesmen (I didn't get his name). My mother-in-law was just in your store, & your salesman gave her information that, if we followed his advice, would result in her (& me) committing a federal felony. When she put me on the phone to speak with him, he told me that I was an idiot, & that "he didn't have time to argue with someone who didn't know what they were talking about." Now-- I don't expect all salesmen to know every firearm law in the country, but this is a pretty big one. Even if he didn't know the answer, he should say he didn't know the answer, instead of providing an incorrect & illegal one. It is federal law that, if one resident of a state wants to gift or sell a handgun to a resident of a different state, that they must do the transaction through an FFL in the recipient's state of residency as an intermediate. It is irrelevant that neither Florida (her state of residence) nor Georgia (my state of residence) have state registrations, or require licensing to purchase/own/possess a handgun. A federal law that is stricter than state requirements trumps those states' (any/all states') requirements. It doesn't matter if the two people are relatives, if it's a gift instead of a sale, or if they are currently physically in the same state as one another. If a person wants to sell or gift a handgun to another person, & those two people are residents of different states-- IT IS A FELONY TO DO SO WITHOUT GOING THROUGH AN FFL DEALER OF THE RECIPIENT'S STATE. From the BATFE website: [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30] (B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own state? [Back] A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. [18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)] Is it a stupid law? Of course it is. But the fact remains-- it is a felony for me to gift or sell a handgun to my mother-in-law, unless that handgun transaction goes through an FFL dealer in her state of residence (Florida). I don't have time to argue with your salesman any more than he has time to argue with me. I am at work right now as well. But I don't appreciate your salesman giving information to me & my mother-in-law that is a felony, & I certainly don't appreciate your salesman rudely telling me that I am an idiot when I informed him of his mistake. He ended by telling me to "call the cops on him if I don't like it." Well-- he wasn't doing anything illegal by not doing the transfer, so calling the cops on him would accomplish nothing. But telling us that we needn't do the transfer with a Florida FFL, could have gotten both her & me felony convictions. The BATFE doesn't play games, & your staff need to familiarize themselves with the federal laws that apply to the firearms business. I am an active member of The High Road, The Firing Line, M1911 Pistol Organazation, & many other websites with readerships of many thousands of people per day. I will be posting this on each of those sites, so I would imagine that by the weekend, somewhere around 50,000 people will have read about the rude, incorrect, & dangerous way that your sales help deals with potential customers.

April 15, 2009, 05:48 PM	#5
OttoJara Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 459	It is because of people like the salesman that we refer to this state as "Floi-DUH". __________________ The early bird may get the worm, but, the second rat, gets the cheese. "A fear of weapons, is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

April 15, 2009, 06:10 PM	#7
OttoJara Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 459	Hogdogs, I too am born and raised in this fine state. It's these morons that give us the bad names we have. BTW FYI, I live in Greenacres on White Pine Circle. Look for the only house fling the Flag of our Great Country. __________________ The early bird may get the worm, but, the second rat, gets the cheese. "A fear of weapons, is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

April 16, 2009, 02:16 AM	#8
3 gun Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: N41 24.283 W81 43.370 N.E.Ohio Posts: 561	Who's the one that couldn't be trusted? Don't ask, don't tell. Just me. __________________ Change you can believe in... Pre-65 US silver coins NRA RSO & Certified Instructor in rifle, pistol, shotgun. An unloaded pistol is a paperweight. Opportunity knocks..Trouble kicks down the door.

April 16, 2009, 06:57 AM	#11
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	How many weeks a year do you spend in Florida at your mother's house or does she spend in Georgia with you? The term 'resident' is very relative... especially in this situation.

April 15, 2009, 05:35 PM	#2
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	And I will phone them tomorrow to let them know I am a florida resident who has read of your situation... Brent

April 15, 2009, 05:43 PM	#3
funny book flapjack Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 13	Thanks hogdogs. At first, it was nice that he thought he could save her some money on the transfer, & told her so. Not all salesmen would do that if they thought they could make a buck. But it was incorrect info, & dangerously so. And when I said that the BATFE clearly states it is illegal, he quickly became very rude. Normally I wouldn't care about a rude salesman, & just take my money elsewhere, but what he is telling customers has the potential to get them arrested.

April 15, 2009, 05:48 PM	#4
comn-cents Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2008 Location: Pac.N.W. Posts: 1,804	Thanks for letting people know and letting the store know. If you happen to send this to the ATF I dont think the sales guy would be pretty surprised when they show up to ask is --- some questions. I worked in a gun store and the owner told the ATF he could do what ever he wanted and hung up on them. 2 days later when the ATF swat team showed up boy were we surprised. You are very correct they don't mess around.

April 15, 2009, 05:55 PM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Otto, Us native flor-idiots take offense when you call the "bikini/gunshine" state... "Flori-duhhh"... Don't make me come after ya', You will no itz me 'cuz I will be the guy with the one big yeller toof! Brent

April 16, 2009, 02:20 AM	#9
ISC Junior member Join Date: August 5, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,982	This is a pretty stupid thing to get worked up about.

April 16, 2009, 07:22 AM	#12
funny book flapjack Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 13	Nah-- I know about the whole 2 states residency allowance, but she is already a resident of both Florida & Maine. She worked in both places this year, had property in both places, will pay taxes in both places, will be living in both places again this year, etc. When she comes through GA, she parks her RV at our place a while, then takes off. I thought of the 2 state ATF reg while she was here before, but with no sort of legit GA proof of residence (she couldn't go to a gun store here & buy a gun), & paper trail as a resident of both Florida & Maine, trying to claim her as a Georgia resident as well as Florida & Maine is getting into an ATF grey area that I really don't wanna mess with. ATF regs specifically state the number 2 as far as the # residences allowed. I haven't seen anything from them prohibiting more than 2, but I haven't seen anything allowing it either. Since they state 2 in the regs, & her 2 are really Florida & Maine, I'm not gonna chance the ATF excepting a 3rd state as residence. Besides-- it's irrelevant right now. She's in FL. I'm here in GA. I will be down there soon, but have absolutely no legit justification in claiming FL residency. Sure, I could just hand her the gun when I go, but it's illegal to do so. That's all I was trying to explain to the Buck's salesman-- that we need it to go through an FFL for her to receive the gun while she's in Florida.

April 16, 2009, 08:38 AM	#13
blume357 Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2005 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 3,943	I've never seen specifics on the '2 state residency allowance' do you have a link to it? The way I read the ATF information page, if you are living in a state your are a resident of the state. I guess the question is what is living... but many philosophers down through the ages have debated this question to no end..... I'm not questioning your judgement on this... even though I think the law in this case is the biggest bunch of B.S. ever created by elected officials and over paid government employees there is.... Laws are meant to make life better for us. How can a son giving his mother or a mother giving her son a gun regardless of the states they live in, harm 'society'? I really think there comes a time in society when the lawmakers need to stop making new laws and start removing them.

April 16, 2009, 08:45 AM	#14
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Well, as promised, I made a call to Buck's and spoke to the manager on duty. He admitted he doesn't open email too often due to being a busy person. He states, in defense of his sales team, that they are very well trained and versed in the legal aspects of gun sales and ownership. The arrogance and rudeness also struck him as not very likely but he will look into this now that he is aware of a disgruntled customer of FFL service. Funny book, Call and ask to speak to the manager to share the exacts of your experience to clear this up for him! 1-800-717-0727 or 386-252-8471 Brent

April 16, 2009, 06:42 PM	#15
funny book flapjack Junior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: GA Posts: 13	Just saw this post. Thanks hogdogs. He didn't reply to my email. It's past closing now I would guess, but I will give him a call in the morning. I'll post here after I've spoken with him. Thanks again.