why conceal in an open carry state?

[Jim March]

Plus there's sheeple who go like this when they see your piece:

[TenRing]

I'm thankful to have the right to choose between OC and CC depending on my daily situation and circumstances. Unfortunately for me, the problem is that I have to be cognizant of how my private behavior affects me on the job.

I have been known to OC when hunting away from town with my hunting buddies and that is no big deal at all. However, if I were OCing around town and my co-workers or bosses saw me exercising my 2A rights, I'm convinced that there would be some uncomfortable consequences for me back at work. There would probably be plenty of snide remarks and innuendo from people who just don't get it. This isn't right and it's not fair but I can't do much about it and I'm not brave enough to risk my job just to prove that I can OC.

The less people know about my carry status, the better. Everybody's situation is different and I fully support the decision of anyone who chooses to OC. Part of being in society is the fact that we are all subject to each other's influence whether we like it or not.

[Ringolevio]

lawnboy wrote [re my reference to CC while at a nude beach]:

I said difficult, not impossible. Was that the place up near Arlington?

Negatory. It was a beach on Sauvie's Island, outside Portland. Circa 1979 - '83.

Come to think of it, I believe it was my frequent trips to that beach that induced me to buy my first semi-auto. Up until that time I owned only revolvers, but I reckoned that it would be easier to strip and flush sand out of a semi-auto than out of a revolver.

[Polynikes]

I OC here in Colorado because I'm waiting on the Sheriff's Office to issue my permit.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A bad guy who shoots you for OC may do that to get the gun. If you are CCing, then he or she is unlikely to shoot you for your gun, unless the BG is really Mae West. Think about it.

So is this about legit issues or posturing? You want to be seen as a tough guy as compared to legit deterrence?

That's different from being in a OC only state.

There may be casual deterrence. We have the Pancake house case, where OC scared off some BGs. We have some OCs being specifically targeted.

One might be confident in one's abilities but we do see LEOs (yes, you might be better than them) being taken out in ambush or by simply walking up and shooting four of them. A SWAT team member was disarmed and killed with his gun near where I live. YYMV.

[MLeake]

Glenn, while there are some who see OC as a deterrent, I think many of us see the primary advantage to legalized OC in two other scenarios:

1) inadvertent printing or display of a CC weapon;

and

2) transit to and from hunting sites.

I'm not about to head into metro Atlanta OCing. Nor Philadelphia, Orlando, etc. Even where it's legal, I don't prefer it in a metro setting. But I still think it should be legal.

Then again, I like my governmental regulation to be toward the minimal end, in most things.

I still feel that in those areas that don't have CC, or that make CC very difficult to get, people should definitely be allowed to OC if they wish. In one of those places where OC was legal, and I couldn't CC, I might actually OC, but with the minimum amount of exposure the law would allow, probably IWB with just the grip exposed.

Normally, though, the only places where my permits don't work are also places where one can't OC. I don't have occasion to visit Wisconsin...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'd make OC legal but I was trying to focus on the major reasons for such. Casual exposure, sure - on the way to hunting, been there - but I don't seem them as the center of the argument.

There is also a political issue of pushing OC at the same time as other progun legislation and the former interferring with the latter. TX has had such fights. Given OC has a lesser chance to pass - the risk of a combined failure of all bills was a mess. However, since the campus carry bills and parking lots are failing - a long story - that may be moot.

[LordTio3]

I CC in my OC state mainly for these reasons:

1. "Is that thing loaded?"
2. "Is that legal?"
3. "Are you sure you can do that?"
4. "Hey! What do you think you're DOING?! What do you mean it's legal?"
5. "Wait right there. Don't come any closer."
6. "It's really legal?"

Honestly, as a responsible gun owner, I find in necessary to address these issues when they arrise. I calmly talk to people and explain the legalities of my method of carry, and provide as much information about it as possible in a patient and friendly tone.

I just don't have to time to do that all the time. And there are a LOT of people who have no problem stopping you and asking these questions.

~LT

[threegun]

A bad guy who is going to shoot you because your carrying a sidearm in the open is more than likely going to shoot you if your carrying concealed anyway.

You are assuming that the same bad guy who is willing to shoot you first because you are openly carrying, has shot every previous unarmed or concealed carry victim at the onset of the robbery. I think this is incorrect.

At my job we open carry. In 27 years not even a single robbery has taken place in our shops. This despite multiple robberies of pawnshops in the immediate area. OC has aided us in avoiding litterally dozens of robberies.

That said only a fool would not realize that when our day finally comes there is a good chance that its gonna be very bad from the onset. Someone will be forced to open fire at the onset and possibly come with multiple heavily armed foe. We are constantly watching for the signs and looking for folks staging outside. We have cameras around the outside perimeter just to prevent/prepare for the bad one.

[MLeake]

threegun, I suspect you are not normally alone when you OC.

Most of the shops I've been in where OC was used, had a minimum of two people on the floor. Most had three or four.

I think OC is more of a deterrent when there's more than one guy carrying.

I can only recall one place where the guy OC'ed, and it was only him, and that's a guy viewed as "a local character" in Kennesaw, GA. He's not likely to get shot in a robbery, as he mostly sells collectibles that would appeal primarily to guys who wear white hoods, or shaven heads and leather. (I hadn't realized that when I entered the place, or I wouldn't have entered the place.)

Not likely to have much money. If he ever gets shot, I assume it will be because:

1) Somebody wants the 1911's he wears in a double-crossdraw rig; or

2) Somebody gets violently offended by his inventory and his comments.

[FireForged]

It all boils down to personal preference and what your SD tactics are. If its legal to OC, I will not fault anyone for doing so. That being said, I live in a OC state and always CC.

As a lone citizen, I am not inclined to believe that holding myself out to the "public at large" as a armed person is going to greatly benifit me (self defence wise) over Concealed Carry. Can OC deter a criminal, sure. I think the level of deterrance is best determined by a "flip of a coin". It all depends on the badguy, how violent and now determind he is. I would prefer not to stand out and decide for myself when and what action I will take, if any.

I also do not prefer all the unwanted attention, contacts, conversation, questions, attitudes, glares and 911 calls that typcally go along with OC.

[Ringolevio]

MLeake wrote:

I can only recall one place where the guy OC'ed, and it was only him, and that's a guy viewed as "a local character" in Kennesaw, GA. He's not likely to get shot in a robbery, as he mostly sells collectibles that would appeal primarily to guys who wear white hoods, or shaven heads and leather. (I hadn't realized that when I entered the place, or I wouldn't have entered the place.)

Not likely to have much money. If he ever gets shot, I assume it will be because:

1) Somebody wants the 1911's he wears in a double-crossdraw rig; or

2) Somebody gets violently offended by his inventory and his comments.

Well, whaddya know, MLeake! You and I have a mutual friend!
There's only one fellow who fits your description, and I count him among my friends, despite the impression and the rhetoric associated with him and his little shop/museum.

You do realize that the fellow is a legitimate authority and historical consultant on "The War of Northern Aggression". And the Battle of Kennesaw Mountain was one in which the Grays really, really put a whuppin' on the Blues.

When I first went in there, years ago, I saw all the various hate-group notices outside, and saw our friend's two longslide 1911s worn Wild Bill Hickok-style, and because I belong to one of the ethnic groups he purports to hate, I stood in the doorway and said, "Here I am! If you wanna kill folks like me, I'll stand here and make a target for you; take your best shot!"

Needless to say, I'm still alive, and I used to visit every time I was down there and we'd have lunch. I haven't been down that way in quite awhile, but we correspond now and again via e-mail.

Remember that Kennesaw is the town that REQUIRED all residents to own guns. They did it in reaction to Morton Grove, Illinois FORBIDDING their citizens from owning guns, even in their own homes.

There never was much crime in Kennesaw, but when their "must own" (not "must carry") law went into effect, whatever crime there was pretty much evaporated.

[MLeake]

Ringolevio, my impression was based on inventory I found to be overtly racist, and comments made about the government that I found to be over the top.

Could be our mutual acquaintance is just an indiscriminate collector, and that I judged too quickly, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

[lawnboy]

I personally view the OC/CC issue like this:

• I'll support any legislation to legalize OC where it is not currently legal.
• I'll support any legislation so legalize CC where it is not currently legal
• I'll always support KEEPING OC and/or CC where it is already legal
• I'll choose to CC except in the rare situation where I'm in a location where OC is as natural and widespread as wearing shoes (or where it is the only option).
• I'll argue politely in private (like here) with anyone who thinks they're serving an educational purpose by OC where OC is not common

I wish all the OC folks well and I hope I'm wrong about the educational/tactical possibilities of OC.

P.S. This thread elsewhere on TFL is the nightmare scenario that can result from someone seeing you carrying a gun, legal or not. This does happen:http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=449445

[threegun]

threegun, I suspect you are not normally alone when you OC.

Years ago we ran one of the two stores with a single employee. I worked a few times at that location. Nowadays its multiples at both stores.

It worked as a deterrent even single man because we had control of space via counters. We were very very cautious when on the wrong side of the counter. Personally I didn't like being alone although others preferred it.

[Tom Servo]

Could be our mutual acquaintance is just an indiscriminate collector, and that I judged too quickly, but it wasn't my cup of tea.

He's toned down the rhetoric the last few years, but unless I'm mistaken, he's still in the local KKK leadership.

[GoOfY-FoOt]

I'll choose to CC except in the rare situation where I'm in a location where OC is as natural and widespread as wearing shoes

I do believe this statement is an oxymoron....

As in, the more widespread that OC is accepted, the less the desire for quality footwear....

[MLeake]

Never been to southwest CO, eh, Goofy-Foot? Pagosa Springs is not much lower rent than Aspen, but it's a big area for OC. Lots of hunters, hikers, and horse folk.

[GoOfY-FoOt]

It was a joke....And, I was picturing the hills of Kentucky. (very near where I was born)

[zxcvbob]

Whenever I drive across Kentucky, I take my shoes off at the state line. (true) It just seems fitting. And I've been told to be careful if they are leather, 'cuz someone may swipe them for the burgoo pot.
__________________
"When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky where my parents were born. There's a backwards old town that's often remembered So many times that the memories are worn" -John Prine

[smince]

Since I posted the link to the Open Carry thread in #105, it has went to 9 pages with some interesting responses.

[Nnobby45]

Honestly, as a responsible gun owner, I find in necessary to address these issues when they arrise. I calmly talk to people and explain the legalities of my method of carry, and provide as much information about it as possible in a patient and friendly tone.

I just don't have to time to do that all the time. And there are a LOT of people who have no problem stopping you and asking these questions.

OK, apparently the purpose of the gun for you is that of conversation starter so that you might educate others, especially those who have a negative response to OC.

Thank you.

While drawing attention to yourself so you can educate the public, no one will notice me and I can play the part of Gray Man (one of Clint Smith's references). Hopefully, I won't be distracted by you and the interesting conversation so that I might forget to be alert to my other surroundings.

[JustThisGuy]

The best reason to live in an open carry state is so that if a concealed carry accidentally displays for a moment such as if my jacket suddenly blows open on a windy day at a gas pump, no crime has been committed.

[dburkhead]

Really? How would you approach a robbery or assault on an armed openly carrying victim? I would simply shoot them and then take what I want. Not something I would want to defend against if that bad one does happen.

You see, that's where we differ. I'd approach the robbery or assault of an openly carrying victim by choosing somebody else. As the criminal, I would get to pick when, where, and who I attack. And soft targets would appeal a _lot_ more than armed targets. After all, even if I took the "just shoot them" approach, maybe I'd miss, or maybe I'd get them but they'd remain active ("the dead man's ten seconds") long enough to return fire. Chancy, even when I have the drop on them. Better to find someone who's less risky.

[dburkhead]

A bad guy who shoots you for OC may do that to get the gun. If you are CCing, then he or she is unlikely to shoot you for your gun, unless the BG is really Mae West. Think about it.

So far two cases of that have been presented. Is something for which only two cases can and have been presented really something to worry about? And what _else_ might one have/do that can lead to at least two cases of someone being targeted? A nice suit (indicating that you might have money)? Nice watch? Nice car to be carjacked? Nice stereo visible from a window (leading to a home invasion)?

If "someone might target you for it" is sufficient reason to not OC then what else are you willing to give up to avoid being a target? Dress like a bum so no one thinks you have money? Live in a dump? Drive a POS car all the time that nobody wants to jack? Where else does this approach extend?

Similar for the "they might target you first" argument that some make. I have been around on the cc vs. oc argument before and to date nobody has come up with an example of a citizen, lawfully armed and open carrying who was targeted first at a robbery. This has happened to police and uniformed security but that's not quite the same thing. Police and paid security are a "regular" item that would be included in the criminals' plans. And again, even if one came up with one, how often does it really happen compared to other things?

Finally (and this is just a general response), regarding all the psychoanalyzing of people who OC from some CC proponents. Would you like it if the tables were turned, and it were assumed that the reason you conceal, when you could carry openly, is because you recognize that guns are something to be hidden away because they are shameful? Tell you what: I won't make unflattering assumptions about your motives and you can perhaps return the favor.