Letter from VA raises questions of intent

[IRDWalrus]

I'm 100%, permanent. I used to go to the VA, but found it just as frustrating and incompetent as the active military health care system that contributed to my disability in the first place. Since I was medically retired and have Tricare as an option, I switched to using the same family doctor that my wife and kids were using, and specialists as needed.

I haven't seen this letter.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This was intended to illustrate their stated point of view. REALITY, is of course, somewhat different.

And my point was that, whatever public face the VA is trying to project these days, the reality very much IS different. Very different.

You mentioned partnering in decisions. I've been using the VA system for the past 15 years or more, due to not having employment that provides any health coverage. There just isn't a whole lot of "partnering" going on. They run it just as arbitrarily as the .mil. They don't even know what "make an appointment" means. In the real world, that means you call the doctor's office, speak with a receptionist, and find a time when the doctor has an opening and you can get there. "Make an appointment" to the VA means they send you a letter telling you to be there on such-and-such date, at such-and-such time.

Can't make it then? Good luck. The telephone number leads you to a completely automated phone tree system that's virtually unnavigable.

I've been chewed out for showing up for a semi-annual check-up without having had blood drawn several days before. Did anyone TELL me to have blood drawn? Of course not -- I was supposed to know.

Had a skin problem. (Still have it.) About three years ago one of the dermatologists asked if it itches. I said "No." He said, "I'll prescribe something for the itching." He then proceeded to prescribe a topical medication to which I had experienced a seriously adverse reaction about a year prior.

I've got a lot more stories. There ain't no partnerin' being done at the VA health centers.

[IRDWalrus]

Not to mention they never follow up with results of tests, x-rays, etc. "I'll call you in a few days" are famous last words.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by IRDWalrus

Not to mention they never follow up with results of tests, x-rays, etc. "I'll call you in a few days" are famous last words.

All too true.

At least four years ago I noticed some irregularity in my heartbeat. Mentioned it to my primary care doc. She had me wear a recording monitor around the clock for two or three days. Never heard another thing about it.

In March of this year, I started feeling very tired and always out of breath, and my heart rate was through the roof, plus faint and irregular. VA doc tinkered with my meds and sent me home. Got worse. Went back, doc tinkered with meds again and sent me home. Worse still. Rinse and repeat. Never got referred to a cardiologist, even though I clearly had a cardiac problem.

Finally I gave up. I'm a senior citizen and I have a Medicare Advantage plan, so I went to a doctor on my plan. They took a look at my numbers and heard the story, and said, "You should be in a hospital. You need a cardiologist right now." They made me an appointment -- for 8:30 the next morning. The cardiologist said I had atrial fibrillation and congestive heart failure. He couldn't believe the VA hadn't diagnosed it years before -- apparently I've had a badly leaking valve for a long time. Cardiologist said the same as the Medicare doc: "You need to be in a hospital, and that's where I'm sending you ... right now." He wanted me to go in straight from his office but I had to make arrangements to board my daughter's dog (she's away at school). But at 08:00 the next morning, I was in the emergency room getting checked in. A week later I had open heart surgery to repair the leaky valve.

All this had to have shown up on the monitor I wore. Nobody at the VA said a thing. For all I know, the box I wore could have been empty or non-functional and they just had me wear it so I'd think they were doing something. They treat test results like classified information -- "I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you."

[44 AMP]

The VA appears to be the American version of the old Russian joke about communist workers. "they pretend to pay us, so we pretend to work".

The VA workers DO get paid, and they pretend to work....

I've been saying it for years..."if you think government run health care is a good thing, look at the VA!"


The sad thing is that there are competent people who do care in the VA. Just not enough of them to overcome the system that has evolved...

[mag1911]

I'm a disabled veteran and have gone to the VA for about 40 years.

It was a nightmare in the beginning. They always scheduled twice as many patients as they could possibly see that day probably to look busy. If you weren't there in line when it opened you didn't get seen, even with an appointment. The staff was indifferent about what was wrong with you and what they could/would do about it.

It's been better the past 10 years or so I believe mainly because so many WWII/Korea vets have died they have more staff than patients. When I go nowadays all the parking lots are full of employee vehicles but veteran parking is less than 10% of the available spaces maybe even less than 5%. Overcrowding might be coming back due to the Middle East wars but I haven't noticed it yet in the clinic I go to.

I will say I've not had too much trouble with the medical staff lately. Most of the big problems come from the administrative side. I got a letter once saying they'd had a warrant issued for my arrest with the US Marshals Service. I had to go down in person and talk to the Assistant to the Hospital Director to straighten that out. Somebody had checked/unchecked a box on my computer record that made it look like I owed them money when I didn't so she just checked/unchecked the box. I told the lady be sure to cancel the warrant. She said, "We don't really do that, we just send out the letters saying we did." After my next appointment the box got checked/unchecked again and I was right back in there. It stopped after the second time.

I got a few of the "Do you ever feel like..." questions when I started but not since then. I do get some touchy-feely questions occasionally mostly dealing with depression it seems. I suppose that's the new thing to get funding. I've never been asked any firearm questions, not yet anyway.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by mag1911

I got a few of the "Do you ever feel like..." questions when I started but not since then. I do get some touchy-feely questions occasionally mostly dealing with depression it seems. I suppose that's the new thing to get funding. I've never been asked any firearm questions, not yet anyway.

You don't have to be asked firearms questions. Tell them you feel depressed and unhappy with your life, and see what happens ...

Look -- there is a [real or perceived] issue with veterans committing suicide and/or acting out violently, supposedly as a result of PTSD. The .gov has been widely criticized for not "doing more" to address this "crisis." I admit and agree that it's a problem, but the VA doesn't have the resources or the skills to address the problem appropriately, so they have adopted a typical .gov one-size-fits-all approach: Screen everyone for signs of depression (whether or not it's related to PTSD), and treat everyone who admits to ever having felt sad like a walking time bomb. So it's very likely that anyone who ever says, "Yeah, maybe a little" when asked if they feel depressed today is VERY likely to be reported to NICS and become a prohibited person. No formal diagnosis, no adjudication, just innuendo from an "authoritative source." And it's like the terrorist no-fly list ... once you're on it, it's nearly impossible to get off it.

If you go to the VA, be careful what you tell them. If you're sad because you just had to have your faithful dog put down ... DON'T TELL THEM.

[indie_rocker]

This is so sad but so very true. I've only been going to the VA for about a year & a half and have figured this out already. Whether the threat to our firearms is real or perceived doesn't matter. What does matter is that most veterans are not honest with their VA healthcare providers because we don't trust them!

[44 AMP]

This is just an example, so take it for what its worth...

About a decade ago, a co-worker came to me and said her husband had to sell his guns, and would I help her do it. He was a veteran, with some rather serious medical issues (I have no idea about mental issues, if any).

Apparently the VA had some concerns, what they told him was, that if he wanted to continue to receive treatment, he had to get rid of any guns, swords, or bows in his house.

I can't say if this was part of any program or policy, or what, all I do know is that is what they told him, and he wanted to comply. (it is possible the reason was specific to his case, I just don't know)

He had an 8mm rifle and a 12ga pump. I gave him more than fair market for the rifle (WWII Czech VZ 24 in excellent condition) and gave them the name of someone who might want the pumpgun, to help them out.

I would like to point out that PTSD is a very vague and open ended "diagnosis", and while the push today to classify everyone that way may be catching a few people who would otherwise "fall through the cracks", it is also shoveling a lot of undeserving people down the loss of rights poop chute. It is putting people who are already in a tough situation in a worse one....IMHO

[mag1911]

"Originally Posted by mag1911
I got a few of the "Do you ever feel like..." questions when I started but not since then. I do get some touchy-feely questions occasionally mostly dealing with depression it seems. I suppose that's the new thing to get funding. I've never been asked any firearm questions, not yet anyway.

You don't have to be asked firearms questions. Tell them you feel depressed and unhappy with your life, and see what happens ..."

Even 40 years ago I knew better than to tell the VA anything they could use against me. In those days probably anybody with a combat MOS got the questions due to the "baby killer" media frenzy of the time.

It's not just the VA doing this. A friend applied for Social Security Disability a few years back and was told he had to dispose of all firearms before the government doctor reviewing his case would sign his form.

[44 AMP]

And, it's not just the VA that has been pushing the "no guns for anyone" mantra, nor is it a recent thing.

Some of these people are really sneaky. Example: a govt subcontractor provides a "health & safety risk assesment" survey. A couple of pages of questions. Questions about work, safety practices, and general lifestyle choices.

Do you drive within 5mph of the speed limit? Do you wear a seat belt? mostly that kind of thing. Only ONE question even mentioned violence, and it was "have you, or anyone in your immediate family been in a physical fight in the past year?"

NOT ONE SINGLE QUESTION mentioning guns, or hunting, or anything relating to that, etc.

When we got the results back ( a few weeks), one of their "recommendations" to reduce the risk in our lives was "avoid handguns" (this is exactly what they said).

I was furious. Not simply because they were bashing guns, but because of the way they did it. Very clearly a preconceived bias. I went to my supervisor, my complaint was since they didn't ask even ONE question about guns, and showed such a clear bias in their results, how could we trust them with the results from all the rest of their survey?

This went up the chain, and I am happy to report that, once, in this small battle, we did, sort of win. Upstairs agreed that the bias in that area did call all the rest of their "results" into question. That contractor did not get renewed. Not much, but at least it was something.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

This went up the chain, and I am happy to report that, once, in this small battle, we did, sort of win. Upstairs agreed that the bias in that area did call all the rest of their "results" into question. That contractor did not get renewed. Not much, but at least it was something.

Well done, Sir.

"Think globally, act locally." It works for us as well as for the greenies. If each "gunnie" would take on just one such skirmish, think what the combined result might be.

[mag1911]

Thought I'd provide an update about my VA visit this week:

No firearms questions. A few about depression, was I homeless, did I feel I lived in a safe environment, was I in any pain, did I understand my medications and a couple more I don't recall.

Believe it or not, they've removed the Veteran Patient Parking Only signs close to the entrance. I had to drive around a couple parking lots to find a space.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by mag1911

No firearms questions. A few about depression, was I homeless, did I feel I lived in a safe environment, was I in any pain, did I understand my medications and a couple more I don't recall.

Those are loaded questions, because they regard the wrong answers as triggers -- especially the depression one. Remember, they are comatting a "wave" of veteran suicides. Go ahead -- thell them you feel depressed and see what happens.

Believe it or not, they've removed the Veteran Patient Parking Only signs close to the entrance. I had to drive around a couple parking lots to find a space.

They've done the same thing at the VA hospital where I go. What used to be the patient lot near the front entrance is now reserved for "valet" parking. The only other lot on the site is a single, HUGE lot from most parts of which it's at least a half mile walk to an obscure, rear staff entrance. When I went there last week for a blood test, that lot was blocked off with a sign reading "LOT FULL." No indication of where a patient or visitor could park -- which at least was honest, since the OLD main parking lot at the bottom of the hill has been taken over by "portable" office trailers.

I ignored the sign, drove around the lot for about fifteen minutes, and caught a spot as someone was leaving. What they should do is lease an off-site lot and assign that for staff parking. The hospital owns three mini-buses and at least two Greyhound size buses. They were all parked in the lot behind mountains of snow. Those could be used to shuttle staff between the hospital and a satellite parking lot, freeing up the on-site parking for patients and visitors.

[MattShlock]

44 AMP -- love those posts and efforts. Thank you!

And Aguila Blanca, that's some story -- I'm glad you're still with us and that seems almost dumb luck. Those SOB's!

[Gunplummer]

The last couple years when going to the VA I was asked numerous times if I was suicidal. The nurse would slip it in a couple times and the Doc would too. There is some kind of 24 hour suicide hotline. This came about because of the high percentage of suicide among Vets. Maybe there is a lot of gun related accidents in Vet's homes?

[tirod]

Firearms are one of the preferred methods of suicide. So is locking yourself in a garage with your car running, or taking certain medications - which might even be prescribed.

The anti gun bias is evident, the medical profession is "full of it."

Private physicians do have a need to know about your potential disposition, if just to cover themselves. The insurance company is going to ask if they thought you were despondent and what did anybody do to prevent?

Family and spouse might, too. It's meant to be helpful, for some reason people who don't consider suicide think it's a bad thing. And for those who do see it as a potential solution, the overall consequences aren't usually well thought out.

Ya know, you might change your mind about it a week later. But - you can't.

As for trying to cross match gun owners in the population, it could be done easily enough thru hunting license purchases and applying for a CCW. If you were one of the 20 million + trained in the service you'd "be on the list." After all, you were trained to operate a real live full auto assault rifle. So it's not the VA wanting to know if you are a gun owner - every step of the process gets you on that list.

You have to be well informed up front and work at it to not be a known gun owner. Think about it.

[rebs]

I have a couple friends that use the VA hospital here and they say it is top notch. They go there for medical, dental, hearing, vision and get their prescriptions filled. They say they never had a problem and have never been asked anything about owning firearms.
I went there once for dental work back in the 70's one time, I got up out of the chair and never went back. The dentist was a complete azzwad.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by tirod

Private physicians do have a need to know about your potential disposition, if just to cover themselves. The insurance company is going to ask if they thought you were despondent and what did anybody do to prevent?

If what you say is correct -- it shouldn't be.

If I go to a doctor because I have a cold and a fever, I'm there to be treated for a cold and a fever. Whether or not I may be feeling sad because my pet dog just died is irrelevant. It seems to me that, once a doctor starts poking into things that are extraneous to his/her area of expertise and unrelated to the reason for the consultation, he/she is opening him/herself up to liability far more than preventing it.

Let's say I go to a GP because I have a fever and a runny nose. The PA who sees me before the doctor asks if I feel depressed. I'm tired of the sniffles and the fever (accompanied by a throbbing headache), so I say "Yes" and the PA dutifully checks a box on the form. Then the doctor comes in, listens to my lungs, determines that I don't have pneumonia (which was my worry), and sends me on my way with advice to take aspirin, drink more water, and take lots of Vitamin C.

A week later I find out that my wife has been having an affair with the guy I thought of as my best friend. I am devastated, I can't deal with the double betrayal, so I kill myself.

So some lawyer for somebody (maybe my life insurance company) pokes around and finds out I visited a doctor a week before I offed myself. They get the doctors' records and see the box for "Depression" checked. They sue the doctor, because he "knew [the victim] was depressed and failed to take appropriate action." To protect against this, even if you explain that you're just down because you're (a) tired of the cold and (b) your faithful dog died yesterday, the doctors try to play psychologist, or they refer you to a psychologist or psychiatrist, or they report you to NICS as being unsuitable to have access to firearms.

All that for what? A GP isn't a psychologist or a psychiatrist -- he or she is a General Practitioner. Treating me for a cold doesn't require their getting inside my head. Wouldn't life be simpler without that silly check box on the form? Then, if I kill myself a week later and my insurance company comes around because they learned I saw a doctor a week before, the doctor can just tell them I came in because I had a cold and wanted to be sure it wasn't pneumonia -- which it wasn't. End of story, and no check box to suggest the doctor ignored something he/she isn't qualified to deal with anyway.

[44 AMP]

for some reason people who don't consider suicide think it's a bad thing.

I believe the main reason most consider suicide a bad thing is religious training. Christianity has taught for nearly a couple thousand years that suicide is a mortal sin. Not only is it "throwing away" God's gift of life, but it is the one sin you cannot ask forgiveness for.

Note that in our laws, suicide is NOT a crime (kind of pointless to punish the dead), but attempted suicide is.

As to the "Doc" asking questions they have no business asking, I agree in principle, but one must look at their side of the street, as well. Its not all just because of an individual or institutional bias against gun ownership. The bias is there, absolutely, but its is not the sole reason. The real valid reason, which that bias is wrapped in like a "cloak of invisibility" is actual concern for our health.

People lie. People lie to their doctors. Sometimes on purpose. Be aware that the docs notes include MORE than just your answers to their questions. They include notes on your physical appearance, AND your perceived mental state at the time of the visit.

And these notes (which you have no control over, or input on) DO form part of their diagnosis. These notes, which can be entirely the personal opinion of the DOC (nurse, PA, etc) become part of the "professional medical opinion", and are accepted as true and accurate without any independent review or confirmation.

Suppose, for instance, you are up in the woods cutting firewood. You've been camping a couple days, working getting the winter wood cut. You drop a piece of log on your foot. Hurts like heck, swells up, trouble walking, etc. You head to the Doc/emergency room to see if its broken.

You show up in dirty, torn clothes (work clothes to you), maybe you haven't had a bath/shower in a couple days (or more?), you hurt, you are not your usual charming self, and not willing to suffer fools gladly.

You get ticked when they ask if you own guns, or are depressed, etc. (After all its none of their business, what the heck does that have to do with my FOOT! for pete's sake!, etc.)

What might get put in those notes that you don't see?
"patient does not exhibit normal interest in care of appearance."
"patient became agitated and uncooperative when asked questions".
etc.

Things like this, taken alone (and they will be by anyone/everyone looking at the record, because the record does not explain that your side of the story). could "indicate the presence of mental illness".

Reality doesn't matter, their perception of reality can become YOUR reality, without your input or control.

Those "cracks" in the system that everyone talks about the truly mad slipping through, can get some of us who aren't mentally ill stuck in. Because of someone else's opinion.

It shouldn't happen, but it does, to some people, sometimes. Actual errors I can accept, but this kind of thing can be made to happen by people more concerned with their personal views of what is needed to protect society than with the care they are being paid to give their patients.

(sure this situation is hypothetical, and a "worst case", but it is not outside the realm of possibility)

[HiBC]

IMO,the greatest cadre we have for the preservation of shooting is our Veterans.
Yes,people do come home from war with all sorts of wounds and scars...but then again,our post-war Veterans have done a whole lot to build the USA.
One little example,the 10th Mountain Vets who built the ski industry.

I'm not a Veteran.

Today,with a prevailing absence of the Father,a lack of locale Uncles and Grandparents ,older males to assist a young man to "grow up",there are plenty of 30+,40+ yr old folks who are in adult bodies,but not grown ups.

They have the emotions of a child or adolescent or a teen.

There are a number of ways Life can "grow a person up".

IMO,Military Service generally transforms folks to adulthood.If nothing else,a Vet knows "Life is not all about me"They have a proven capacity to overcome emotion,including fear of death,and function.And they might endure death and destruction for the soldier beside them.They know life is not fair.Delayed gratification skill is required.
Parenthood can also be a process to transform people to adults.
The shooting sports can be a means to pass something on,from older adults to those becoming adult.Trust,responsibility,discipline.Those go along with a young person learning to shoot,if it is done right.

I see plenty of folk who are non-Veterans who have achieved years,but not maturity.These are the folks who cannot see themselves as owning the self control to be armed.They still think their woulded inner child is cuddly,rather than a tantrum controlling a 200 lb body.


They project their own fears onto other folks.Recall the journalist/media tendency to project a monstrous stigma on "The Vietnam Ex Green Beret"

If I had to bet on who had the discipline,self control,maturity,wisdom,and ability to cope with hardship..a Veteran ex Special Forces troop would be top of the list.But,those with Tyranny in mind might have reason to discredit that character.

One more thing to consider:Certainly we have empathy or the teachers at Columbine or Sandy Hook.They experienced horrific trauma.
A roadside bomb goes off,or an ambush or sniper..our troops experience similar trauma.
But they do not have the luxury of the appropriate care those teachers might get.
Our troops have a Mission.They Soldier on.They load up what is left of their buddies,or themselves,and function.The next day,they do it again,and again.
John Prine wrote a song.Bruised Orange..."My heart's in the icehouse"
There is a certain amount of "stuff" that gets locked in a box.Frozen in a block of ice.It does not really go away.That would be "delayed stress"

Maybe something like holding a new born child melts that block of ice...and a man ,or other folks,may not understand why holding a baby makes him crumble .


Trigger locks?.For myself,monkeying around inside a trigger guard,particularly under stress,seems like a bad idea.

[R.Ph. 380]

I was cleaning up the reloading room recently and came up with a goodly number of gun locks. Since I have no use for them, I took them to a friend who owns a Pawn Shop. The ATF requires each and every gun in the shop to always have a trigger lock and to go out the door with one on them. Figured I could save him from having to buy a few anyway.

Bill

[indie_rocker]

I'm the original poster of this thread. Just received another letter from the same VA. Again asking about gun locks. Why is the VA so concerned about the quality of my firearm security? I'm not a conspiracy theorist or anything like that. But they just seem to be overreaching their boundaries with this campaign, or whatever you want to call it.

uploadfromtaptalk1466726682559.jpg

[TXAZ]

I'd submit a slightly different spin: The current administration has showed numerous instances where information was misused or turned against citizens. Further, it's not clear the letters indicate any limits on their use of collected information.
As such, I would not consider providing any information nor response.

(You could sell them on ebay for someone that wants to chance it

[Brian Pfleuger]

There is no way on God's Green Earth I would respond to that letter. No way, no how. They don't have any valid reason for that inquiry.

Beyond that, if you really wanted one, gun locks are literally free and about as common as stones. I've seen gun shows with buckets of them for the taking. Probably any of your friends who own guns will have a 1/2 dozen they don't use (unless they're like me and just throw them away). Hell, I'll mail you one if you want it. My dad has several.