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Old June 16, 2001, 10:35 PM   #1
IZZY
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Sar-3 Incident

My buddy called me up tonight.

Told me that when he was out on the range his SAR-3 in .223 was great...putting a nice group together Untill...

Ka-Boom

The top cover blew off, put a chunk of metal into a shooter fifteen feet to his side. Fortunately the guy was able to tend to it himself( guess he did not have insurance/money). My freind is shooken up a bit but O.K.

He was using S&B ammo brass case. He says that theres a case still stuck in the chamber, says the back off the case was blown off...

He wants to know... What would cause this? Has anybody had simmilar experiances with an SAR-3 or S&B?

My guess is it could have been a tripple charge, a slam fire is less likely cause the case is all the way in the chamber and only the back blown off...this is just my guess....
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Old June 16, 2001, 11:08 PM   #2
Keeper
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There was a post on AR15.com about problems with S&B ammo. I ordered some from J&G Sales but I am sending it back unopened due to reports like your friends.
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Old June 17, 2001, 12:24 AM   #3
IZZY
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Oh crud....more problems like that! I thought this was going to be a rare event.

I have steel case S&B in .223 picked up a few years ago as "emergency fare", now I'm worried about using at a stinking range, let alone defense.

Any body else have these problems?
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Old June 17, 2001, 12:33 AM   #4
Oleg Volk
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I found steel case S&B to be reliable enough back when I used 500rds of it in a Mini14. Not sure about newer brass cased 223.

I do find their pistol ammo consistent and accurate enough to use in 32/9/45 in preference to other brands (tir with Fiocchi in 32)
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Old June 17, 2001, 12:43 AM   #5
Starsfan
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Yep, I'm in the same boat with you guys.

I bought a couple cases of S&B in .223 for my AR. The first three hundred rounds went off without a hitch. Then I pulled the trigger, and boom. Bolt locked back and would NOT move! I couldn't get the rifle apart to have a look, so I took it to the nearest gunsmith. The primer had blown out the rear of the round, and lodged on top of the bolt carrier.

I still have tons of this ammo, but am afraid to shoot any of it. Funny thing is, I have shot over 1,500 rounds of their 9mm and .40 without a single problem.

Sorry about your buddies experience. When it comes to AK's, I've always stuck with the steel cased stuff.

*starsfan*
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Old June 17, 2001, 12:55 AM   #6
radom
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the 5.56 in a AK is a low budget modification and the gun was not designed for the added presure of the round. Plus the headspace seems to be over long in most guns so brass cases do not hold together like the steel cases do in them. Seems the opinion is shoot steel case only in them just to be safe.
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Old June 17, 2001, 01:22 AM   #7
IZZY
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WOW,

Thanks for the heads up. My buddy (against my advice) wants to return the rifle monday and get a new one (sar-3 in .223)!

I will do my best to steer him away from the combonation of S&B and the SAR-3???.

I did a check on ar15.com ( Thanks Keeper!) there are a bunch of folks in the ammo section who have had poped primers, split cases and even some "Ka-boom's" with S&B "109"ammo.
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Starsfan,

Is the bad ammo steel or brass case? Or am I just fantacizing that makes a diffrence!
-----------------------------------------------------

This is an important thread! ( safty wise) Thanks for all the replies!
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Old June 17, 2001, 01:29 AM   #8
Starsfan
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IZZY,

The .223 I bought is the "blue box" BRASS cased ammo!

Before buying the .223, I had heard nothing but GOOD things about S&B ammo.
Live and learn I guess!

Safe shootin' to ya'.

*starfan*
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Old June 17, 2001, 05:55 AM   #9
AC
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I had not known S&B .223 was causing problems, but I blew a primer on some 7.62x54R S&B that scared me enough to pull the bullets and weigh charges on the twenty remaining. Charges varied by several grains but apparently none were like the single overpressure round.

Fortunately this was near the end of shooting up the 100 rds purchased for the brass. BTW the brass causes problems when it is reloaded too--primer pockets are too shallow.

So it sounds like this kaboom is more an ammo than a gun problem
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Old June 17, 2001, 06:03 AM   #10
SouthernShark
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Its the ammo and not the gun...

I've put cases of .223 cal through my SAR-3. I've shot Winchester and mainly Wolf. I've never had a problem with either. The Winchester brass shoots great in the SAR-3. And I strongly advise it. All this talk of AK's not made for .223 cal presure is complete nonsense. There is no data to support this position. Given that the AK has a steel frame, I wouldn't worry about shooting .223 cal through it all day long. None of my alluminum frame AR's have blown apart yet.

And of course, the Polish Tantal and Beryl, the Russian AK-100x series, the Finnish Sako (formerly Valmet), the Chinese Norinco, and the Isreali Galil are all AK's which have been converted to .223 cal. There are no reports of problems with the ammo.

As for this situation, I'd say there is a serious problem with the ammo. Bad ammo can blow up any gun. Some of you may have seen the M1a which was blown apart by a bad 7.62x51mm round. The point is that bad ammo can blow up your gun.

I'll be staying away from S&B. Winchester, Federal, Remington, or Wolf is the way to go (Wolf sucks but doesn't blow up).


-SS
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Old June 17, 2001, 11:36 AM   #11
IZZY
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Southern Shark,

I think you are 100% correct safety wise. The concern was chamber headspacing...but other than having my buddy cheack the headspace, this has been eliminated as the main culprit. You are also correct to say that 5.45 & 5.56 are extreemly simmilar presure wise. So my original guess of a way -overcharge is the problem.

Yet, my Russian freinds would always say the ak47 was better than the 74...cause the 74 would last longer due to lower pressure...not a safety issue, but a durability one.
-----------------

Sarsfan- I guess i'll take a chance as the ammo problems seem to have started with the brass case lots. Thanks amigo!
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Old June 17, 2001, 11:41 AM   #12
IZZY
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Douh! I ment to write " the 47 lasts longer due to lower pressure"

I dont think the durability is as much of an issue with the milled revievers vrs. the stamped ones, my Russian buddies told me the Galil was better than the Russian- assuming the dust cover pin isnn't lost!
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Old June 17, 2001, 02:34 PM   #13
SouthernShark
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Kind of off topic, but I really don't like milled receivers. The only countries that still make them are Bulgaria, and maybe Isreal. Although Isreal is dumping the Galil for the AR (which has an aluminum receiver). I doubt that if durablity was that different then all the other countries would have made the change.


-SS
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Old June 17, 2001, 03:07 PM   #14
IZZY
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Make that dumped. Very few units have Galils ( of any kind) any more. The m-16 purchase was one of economy, and a big mistake.

Now they have a few more new wepons, Magar ( .30 carbine) ,and the Tabor (.223) bullpup.

My (american) buddy also told me the ak-74 has a shorter lifespan than the 47. This may only be due to the barrel life, but locking lugs and reciever sress could be a factor as well?


Any how I'm kinda off topic here.

We have narrowed the problem down to S&B .223 ammo with brass case and Bi-metal bullet.
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Old June 17, 2001, 03:45 PM   #15
Bulldog
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I'm wondering if S&B might have had a bad batch of ammo - Kinda like Winchester and their Q3131, or whatever it was called.

I've shot a few thousand rounds of S&B steel and brass cased .223 (55gr) without a problem.

Then again, it only takes one bad round to ruin your day, I reckon.
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Old June 17, 2001, 06:37 PM   #16
scoops
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for AKs stick with origonal cal. 7.62x39
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