Holster design for comment, IWB.

Jim March · July 14, 2002, 09:38 PM

The idea here is I can make blanks at home, take 'em into the field, hand-fit and tweak 'em as needed.

Price range would be down near FOBUS territory ($30?), with maybe a $5 surcharge for cocked'n'locked types because I'd be hand-fitting the safety. Edges will be properly finished, overall "alignment" of the various layers would be good, but not absolutely perfect...but hey, they're for CONCEALMENT, the absolute customization to your gun and your draw stroke/grip angle is something some people might want over something that looks like it was pressed out of a machine stamp, no?

If this gets big, I can have blanks made up commercially, still operate a "fitting business" in the NorCal area, and maybe sell blanks to other people who want to do a "local kydex foundry" business

. Or just license a franchise to the concept at a couple bux a pop.

Comments? There's also that concept for something more like a shoulder rig, for really big guns, but that's a much smaller market.

Greybeard · July 15, 2002, 07:59 AM

I like the concept. If ya gonna be keeping a list of interested parties for onesey-twosey orders, put me down for at least a j-frame.

Dfariswheel · July 15, 2002, 05:42 PM

As a holster maker, I really like this idea.
One part of the Kydex idea was they were to be cheaper than the leather, but better fitting, thinner, and lighter than nylon.
This cheap part hasn't happened because of the fitting issue, and no really big holster maker like Bianchi or Galco has pushed Kydex.

The Kydex makers mostly seem to be small custom maker's who only sell high-end versions, with all the bells and whistles. One reason for this is the difficulty of properly placing the rivets and other hardwear. The proper design of the belt attachment also causes problems, (and higher cost).
Your design avoids all this, and is somewhat of a throw-back to the original Kydex holster the "Snick" design of the early 80's, which also used no hardware.

I think you could build a nice business selling these by mail.
You could sell pre-fitted holsters, or a "blank" with fitting instructions at a lesser price. Advertising in the gun magazines could bring in quite a batch of orders.

I think you should pursue this.

Jim March · July 15, 2002, 06:35 PM

As to costs, the economics are pretty good. A 4ftx8ft sheet of .060" costs me $63. That's enough to fit at least 40 - 50 J-Frame-sized guns!

At that point, you're talking $1,500 in value (at $30 a pop) out of $63 in materials. And an average time-to-build in the half hour range.

The first protos so far have proven to be extremely functional - testing included a stainless SP101. I'm still working on technique/cosmetic issues, but right now I've got the function down pat. Concealment properties are unmatches, with the belt uncovered by kydex and the shirt can be tucked down to the full depth of the holster.

Mind you, if I tried to translate this to some sort out outside-the-belt rig, it wouldn't work - held in your hand, the whole thing with gun in it looks "jiggly" and unstable. It's not until it's in the pants and belted that it becomes 100% functional...so this is purely an IWB process.

Heck, that's OK, concealed carry reform is what I *do*, it's a perfect matchup

.

Is there a market for holsters that don't look as good as say, a Fobus, but work better and are tuned for you, and can support oddball guns not on the usual holstermaker lists?

Plus there's that "1911 safety tweak"...

blades67 · July 15, 2002, 06:43 PM

I like the idea. Do you have any jpegs of one of your protypes?

Jim March · July 15, 2002, 08:24 PM

Right now, it's too early for pics. I have a better tool for edgework coming in a day or two, by this weekend I'll be able to do "beta testing", having a couple people come over for free holsters and with digital cameras along.

Got the three beta testers lined up, sorry guys

.

After that, we'll see.

Waitone · July 15, 2002, 09:34 PM

Seems to me the concept could be positioned as a way for the gun owner to experiment with a variety of hoster configurations and carry options before spending the really big bucks.

Jim March · July 15, 2002, 09:48 PM

Well ya, except the comfort level is very high, because it's custom-fitted "for you". Then there's that 1911 safety issue...only a hand-made-for-that-gun holster could possibly have that. I'm also "shaping" the final mold with my hands pressed down on the 3" foam rubber, such that the whole thing "curves slightly" with your body.

The only "issue" here is looks...which, on a full-bore-stealth concealment rig, won't be an issue to some, I'd hope?

I'm considering a "high end variant", in which the entire holster is put into a chamoise leather "bag" somehow. But that would still limit the amount of shirt-tuck you'd get. I'm also wondering if I can somehow stick a 1/16th inch thick sheet of neoprene or other soft rubber to the inside...might be too bulky on a revolver, but...on a heavy slidegun, might be just the ticket.

ponderponderponder...

GunGeek · July 16, 2002, 04:45 AM

Jim, since the BBQ (other thread) has been planed for september I will be out of the state. Before that I would like to meet up with you for a custom holster, are you ever in the Fremont or Milpitas area?

Jim March · July 16, 2002, 01:07 PM

Once I get going with this, it'd be cool to find firing ranges/gun stores that would allow me to set up a "holster day", doing up custom rigs as a special event complete with web announcements. The gun shop/range would get a cut, and would get people drawn in.

I'm not ready to make such presentations to gun shop owners, but I will be soon. And there's a couple of South Bay places like that I intend to feel out.

GunGeek · July 16, 2002, 02:06 PM

Jim,

If you end up doing anything before Aug 22nd please let me know. Even if I have to take a drive it will be worth it.

**4V50 Gary** · July 16, 2002, 02:23 PM

Jim, don't overlook the market for holsters for women. As you know, their anatomy is different and what's comfortable for a guy in terms of a holster may be miserable for a gal.

Jim March · July 16, 2002, 04:05 PM

Sigh. I know.

I don't think IWB will work on a lady? (scratches head) Unless it's SOB, and that's dangerous.

Plus they wear a whole lot of different clothes types...I'm pretty firmly in the "wear the same gun the same way, every day" camp. That way, when trouble comes, there's no guesswork.

How can a lady apply that? A specialized, "feminized" fanny pack with very quick access and a kydex core? Done right, it'd be as fast as IWB. All the current choices are leather or cordura, hardly anything they'll wear formally.

Or...heck, take the existing basic mold as above, and with two strips of "belly band material" adapt it to a thigh holster for the ladies into dresses/skirts. But even the most fem of gals wear pants at least some of the time, 'specially in the cold.

SAWBONES · July 17, 2002, 03:43 PM

Is this a "tuckable" holster, then?

The diagram makes it appear that the shirt is tucked over the gun but beneath the kydex, but I assume it's really in between the layers of kydex formed in the first and second folds, right?

If that's correct, it looks like a functional design, and I'll be interested to be involved in testing prototypes.

Best.

Scott Evans · July 17, 2002, 04:10 PM

Nice set-up Jim.

Jim March · July 17, 2002, 07:48 PM

Sawbones: that's exactly how it works. It's an "extremely deep tuck" all the way to the bottom of the holster if you have enough shirt.

Everything is adjustable when you mold...the ride height and to some degree the gun's angle is controlled by where you do "fold 3" - the rest of the gun's angle position is controlled by where the gun gets placed before any folds happen. Fold 4 is a variable based on the average belt width...the very small j--hooks at the bottom don't need to be right up against the belt, so long as they catch on the belt on draw and prevent the gun popping out still holstered

.

Scott: that's VERY high praise indeed coming from a master

.

Do YOU think there's a market for something less-than-cosmetically-perfect, but absolutely functional and adjusted to any gun and carry preferences like this?

Greybeard · July 17, 2002, 10:35 PM

Jim -

A thirty-something female friend recently gave me a few details of a "ladies concealment" project she did for a (speech?) class back in college. At that time, among various other methods, she had obtained a sample of a specialty "bra holster" available at an upscale ladies store in Dallas. A recent search for "bra holsters" on internet came up virtually void of anything currently readily available. The ladies here may disagree, but it seems there might be a place for an adaptation with a smooth "underarm" design that would clip over a (heavy) bra strap ... particularly for thin semis or airweight j-frames ...

After responding early on this thread and thinking of "custom concept", I had the wife take a picture of holster/gun placement angle and depth that feels best on my skinny act (6'/160). Maybe by the time I get the rest of that roll of film taken and processed, you'll be "in production" and I can send you an "order". I think the design that may work for me IWB might just also be worthy of a little "real world field testing"

per the above ...

Blackhawk · July 18, 2002, 06:24 AM

Jim,

What's happening with your previous holster design?

Jim March · July 18, 2002, 11:15 AM

Blackhawk: that one will be harder to make, and suitable more for "really big stuff" past what you can fit IWB. 4" GP100s or Vaqueros and such. More of a specialized market - I'm gonna start with this, but I haven't forgotten about that critter.

Oh, and the other design will need *heavy* kydex - .125" grade, I think.

braindead0 · August 1, 2002, 08:27 AM

Have you thought about selling plans and instructions? I was just thinking that there's a guy out here who custom fits leather holsters at gun shows.... Wonder if he'd be interested in "The Jim March Holster Fitting System" ;-)

I just don't expect to get out to California anytime soon, and I doubt you have a 2" Windicator handy for fitting.

Correia · August 1, 2002, 08:50 AM

Jim one thing that you can work from a marketing perspective is that your holsters can be made to fit any gun out there. For all of those guys with odd guns that they like, with almost no holster options available. Ultrastar, CZ52, etc.

Onslaught · August 1, 2002, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Do YOU think there's a market for something less-than-cosmetically-perfect, but absolutely functional and adjusted to any gun and carry preferences like this?

Jim, I know "YOU" wasn't directed openly to all of us, but...
If it's both extremely comfortable and extremely affordable, and works extremely well, then I personally don't care WHAT it LOOKS like... Heck, I don't think too many people have ever accused Kydex of being "pretty" anyway

You know, once you get this rolling, I can see you adding fitted, inexpensive pocket holsters and maybe some DEEP concealment IWB's for not only the mainstream mouse-guns, but the ones that nobody make's quality stuff for. I personally would REALLY like to have an IWB type holster for my P32 that works similar to the "belt-clip"... all the way below the belt-line but accessible in a hurry. You'd need a lot less Kydex for the mouse-guns too.

Blackhawk · August 1, 2002, 09:58 AM

Quote:

If it's both extremely comfortable and extremely affordable, and works extremely well,

Then I think anybody would be extremely interested even if they don't have a CHL or a gun to their name!

Jim March · August 1, 2002, 03:55 PM

Actual photos of various "Mark2" series pieces done free for local friends is up:

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/holsters.html

In a couple shots, you can see me making 'em.

The "Mark3" series is in R&D, and should be a lot better. Better edges, the small kydex areas that show will be colored, and I think I can eliminate "fold 4" allowing for any size belt and an easier time taking the whole holster on and off.

I can also do knives, as you'll see.

Onslaught: I can do *any* "depth" you want, although I think you'll find that will the "deep tuck of the shirt" this rig allows, you'll be able to keep most of the grip above the beltline for a faster draw. I can also do whatever grip angle you want.

The guy that has that 1911 3" rig pictured tested some draws with the shirt tucked behind the holster rather than covering the gun, and declared it fast enough for "carry gun competition" matches.

Anyways. The Mark3s should be very close to the final for-sale-versus-free standard I'm looking for.

Jim March · August 1, 2002, 07:23 PM

There's another thread on these here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...postid=1108756

Scott Evans got curious and made one up just as a test, and posted pics

. Kewl. I like some aspects of mine better but I gotta learn to do edges right!

July 14, 2002, 09:38 PM	#1
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Holster design for comment, IWB. The idea here is I can make blanks at home, take 'em into the field, hand-fit and tweak 'em as needed. Price range would be down near FOBUS territory ($30?), with maybe a $5 surcharge for cocked'n'locked types because I'd be hand-fitting the safety. Edges will be properly finished, overall "alignment" of the various layers would be good, but not absolutely perfect...but hey, they're for CONCEALMENT, the absolute customization to your gun and your draw stroke/grip angle is something some people might want over something that looks like it was pressed out of a machine stamp, no? If this gets big, I can have blanks made up commercially, still operate a "fitting business" in the NorCal area, and maybe sell blanks to other people who want to do a "local kydex foundry" business . Or just license a franchise to the concept at a couple bux a pop. Comments? There's also that concept for something more like a shoulder rig, for really big guns, but that's a much smaller market. __________________ Jim March

July 15, 2002, 07:59 AM	#2
Greybeard Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2002 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 640	I like the concept. If ya gonna be keeping a list of interested parties for onesey-twosey orders, put me down for at least a j-frame. __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

July 15, 2002, 06:35 PM	#4
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	As to costs, the economics are pretty good. A 4ftx8ft sheet of .060" costs me $63. That's enough to fit at least 40 - 50 J-Frame-sized guns! At that point, you're talking $1,500 in value (at $30 a pop) out of $63 in materials. And an average time-to-build in the half hour range. The first protos so far have proven to be extremely functional - testing included a stainless SP101. I'm still working on technique/cosmetic issues, but right now I've got the function down pat. Concealment properties are unmatches, with the belt uncovered by kydex and the shirt can be tucked down to the full depth of the holster. Mind you, if I tried to translate this to some sort out outside-the-belt rig, it wouldn't work - held in your hand, the whole thing with gun in it looks "jiggly" and unstable. It's not until it's in the pants and belted that it becomes 100% functional...so this is purely an IWB process. Heck, that's OK, concealed carry reform is what I do, it's a perfect matchup . Is there a market for holsters that don't look as good as say, a Fobus, but work better and are tuned for you, and can support oddball guns not on the usual holstermaker lists? Plus there's that "1911 safety tweak"... __________________ Jim March

July 15, 2002, 06:43 PM	#5
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,015	I like the idea. Do you have any jpegs of one of your protypes? __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

July 15, 2002, 08:24 PM	#6
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Right now, it's too early for pics. I have a better tool for edgework coming in a day or two, by this weekend I'll be able to do "beta testing", having a couple people come over for free holsters and with digital cameras along. Got the three beta testers lined up, sorry guys . After that, we'll see. __________________ Jim March

July 15, 2002, 05:42 PM	#3
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 5,415	As a holster maker, I really like this idea. One part of the Kydex idea was they were to be cheaper than the leather, but better fitting, thinner, and lighter than nylon. This cheap part hasn't happened because of the fitting issue, and no really big holster maker like Bianchi or Galco has pushed Kydex. The Kydex makers mostly seem to be small custom maker's who only sell high-end versions, with all the bells and whistles. One reason for this is the difficulty of properly placing the rivets and other hardwear. The proper design of the belt attachment also causes problems, (and higher cost). Your design avoids all this, and is somewhat of a throw-back to the original Kydex holster the "Snick" design of the early 80's, which also used no hardware. I think you could build a nice business selling these by mail. You could sell pre-fitted holsters, or a "blank" with fitting instructions at a lesser price. Advertising in the gun magazines could bring in quite a batch of orders. I think you should pursue this.

July 15, 2002, 09:34 PM	#7
Waitone Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2000 Posts: 2,905	Seems to me the concept could be positioned as a way for the gun owner to experiment with a variety of hoster configurations and carry options before spending the really big bucks. __________________ "Given a choice between good intentions and human nature, I'll go with human nature every time."--Me, 2002.

July 15, 2002, 09:48 PM	#8
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Well ya, except the comfort level is very high, because it's custom-fitted "for you". Then there's that 1911 safety issue...only a hand-made-for-that-gun holster could possibly have that. I'm also "shaping" the final mold with my hands pressed down on the 3" foam rubber, such that the whole thing "curves slightly" with your body. The only "issue" here is looks...which, on a full-bore-stealth concealment rig, won't be an issue to some, I'd hope? I'm considering a "high end variant", in which the entire holster is put into a chamoise leather "bag" somehow. But that would still limit the amount of shirt-tuck you'd get. I'm also wondering if I can somehow stick a 1/16th inch thick sheet of neoprene or other soft rubber to the inside...might be too bulky on a revolver, but...on a heavy slidegun, might be just the ticket. ponderponderponder... __________________ Jim March

July 16, 2002, 04:45 AM	#9
GunGeek Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 288	Jim, since the BBQ (other thread) has been planed for september I will be out of the state. Before that I would like to meet up with you for a custom holster, are you ever in the Fremont or Milpitas area? __________________ The Gun Geek EMCOMM Forum

July 16, 2002, 01:07 PM	#10
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Once I get going with this, it'd be cool to find firing ranges/gun stores that would allow me to set up a "holster day", doing up custom rigs as a special event complete with web announcements. The gun shop/range would get a cut, and would get people drawn in. I'm not ready to make such presentations to gun shop owners, but I will be soon. And there's a couple of South Bay places like that I intend to feel out. __________________ Jim March

July 16, 2002, 02:06 PM	#11
GunGeek Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 288	Jim, If you end up doing anything before Aug 22nd please let me know. Even if I have to take a drive it will be worth it. __________________ The Gun Geek EMCOMM Forum

July 16, 2002, 02:23 PM	#12
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: California Posts: 13,435	Jim, don't overlook the market for holsters for women. As you know, their anatomy is different and what's comfortable for a guy in terms of a holster may be miserable for a gal. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

July 16, 2002, 04:05 PM	#13
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Sigh. I know. I don't think IWB will work on a lady? (scratches head) Unless it's SOB, and that's dangerous. Plus they wear a whole lot of different clothes types...I'm pretty firmly in the "wear the same gun the same way, every day" camp. That way, when trouble comes, there's no guesswork. How can a lady apply that? A specialized, "feminized" fanny pack with very quick access and a kydex core? Done right, it'd be as fast as IWB. All the current choices are leather or cordura, hardly anything they'll wear formally. Or...heck, take the existing basic mold as above, and with two strips of "belly band material" adapt it to a thigh holster for the ladies into dresses/skirts. But even the most fem of gals wear pants at least some of the time, 'specially in the cold. __________________ Jim March

July 17, 2002, 03:43 PM	#14
SAWBONES Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 1999 Location: The third dimension Posts: 645	Is this a "tuckable" holster, then? The diagram makes it appear that the shirt is tucked over the gun but beneath the kydex, but I assume it's really in between the layers of kydex formed in the first and second folds, right? If that's correct, it looks like a functional design, and I'll be interested to be involved in testing prototypes. Best. __________________ "Humani nihil alienum"

July 17, 2002, 04:10 PM	#15
Scott Evans Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 7, 1998 Location: Jacksonville, NC Posts: 1,348	Nice set-up Jim. __________________ “This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine …” MOLON LABE ! I’m a G-CODE holster fan ! www.range5.com

July 17, 2002, 07:48 PM	#16
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Sawbones: that's exactly how it works. It's an "extremely deep tuck" all the way to the bottom of the holster if you have enough shirt. Everything is adjustable when you mold...the ride height and to some degree the gun's angle is controlled by where you do "fold 3" - the rest of the gun's angle position is controlled by where the gun gets placed before any folds happen. Fold 4 is a variable based on the average belt width...the very small j--hooks at the bottom don't need to be right up against the belt, so long as they catch on the belt on draw and prevent the gun popping out still holstered . Scott: that's VERY high praise indeed coming from a master . Do YOU think there's a market for something less-than-cosmetically-perfect, but absolutely functional and adjusted to any gun and carry preferences like this? __________________ Jim March

July 17, 2002, 10:35 PM	#17
Greybeard Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2002 Location: Denton County Texas Posts: 640	Jim - A thirty-something female friend recently gave me a few details of a "ladies concealment" project she did for a (speech?) class back in college. At that time, among various other methods, she had obtained a sample of a specialty "bra holster" available at an upscale ladies store in Dallas. A recent search for "bra holsters" on internet came up virtually void of anything currently readily available. The ladies here may disagree, but it seems there might be a place for an adaptation with a smooth "underarm" design that would clip over a (heavy) bra strap ... particularly for thin semis or airweight j-frames ... After responding early on this thread and thinking of "custom concept", I had the wife take a picture of holster/gun placement angle and depth that feels best on my skinny act (6'/160). Maybe by the time I get the rest of that roll of film taken and processed, you'll be "in production" and I can send you an "order". I think the design that may work for me IWB might just also be worthy of a little "real world field testing" per the above ... __________________ www.dentoncountysports.com A Private Palace for Pistol Proficiency

July 18, 2002, 06:24 AM	#18
Blackhawk Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2001 Posts: 5,049	Jim, What's happening with your previous holster design?

July 18, 2002, 11:15 AM	#19
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Blackhawk: that one will be harder to make, and suitable more for "really big stuff" past what you can fit IWB. 4" GP100s or Vaqueros and such. More of a specialized market - I'm gonna start with this, but I haven't forgotten about that critter. Oh, and the other design will need heavy kydex - .125" grade, I think. __________________ Jim March

August 1, 2002, 08:27 AM	#20
braindead0 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2002 Location: Canton, Oh Posts: 897	Have you thought about selling plans and instructions? I was just thinking that there's a guy out here who custom fits leather holsters at gun shows.... Wonder if he'd be interested in "The Jim March Holster Fitting System" ;-) I just don't expect to get out to California anytime soon, and I doubt you have a 2" Windicator handy for fitting. __________________ DoD# 2223 Meum scapha volitare plenum anguillae

August 1, 2002, 08:50 AM	#21
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,742	Jim one thing that you can work from a marketing perspective is that your holsters can be made to fit any gun out there. For all of those guys with odd guns that they like, with almost no holster options available. Ultrastar, CZ52, etc.

August 1, 2002, 03:55 PM	#24
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	Actual photos of various "Mark2" series pieces done free for local friends is up: http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/holsters.html In a couple shots, you can see me making 'em. The "Mark3" series is in R&D, and should be a lot better. Better edges, the small kydex areas that show will be colored, and I think I can eliminate "fold 4" allowing for any size belt and an easier time taking the whole holster on and off. I can also do knives, as you'll see. Onslaught: I can do any "depth" you want, although I think you'll find that will the "deep tuck of the shirt" this rig allows, you'll be able to keep most of the grip above the beltline for a faster draw. I can also do whatever grip angle you want. The guy that has that 1911 3" rig pictured tested some draws with the shirt tucked behind the holster rather than covering the gun, and declared it fast enough for "carry gun competition" matches. Anyways. The Mark3s should be very close to the final for-sale-versus-free standard I'm looking for. __________________ Jim March

August 1, 2002, 07:23 PM	#25
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 5,366	There's another thread on these here: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...postid=1108756 Scott Evans got curious and made one up just as a test, and posted pics . Kewl. I like some aspects of mine better but I gotta learn to do edges right! __________________ Jim March