Model 58 loads

mdlowry · May 4, 2002, 03:27 PM

Does anyone know what load the *&* model 58 was regulated for? I remember there being to loads for the .41 magnum in the beginning. A 210gr hot load and a lighter 210gr SD load.

mdlowry

**Mike Irwin** · May 4, 2002, 04:01 PM

Yes, it was regulated for a 210-gr. lead bullet moving at about 1,150 fps from the 4" barrel.

That was what S&W and Remington touted as the "perfect" police load.

mdlowry · May 4, 2002, 04:08 PM

Thanks Mike!

Now if I just had a chrono. . .

Lone Star · May 4, 2002, 05:46 PM

Mike,

That "police" load went out at a nominal 1,050 FPS, not 1,150.
I suspect that if one uses a 210 grain SWC at some 900 FPS, your M58 will shoot pretty close to the sights, and recoil will be much more reasonable.

Lone Star

**Mike Irwin** · May 4, 2002, 06:48 PM

Lone,

The velocity figure comes from Cartridges of the World. You'll have to take it up with Frank.

May 5, 2002, 05:23 AM

Hi! Have reloaded for my M58 since 1967.

Accuracy load for 210 gr. jkt. is 7.0 grs. Unique at 841 fps.

Factory duplication for 210 gr. jkt. is 20 grs H110 at 1148 fps.

or

2400 powder 14.4 grs. and 215 gr. SWC hard cast.

Hunting load was 22 grs. H110 and 210 gr. jkt. SP.

Most of these loads cannot be found unless you have the 1960s manuals.

I still use the Unique and H110.
I have backed the loads down on the H110 in my M657s and the Mountain Gun. Just not into recoil anymore.:barf:

Beware: All but the Unique load are at MAX!!
Unless you have the T/C as I do.

I also load conservative in my Marlin .41 mag.
My Ruger Blackhawks are OK with the hot loads.
But for cowboy shoots I use the Unique load or the Herco.

Enjoy.

May 5, 2002, 05:27 AM

BTW
One of the reasons the .41 mag did not do well, was because Remington did not furnish the police load until later. They had promised both the hunting and the PD loads at the same time. Did not happen. And at 41 oz. only a few of us wanted to carry it on duty.

Most went back to the M19.

I did not.

dewey · May 5, 2002, 08:08 AM

I had a dickens of a time getting a Nickel,ported 58 to shoot to point of aim. After having a 'smith friend install a TALL front site and start filing it down with my standard load I ended up trading it off. 8^ (

We surmized that it had been dropped and something bent...dewey

Lone Star · May 5, 2002, 08:26 AM

Mike Irwin-

I don't know which edition of, "Cartridges of the World" you have. Mine is the 9th edition, and it shows the factory police round at 965 FPS; the only lead load listed. Frank Barnes is dead, so I can't "take it up with him", but I think what you saw was a missprint in the edition that you apparently have.

My statement of 1,050 FPS is from memory, so I dug out my 1967 "Gun Digest", which still had the old figures being used when the .41 Mag. was introduced. The ammo tables on page 364 show the lead bullet figure as indeed being 1,050 FPS. Now: that same volume, on page 254 shows Ken Waters's test of the M58. He actually chronographed that load at 951 FPS from his gun. The Remington JSP round went 1311 FPS. It had a nominal velocity in tables of 1500 FPS. Obviously, a M57 with a six-inch bbl. would add maybe 80 or so FPS to the four-inch bbl. velocity of the M58, but clearly, the factory figures were optimistic, to be tactful. I feel sure they were chronographed from a pressure bbl., not revolvers.

I hope this will clear up the issue. Please understand that I was only trying to ensure that forum members got the correct info, not challenge you personally.

By the way, I fired an M58 that another shooter had at the range one day. Had Pearlite Magna style grips. With even the "police" load, let alone full Magnum rounds, it was the most vicious-kicking handgun that I've ever fired, and I've owned both Ruger and S&W .44 Mags.

Lone Star

**Mike Irwin** · May 5, 2002, 04:39 PM

Damn, Lone, you didn't need to make it a personal quest. I know Barnes is dead, that's why the

after the comment.

I've got the 7th edition.

Go up into the narrative, not the table, and you'll see what I quoted...

"The 210-grain police load with its 1150 fps is relatively pleasant to shoot and really quite adequate for small game or varmints."

Looks like I should have read a little farther --

"Factory-claimed velocities are for an 8 3/8" barrel. Velocity developed from the 6-inch barrel is about 1000 fps. for the police load..."

So, looks like we're both right. Shave another 2" off the tube, and I could see the police load doing 965.

But let's face it, you could take one box of ammo, I could take another box of ammo, we could shoot them through identical guns, and come up with significantly different velocity figures.

What, then, really IS the correct figure?

What the factory says?

What your gun says?

What my gun says?

Or what another person finds, under completely different testing parameters?

WESHOOT2 · May 6, 2002, 06:08 PM

Now it might be easier to understand why:

my pages have no listed velocities

I end with "Your results may vary"

I end with ".....but not always....."

I own matching pairs of certain guns; they shoot the same ammo differently.

I have a friend who installed a six-inch top on his 5-inch 1911; it shot slower.

I test my ammo before I ship it; often my (chrono-capable) customers report higher velocity from their gun.

Still art..............working toward science.
(HOW can we even remotely consider testing for 'stopping power'?)

**Mike Irwin** · May 6, 2002, 09:07 PM

"Welcome to my world..."

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, don't intend to visit again.

May 6, 2002, 09:25 PM

Did I mention I have two nickle unfired?

Radicalcleric · May 6, 2002, 09:55 PM

Damn! First Anthony and now two more guys talking about their nickeled M58s. You people trying to rub it in, or what?

May 4, 2002, 03:27 PM	#1
mdlowry Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 417	Model 58 loads Does anyone know what load the & model 58 was regulated for? I remember there being to loads for the .41 magnum in the beginning. A 210gr hot load and a lighter 210gr SD load. mdlowry __________________ My PGP key

May 4, 2002, 04:01 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,305	Yes, it was regulated for a 210-gr. lead bullet moving at about 1,150 fps from the 4" barrel. That was what S&W and Remington touted as the "perfect" police load. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 4, 2002, 04:08 PM	#3
mdlowry Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2001 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 417	Thanks Mike! Now if I just had a chrono. . . __________________ My PGP key

May 4, 2002, 06:48 PM	#5
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,305	Lone, The velocity figure comes from Cartridges of the World. You'll have to take it up with Frank. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 5, 2002, 08:08 AM	#8
dewey Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 1999 Location: South East Posts: 399	M58 I had a dickens of a time getting a Nickel,ported 58 to shoot to point of aim. After having a 'smith friend install a TALL front site and start filing it down with my standard load I ended up trading it off. 8^ ( We surmized that it had been dropped and something bent...dewey __________________ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ...and He will come again . . . *SOON !*

May 4, 2002, 05:46 PM	#4
Lone Star Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2002 Posts: 512	Mike, That "police" load went out at a nominal 1,050 FPS, not 1,150. I suspect that if one uses a 210 grain SWC at some 900 FPS, your M58 will shoot pretty close to the sights, and recoil will be much more reasonable. Lone Star

May 5, 2002, 05:23 AM	#6
M58 Guest Posts: n/a	Hi! Have reloaded for my M58 since 1967. Accuracy load for 210 gr. jkt. is 7.0 grs. Unique at 841 fps. Factory duplication for 210 gr. jkt. is 20 grs H110 at 1148 fps. or 2400 powder 14.4 grs. and 215 gr. SWC hard cast. Hunting load was 22 grs. H110 and 210 gr. jkt. SP. Most of these loads cannot be found unless you have the 1960s manuals. I still use the Unique and H110. I have backed the loads down on the H110 in my M657s and the Mountain Gun. Just not into recoil anymore.:barf: Beware: All but the Unique load are at MAX!! Unless you have the T/C as I do. I also load conservative in my Marlin .41 mag. My Ruger Blackhawks are OK with the hot loads. But for cowboy shoots I use the Unique load or the Herco. Enjoy.

May 5, 2002, 05:27 AM	#7
M58 Guest Posts: n/a	BTW One of the reasons the .41 mag did not do well, was because Remington did not furnish the police load until later. They had promised both the hunting and the PD loads at the same time. Did not happen. And at 41 oz. only a few of us wanted to carry it on duty. Most went back to the M19. I did not.

May 5, 2002, 08:26 AM	#9
Lone Star Senior Member Join Date: February 10, 2002 Posts: 512	Mike Irwin- I don't know which edition of, "Cartridges of the World" you have. Mine is the 9th edition, and it shows the factory police round at 965 FPS; the only lead load listed. Frank Barnes is dead, so I can't "take it up with him", but I think what you saw was a missprint in the edition that you apparently have. My statement of 1,050 FPS is from memory, so I dug out my 1967 "Gun Digest", which still had the old figures being used when the .41 Mag. was introduced. The ammo tables on page 364 show the lead bullet figure as indeed being 1,050 FPS. Now: that same volume, on page 254 shows Ken Waters's test of the M58. He actually chronographed that load at 951 FPS from his gun. The Remington JSP round went 1311 FPS. It had a nominal velocity in tables of 1500 FPS. Obviously, a M57 with a six-inch bbl. would add maybe 80 or so FPS to the four-inch bbl. velocity of the M58, but clearly, the factory figures were optimistic, to be tactful. I feel sure they were chronographed from a pressure bbl., not revolvers. I hope this will clear up the issue. Please understand that I was only trying to ensure that forum members got the correct info, not challenge you personally. By the way, I fired an M58 that another shooter had at the range one day. Had Pearlite Magna style grips. With even the "police" load, let alone full Magnum rounds, it was the most vicious-kicking handgun that I've ever fired, and I've owned both Ruger and S&W .44 Mags. Lone Star

May 5, 2002, 04:39 PM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,305	Damn, Lone, you didn't need to make it a personal quest. I know Barnes is dead, that's why the after the comment. I've got the 7th edition. Go up into the narrative, not the table, and you'll see what I quoted... "The 210-grain police load with its 1150 fps is relatively pleasant to shoot and really quite adequate for small game or varmints." Looks like I should have read a little farther -- "Factory-claimed velocities are for an 8 3/8" barrel. Velocity developed from the 6-inch barrel is about 1000 fps. for the police load..." So, looks like we're both right. Shave another 2" off the tube, and I could see the police load doing 965. But let's face it, you could take one box of ammo, I could take another box of ammo, we could shoot them through identical guns, and come up with significantly different velocity figures. What, then, really IS the correct figure? What the factory says? What your gun says? What my gun says? Or what another person finds, under completely different testing parameters? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 6, 2002, 06:08 PM	#11
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 13,036	WELCOME TO MY WORLD Now it might be easier to understand why: my pages have no listed velocities I end with "Your results may vary" I end with ".....but not always....." I own matching pairs of certain guns; they shoot the same ammo differently. I have a friend who installed a six-inch top on his 5-inch 1911; it shot slower. I test my ammo before I ship it; often my (chrono-capable) customers report higher velocity from their gun. Still art..............working toward science. (HOW can we even remotely consider testing for 'stopping power'?) __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

May 6, 2002, 09:07 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,305	"Welcome to my world..." Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, don't intend to visit again. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 6, 2002, 09:25 PM	#13
M58 Guest Posts: n/a	Did I mention I have two nickle unfired? Last edited by M58; May 7, 2002 at 01:02 PM.

May 6, 2002, 09:55 PM	#14
Radicalcleric Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2001 Posts: 645	Damn! First Anthony and now two more guys talking about their nickeled M58s. You people trying to rub it in, or what?