Handgun stopping power

[WVsig]

In most common calibers it is a myth....

Most handgun calibers require a vital shot of some kind or lots of little hole which create a lot of little sources of blood loss in order to stop BGs.

For all the people giving single examples of handguns "stopping" people or animals I would like to remind you.... all poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

Single examples are not expressions of universal truth.

[481]

Originally Posted by WVsig:

In most common calibers it is a myth....

Most handgun calibers require a vital shot of some kind or lots of little hole which create a lot of little sources of blood loss in order to stop BGs.

For all the people giving single examples of handguns "stopping" people or animals I would like to remind you.... all poodles are dogs not all dogs are poodles.

Single examples are not expressions of universal truth.

Agreed. The term "stopping power" is simply an over-simplification meant to encapsulate all of the intangibles and complexities involved in terminal ballistic performance. Ammo manufacturers exploit it (using many definitions) to sell ammo and it serves, in the debate of which caliber or bullet design is "better", as nothing more than an additional distraction since the definitions of "what" is vary almost to a person.

There have been magnificent successes -and miserable failures- with every caliber available. "Stopping power" with anything "handheld" simply does not exist. Artillery, given its tendency to obliterate large structures, probably qualifies.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by 481

"Stopping power" with anything "handheld" simply does not exist.

Obviously posted by someone who's never seen what an RPG with an HE warhead does to the human body .....

[481]

Originally Posted by 45_auto:

Obviously posted by someone who's never seen what an RPG with an HE warhead does to the human body .....

Posted by someone who has never seen what a hand grenade can do. I was clearly talking about handgun calibers, so to take my comment out of context is really kind of juvenile. Hand grenades are also 'handheld' but you seem to have missed that possibility, too.

You must look awfully funny walking around town with that RPG shoved in your waistband.

[Hunter Customs]

In my example with the empty Coke cans, the .44 magnum (240 grain @ ~ 1400 fps) was less than impressive.

OTOH - the 150 grain .30/30@ ~2400 fps was extremely impressive.

But - which one would drop a big brown bear, an elk or a moose?

Using the numbers for the 44mag it has a KO factor of 20.64, the numbers for the 30/30 give it a KO factor of 15.84.

Some feel the higher the KO factor the better, so it looks like the 44 mag would be a better choice.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Hunter Customs]

So to put in context I carry the most powerful gun I can conceal and shoot well. Right now it is a S&W 44 magnum.

Although I'm packing a 45 and not a 44 mag this is my thoughts exactly.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by 481

You must look awfully funny walking around town with that RPG shoved in your waistband.

Yeah, sometimes it takes an armed escort to keep the ladies away!!!

[Hal]

Some feel the higher the KO factor the better

& a whole lot more toss the TKO numbers on the campfire .

[Mike38]

Well placed shot being the key words here. Last time I was black powder hunting for white tail, I hit a very large buck at 50 yards with a .50 using sabots and .429 hollow point bullets. The exact same bullets used in a handgun. I’m guessing, but I would think that my black powder rifle energy and velocity would be pretty close to a handguns. I hit the buck in the heart. It was dead before it hit the ground. Didn’t move a muscle. Didn’t flinch. Didn’t take a last breath. Didn’t do anything but crumble into a heap. I would think the exact same thing would happen to a human being, even at 50 yards.

[Guv]

I'd take the 30-30's bullet higher speed and sectional density over the 44's weight and diameter.

[JD0x0]

Using the numbers for the 44mag it has a KO factor of 20.64, the numbers for the 30/30 give it a KO factor of 15.84.

Some feel the higher the KO factor the better, so it looks like the 44 mag would be a better choice.

If you go by the TKO factor it favors the .44 mag over the .270 Winchester which has a similar TKO to the 30-30. The .270 is more deadly than the .44 and the 30-30 with the right bullet. It carries significantly more energy and velocity than either, and has higher SD bullets available.

[44 AMP]

the advanced physics crap makes my head hurt...in particular the problem with the swimmer, who swims to the end of the pool, and then back to the start. According to the math, they didn't go anywhere...

But they did.

Use what ever formulas you like, and what ever units of measure you want. Its still only a description of observed real world results.

A living body won't instantly die when hit with the amount of force behind most handgun calibers.

I'd venture a guess there are a lot of dead people who would argue that point, if they could...

I do believe firmly that handguns have knockdown power. Large frame steel ones have the most. Hit someone in the head with 3+ pounds of steel and they get knocked down!

[Micahweeks]

I think they only lack in power when compared to rifles and shotguns. As for accomplish the rather simple task of stopping an aggressor, what power they bring to the table is more than adequate. If my revolver can knock down a black bear in one, well-placed shot, it's fine for stopping a home invader. I've never bought into this idea that I need close to rifle or shotgun performance for my handgun to do its job.

[Hunter Customs]

If you go by the TKO factor it favors the .44 mag over the .270 Winchester which has a similar TKO to the 30-30. The .270 is more deadly than the .44 and the 30-30 with the right bullet. It carries significantly more energy and velocity than either, and has higher SD bullets available.

I don't believe the 270 to be more deadly then the 44 mag at close range, I've seen deer shot with both cartridges and the deer were dead, none were more dead then the others.

It's true the 270 shows more energy, velocity and has higher SD bullets which is all great for longer range shooting, but at close range how much energy and velocity was used in it's intended target and how much was lost once it passes through it's intended target?

Now if I was hunting dangerous game especially where I thought the encounter may be at close range I would choose a cartridge with a much higher KO then either the 44 mag or 270.

Now for self defense against another human at normal self defense distances I would say either the 270 or 44 mag would suffice, however it would be more likely that I would be packing a 44 mag on me then a 270.

Yep, I'll admit, I'm old school, when it comes to packing a handgun I don't buy into all the hype about light bullets and high velocity.
So in most cases when packing a handgun for self defense any caliber that starts with a 4 and ends with a 4 or 5 is my first choice.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[JD0x0]

I don't believe the 270 to be more deadly then the 44 mag at close range, I've seen deer shot with both cartridges and the deer were dead, none were more dead then the others.

Well when they're dead you can't really tell which one is 'more dead'
That's not really what I was getting at. You can kill a deer with .22LR if you shoot it in the right spot in a hunting scenario. So that's like putting .44mag .270 win and .22LR on equal grounds because they can all kill a deer, and a .44 mag doesn't kill a deer more 'dead' than .22LR either, right?

Suppose you gut shot that deer hypothetically. (remember this is a panic SD situation, maybe you don't get perfect shot placement on the BG, either)
Which one is more likely to take the deer down faster with equal shot placement? A gut shot with 44 mag or .270? The .270 could potentially, destroy the heart and/or lungs even if they're not directly in the path of the bullet. The .44 has much less of a chance to do that. Obviously I don't condone making up for terrible shots, with more gun, but with SD scenario, you are not going to have the same amount of time, to ready your shot, like you would a deer. It's likely that you're going for COM hits and I'd much prefer a rifle round like the .270 over the .44 because of it's remote wounding capabilities which are significantly greater of that of the .44 mag's.

but at close range how much energy and velocity was used in it's intended target and how much was lost once it passes through it's intended target?

With the right bullet, still more energy than the .44 mag is capable of producing at the muzzle. There are .270 bullets that will get lodged in the far side of the deer, and there are also choices that will pop right out and exit quickly. Don't assume that because the cartridge generates more energy, that a majority of it is 'wasted' because it caused a pass through. You can still dump major energy with a through and through with the right bullet, and as I've mentioned there are choices that will not exit a deer at close range. This argument isn't about bullet selection though, so I digress. My point is with properly selected bullets for both .270 and .44 mag the .270 is capable of far more terminal damage than the .44 yet the .44 has a higher TKO factor, which obviously shows it isn't directly related to power or killing ability.

I think the biggest problem with the TKO factor is that it generally does not factor in a bullet's ability to expand. So essentially the TKO factor is that of a FMJ or wadcutter type bullet. I would think if a .277 bullet expanded to .54 3'' into the target that the TKO factor would vary greatly from the original diameter. Suppose that a .277cal 130 grain bullet @ 3100fps. TKO is 16 before bullet expansion. But what if 3'' into the target the bullet has expanded to .54 caliber and is still traveling 2700fps. TKO is now 27 after 3'' into the target because diameter is larger. TKO favors big bore calibers. It makes .45ACP look comparable to .260 Remington which is just silly to me.

[Nanuk]

My point is with properly selected bullets for both .270 and .44 mag the .270 is capable of far more terminal damage than the .44 yet the .44 has a higher TKO factor, which obviously shows it isn't directly related to power or killing ability.

I guess you have never seen anyone shot with a 44 magnum 180 JHP @ 1500 fps.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Brian hasn't just hit the nail on the head but he's already firmly planted several nails in the wood. I agree 110% pretty much what I was going to say, just a lot more words.


Bob, you don't think my 127gr +P+ 9mm winchester ranger t-series will do as much or even more damage than a .40S&W or .45ACP?

[JD0x0]

I guess you have never seen anyone shot with a 44 magnum 180 JHP @ 1500 fps.

Whether I've seen it or not. Do you REALLY think that it has more wound potential than a 90 grain SP/HP @ 3600fps, 130 grain SP/HP bullet @ 3000-3200fps or a 150 grain SP @ 2800-2900fps, etc. in .277cal?
I don't see what you're getting at. I never claimed the .44 mag was weak.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Originally Posted by Nanuk

I guess you have never seen anyone shot with a 44 magnum 180 JHP @ 1500 fps.

I have. He took his own life. We smelled him from outside his home. I can go into detail if the mods want me to.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by 44AMP

According to the math, they didn't go anywhere...

Ah... Xeno's Paradox.... in a manner of speaking... the solution to which required the invention of calculus.

If you think these equations are fun, we haven't even touched differential equations or linear algebra.

Originally Posted by JD0x0

which obviously shows it isn't directly related to power or killing ability.

The kicker there (pun intended) is that we have to define those words, "power" and "killing ability".

We obviously don't mean the physics definition of power, which would be energy consumed over time (watts or joules). Do you mean momentum? TKO is heavily influenced by momentum.

The formula for TKO factor is:


m is mass, v is velocity, d is bullet diameter and 700 is grains per pound.

Essentially, it is the momentum times the diameter, divided by grains per pound.

We have to remember that the TKOf is not a physics formula. It is literally one man's opinion of what made for a lot of knock-out power.

A bullet of 1/2 the diameter, says a .223Rem versus a .45 colt, would have to have some combination of twice as much velocity and mass in order to get to the same TKOf. Considering that cutting the diameter also cuts the mass, pretty much by default unless the bullet gets longer and longer, you need to make up for that with ever increasing velocity.

In other words, Taylor intentionally (and arbitrarily) significantly emphasizes bullet diameter and provides no real rationale for his arbitrary selections, besides the fact that his information is now nearly 75 years out of date.

[Hunter Customs]

Whether I've seen it or not. Do you REALLY think that it has more wound potential than a 90 grain SP/HP @ 3600fps, 130 grain SP/HP bullet @ 3000-3200fps or a 150 grain SP @ 2800-2900fps, etc. in .277cal?

I believe this thread was dealing with knockdown, stopping or Knockout factor, not wound potential.

JD0X0 lets take the coveted 270 that you have been using with another example, seeing that you think KO is not a factor and velocity and energy are the true factors.

Lets say you are heading to big bear country where the shots will be close, you have a choice between a 270 shooting a 130gr Trophy Bonded bullet at a velocity 3050fps producing a muzzle energy of 2685 ft lbs with a KO factor of 15.69 or you can take a 45-70 shooting a 300gr Trophy Bonded bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1850fps producing a muzzle energy of 2280 ft lbs with a KO factor of 36.3, which would you choose to defend your life against a big bear?

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Hunter Customs

I believe this thread was dealing with knockdown, stopping or Knockout factor, not wound potential.

Technically, the thread was supposed to be about "stopping power" as it relates to penetration. I suspect we're a long ways from that, though.

Taylor's KO dealt with shooting big, heavy bullets at huge, dangerous game. He biased his results toward the big, heavy bullets that are (were, 75 years ago) required to get adequate penetration on those huge, dangerous animals.

He was also using bullet technology from the 1940s.

If I had to defend my life against a charging bear, high-momentum, high-recoiling, difficult and slow follow-up shot gun would not be my choice. I do not want a .45-70. Perhaps, if I were extremely well practiced professional hunter, I might take huge .500 Express double rifle or something.

Otherwise, I would choose a relatively low-recoil, semi-auto rifle, with a red dot sight, shooting Barnes TTSX or Hornady GMX bullets as fast as I could drive them and not blow up the gun.

[44 AMP]

If I had to defend my life against a charging bear, ...

One of the frequently asked questions is what's best for bear defense....
Which is quite a different matter than bear hunting. Although some hunting might combine the two.....

"stopping power" against a human involves human (or nominally anyway) intelligence. Some attacks are stopped by the mere sight of a gun. Some are stopped when the attacker is not critically wounded. Other are only stopped when the attacker is physically rendered incapable of attack, and animal attacks are often in this class as well.

Virtually everyone agrees that if you hit the right spot, with nearly anything, it shuts off man or beast. Everything we discuss when it comes to stopping power, or knock down, or call it what you will, its all about what works better/best and to what degree, when you don't hit just the right spot.

[silvermane_1]

the whole stopping power/knockdown power arguments remind me of the old B&W film clips of the fat guy getting shot in the gut with a cannon ball.

[Fisher]

which would you choose to defend your life against a big bear?

Brian, for me it would be hands down the 45/70. Although I would use a 405 grain cast bullet. A well placed big bullet for terminal damage with sufficient velocity for penetration equals a dead bear. This not a tough decision in my book.

Jim