finally disarmed of my ccw by cop

[Bud Helms]

Glock 31:

IMHO people are either criminals or they aren't, if there is a middle position, I am unaware of it.

That's a nice, neat view of the situation, but when was the last time you woke up in your own bed a felon one morning, because a law came into effect at midnight. Millions of Americans have done just that.

tanksoldier:

Every complaint in this thread seems to revolve around the complainer not obeying the law: (Failure to wear a motorcycle helmet where required, failure to properly stow weapons for transport, etc).

Obey the freakin' law and you won't have a problem.

Same comment, tanksoldier. There's some bad freakin' law out there. If the complaint about an ordinance, statute or national law is legitimate, the fact that some one has violated it and been convicted does not mean the criticism of that criminal code is wrong. If it's wrong, it's wrong, and everyone convicted under that "bad law" is wrongly convicted. I do not necessarily make this argument against all the specific circumstances described in this thread, but, with all due respect, "Obey the freakin' law and you won't have a problem." is sheeptalk.

[tyme]

xavier, there are several ways to look at that incident.

One is that cops need to treat everyone as felons in case the next stopped driver is another Blackburn.

Another is that if cops didn't enforce marijuana and concealed weapons laws, Coates would still be alive.

You can't claim that that murder has some relevance to disarming ccw holders; Blackburn didn't have a ccw. The ccw law wouldn't have made the situation any better. The disclosure requirement and temporary confiscation ability wouldn't make the situation any better. A bad guy with a ccw license is not going to disclose, period, unless he doesn't intend to cause trouble and knows there's nothing illegal in his car.

How do you see that incident as supporting the need for cops to know about and temporarily confiscate legally carried weapons? I don't see the connection.

[DasBoot]

Sensop...What law are you referring to here:
"when was the last time you woke up in your own bed a felon one morning, because a law came into effect at midnight. Millions of Americans have done just that."

And what do you mean by "sheeptalk"?

[Bud Helms]

DasBoot, are you serious?

We have laws that ban what you may own or have in you possession. California seems to be the worst offender. A person owns a particular type of firearm for, say twenty years, his state or the federal government passes a ban on ownership, he/she does nothing to prepare for the ban and wakes up one morning in violation. Violation is a felony. Now, doing nothing to prepare for the change in the law is definitely "non-compliance", but thousands of people may have owned these firearms for a long time and have never misused them. That is intrusive. [Edit: And actually I use "waking up a felon" as a general description for these law changes that impose tighter restrictions, and require positive action by a citizen to remain compliant with the law, even though there is usually a transition period to allow for compliance.] I do not advocate violating the law, but why, suddenly, am I prohibited from owning a rifle or handgun that has never been misused by me? Because it can be misused? That is law principled in prevention and that has been shown to be a poor basis for new law. The logic associated with such law has no conclusion. Sharp sticks, fists ... what are we going to do, cut off our hands?

Sheeptalk: Baaaaaaa. Talking like the rest of the sheep. Follow the rules. Comply. Obey. Avoid critical thinking. Avoid thinking through to the possible consequences. Avoid reponsibility.

[Edit: At this point, we'll go to L&P Forum]

[craigntx]

with our (houstons) murder rate skyrocketing, and response time of 30 minutes or more, dont you think cops got better things to do than stopping traffic thats not driving dangerously?

[Glock 31]

No i'm not saying cops will protect other cops in EVERY case even if the cop in question is wrong. I'm saying that in MOST cases, they will stand by their own until all the facts about his guilt or innocence are in. Then, if indeed the cop was in the wrong, they treat them like any other criminal. Cops, like soldiers, need the moral support and comraderie of their fellow officers to make the job a little easier, more fun, and safer. If one of your loved ones was accused of a crime, would you immediately decry him/her a criminal, or would you stand by them until proven guilty? I would like to think most of us would stand by our loved ones till proven guilty. Even though some can't accept the fact that even loved ones can be guilty, that's beside the point. I guess i'm saying that most of the time, the thin blue wall isn't bad or corrupt except when it gets in the way of justice.

And as for waking up in bed a felon, which law exactly was that? Isn't there something that says if an act was not a crime and is later made into a criminal offense, you can't be prosecuted for the prior act or something like that? Anyway when I say criminal or not, I am refering to the obvious crimes like murder, rape, and robbery and such. Not being able to ccw one day and not the next. Come on. Don't immediately infer that when I post something like that, it applies to every possible situation or scenario.

Basically if someone is a fugitive, and they get caught cause of a traffic violation, great. But they will believe that cops shouldn't be able to use traffic violations to pull people over cause they don't want to get caught. If your not a fugitive, and you get pulled over for a traffic violation. Well I don't see what you have to complain about. You wouldn't have gotten pulled over if you didn't violate the traffic code.

Tank soldier put it as simple as I ever could, Obey the law and you won't have anything to worry about.

If you don't like the law, then write some letters if you think it needs changing. But in the end, we are better off with traffic laws and the arrests that are brought about by them, than without them.

[craigntx]

and the idea that if you dont do anything wrong you wont be stopped is false.
ive been stopped (again on a m.c.) for absolutely NO REASON except maybe i had long hair and was riding a mc.
the first thing i did was ask "what did i do wrong"?
the response- "this bike isnt registered to you"
this exchange occured b4 he id' me!

this was in spring valley (a small "town" on the west side)...

[Mike Irwin]

The ONLY way I'm volunteering to a cop that I'm armed (other than my good friend the cop, he doesn't count) is if I'm asked to step from my vehicle.

Up to that point, I'm not required to under Virginia law, and I don't give a damn if he gets uptight about it or not.


That said, the other night I was pulled over for the first time in probably 10 years. My license plates had expired.

The officer was professional, courteous, told me to get my plates renewed the next day, and sent me on my way.

Bastard. He treated me like a criminal, using red lights to pull me over!

[Zen900]

ZEN,
I'm still having a problem understanding your problem.
If your guns are improperly stored, you SHOULD be hassled

I had no permit so the cop didn't have any reason to ask about a gun at my traffic stop. I went along merrily about my way with no problem. The only reason I had a gun in my car was that I was going to the shooting range.

This is my point. I want to live in peace. I don't want to draw attention to myself.

A gun permit would have caused a problem where there wasn't one at that traffic stop. This was the deciding moment for my choice not to mail in my completed application for a gun permit. I only wanted to carry a gun for self-defense. I actually have no desire to lug around a heavy dangerous weapon all the time. Some people just like carrying a gun. I'm not of that ilk. I decided instead to use two non-lethal means of self defense: kubaton and pepper spray. A gun permit can get a person in trouble; you can lose the gun or you can have an accidental shooting or forget you have the gun and walk through a metal detector, etc, on and on. I want none of that. I only wanted to be able to fend off a mugger not scare a cop. In fact the kubaton with my keys on it has already deterred one nut. I can do quite a bit of damage without a gun plus I can drop my kubaton on the floor at the grocery store without creating a scene. By the way, a cop at the shooting range showed me the kubaton. Interesting little weapon it is.

[Eghad]

In Texas when they pull up your liscense its tagged to show you have a CHL and you are required to give your CHL and DL together. If you dont, you can get a suspension of your CHL.

[XavierBreath]

tyme

Another is that if cops didn't enforce marijuana and concealed weapons laws, Coates would still be alive.

This confuses me, I'm not sure how to respond. If Trooper Coates had stopped for a cup of coffee at the last exit, he would still be alive. If he had been anywhere else, doing anything else, he would still be alive. Performing the duties of his job did not cause his death. Blackburn caused Trooper Coates' death. Nothing else.

Blackburn did have a concealed weapon. He apparently did not have a license to carry it. I am not claiming Trooper Coates' murder has anything to do with disarming CCW holders at traffic stops. I do believe it has something to do with an officer's anxiety level during a traffic stop. That is reality, and it cannot be altered. If I can lower that anxiety a bit, I will certainly try, even if it means being disarmed.

As I stated, I do not like being disarmed, especially by an anxious LEO. I don't want to be shot with my own gun. But, what are the options as the law now reads in Louisiana?

I ask Craig again, did the LEO clear the chamber? If not, he is not qualified to disarm anyone, and he is certainly not qualified to stick the pistol back in their jacket pocket. That, and the speeding up to within feet of a traveling motorcycle really bothers me.

[Ledbetter]

I got rear-ended recently and when the lady asked me to go to the ambulance to get checked out, I gave the highway patrolman my permit and asked if I could give him my gun for safekeeping. It was in an off-body concealment case.

He kept it and gave it back to me when I was ready to drive what was left of my car home.

But, really, to be on the safe side, when you say "only when I get really drunk" to a cop, remember to add "sir."

[tyme]

Blackburn caused Trooper Coates' death. Nothing else.

True. Blackburn caused Trooper Coates' death because Blackburn had 1) marijuana and 2) weapons, and because Trooper Coates asked to search Blackburn's vehicle... to search for 1) drugs and 2) weapons.

Get rid of laws prohibiting 1) drugs and 2) weapons, and bad people like Blackburn will probably not murder LEOs even if they do ask to search. Also, LEOs won't put themselves in a position where their murder is likely because they won't be searching people's vehicles unless the driver is already a suspect in a particular crime.

[Normal45]

This whole thread has reinforced my decision NOT to go for a CCP, CCW, CCL, ABC, CBS, XYZ or whatever it's called.

First, you're treated like a child or a moron by being forced to attend a mandatory safety class, where they tell you how dangerous guns are! Please, save the posts about always being able to learn something, I know, I know. Then they tell you how many laws there are concerning the use of your gun. Then they tell you that you had better consult a lawyer before you shoot your attacker or you will be the one going to jail.

Then, you're treated like a criminal with fingerprints and mug shot.

Then, you have the joy of having to explain your CCP every time a background check is done, i.e. new job, coaching your kids little league team (it happened to one of my kids' coach), etc.

Then, everytime a cop gets behind you in traffic, look out!

If he decides to stop you for one of a hundred different reasons, he'll run your license and KNOW you have the permit.

Then, from what I can tell from the posts, the fun will really begin!

He, or she, will treat you like a criminal, even though the most law abiding people in the country are CCP holders.

You better start babbling about where your gun is, shucking and shuffling and saying "sir" after every word.

Then this cop, who has a pistol on his hip all day and off duty, too, will treat YOUR pistol like it's a cobra ready to strike.

Then, if you're a good little boy/girl, say "sir" enough and are very polite, they might let you go with just a little hassle. As long as you recognize who's in charge!

I'm sorry, just as a cop is suspicious of everyone for his own safety, and understandably so, I am suspicious of every cop for my own self respect. I haven't gotten that many tickets in my 42 years of driving but, EVERYTIME I did, the cop was arrogant and condescending.

The concealed carry laws are just that, MORE LAWS! And the laws are designed to make most good, law abiding people decide that it just isn't worth all this demeaning hassle to have one.

[Glock 31]

You can't possibly think that eliminating laws that prohibit drugs and weapons will make any situation better!

If drugs were legal then drunk driving would be the least of anyone's concern. You'd have toked up people driving only the fastest speed their car is capable of, down residential neighborhoods cause they like to chase the colors.

It sounds to me that you are condoning the use of all drugs to include cocaine, speed, heroin, lsd, and any other problem drug of today. Are you saying every recovered addict who says the drug destroyed my life is just exaggerating?

And as for weapons, eliminating gun laws (the common sense ones) ensures that any felon can obtain a gun. Crime would sky rocket in every part of the country.

Blackburn shot and killed a police officer, that is an indication, nay the very definition of a remorseless killer. He obviously had no respect for the law or the individuals who inforce it and thinking he would have been all hunky dorie and friendly if he wasn't hiding anything illegal is ludicrous.

Hell, while were at it, let's get rid of laws saying you can't beat your wife. Then cops won't have to arrest the wife beaters cause they won't have to worry about stopping the incident at all. Poor poor opressed wife beaters.

[Zen900]

NORMAL45 This whole thread has reinforced my decision NOT to go for a CCP, CCW, CCL, ABC, CBS, XYZ or whatever it's called.

I'm one of the folks who agree with your opinion on the gun permit. However, if I had to carry money on my job(which I don't) or worked alot in bad neighborhoods(which I don't ) then I'd get a permit and carry a gun and put up with the added hassle the permit will cause. You have to weigh the pros and cons that's for sure.

[craigntx]

i like it.
when you come home, you never know whats crept into your house

[gc70]

Cops may get nervous about how an armed civilian might react to something so they disarm the civilian. Well, civilians may get nervous about how armed cops might react to something.

"So, officer, why don't you slowly remove your service weapon and place it out of reach on the hood of the vehicle while we proceed with this discussion."

[craigntx]

got stopped long ago, b4 the chl even began
"my wallets in my jacket, i got no guns"
cop- if you got guns we got guns
got a warning ticket....

[Dex Sinister]

First, anyone who would begrudge a LEO the need to temporarily disarm them should watch this video and return to post.
http://www.rcfop.com/index.php?modul...display&pid=60
1. Click on "Reality & In-Car Video"
2. Click on "Deadly Traffic Stop-The Shooting of Trooper Mark Coates"
3. Click on "Click Here To Watch Video"

Okay, I watched it.

Conclusion: Never, EVER, stop to assist a down officer, unless you want your life to hang by a tiny thread while crazed officers scream profanities at you at the top of their lungs, point guns at you, handcuff you, and drag you around face down in the dirt.

Oh, sorry, that wasn't the conclusion I was supposed to come to, was it?

Blackburn did have a concealed weapon. He apparently did not have a license to carry it. I am not claiming Trooper Coates' murder has anything to do with disarming CCW holders at traffic stops. I do believe it has something to do with an officer's anxiety level during a traffic stop. That is reality, and it cannot be altered. If I can lower that anxiety a bit, I will certainly try, even if it means being disarmed.

One thing I think every time I hear such a statement is that some people seem to have a very difficult time conceptualizing that we live in an immense country with 297 million other people, a very, very tiny percentage of whom are homocidal maniacs. If we form public policy - or even general "police perceptions" based on single pinpoint incidents, one can justify turning the US into a civilization that would be unrecognizable to our grandparents in terms of police "perogative" and freedom.

I'm old enough to remember when a "warning", such as Coates told Blackburn that he was giving him, did not include questions such as "How many years of formal education have you had?" I'm also old enough to remember when the police did not, as a routine attempt to bolster their arrests, attempt to coerce everyone they stopped into allowing a search of their vehicles -- a search which would be unconstitutional if police were not reasonably skilled at coercing the "voluntary" nullification of people's rights out of them.

Performing the duties of his job did not cause his death. Blackburn caused Trooper Coates' death. Nothing else.

Strictly interpreted, the "duties" of a routine traffic stop are to enforce traffic regulations. It seems quite obvious that if Coates, [who had finished writing up the warning, and had Blackburn re-exit the car on the pretext of signing the warning] had simply had Blackburn sign it and wished him a pleasant evening, Coates would still be alive.

It is the acceptance, either by the police or the public or both, of the coercive "police perogative" of attempting to expand every traffic stop into a fishing expedition to enforce anti-drug and anti-weapon laws that caused Coates death, not "Blackburn" per say - although Blackburn was certainly the instrumentality.

But it is pretty poor logic when one engages in an ever-increasing spiral of diminuation of citizen's rights and increases of police powers by:

• Establishing a policy of agressive policing,
• known to increase the danger to officers, and
• known to impinge the constitutional rights of citizens.
• and then, when the POLICY leads to officer deaths
• to use those deaths as an excuse to excuse ever more suspicious and violent enforcement of the dangerous policy

Dex

[Sport45]

Okay, I watched it.

Conclusion: Never, EVER, stop to assist a down officer, unless you want your life to hang by a tiny thread while crazed officers scream profanities at you at the top of their lungs, point guns at you, handcuff you, and drag you around face down in the dirt.

Oh, sorry, that wasn't the conclusion I was supposed to come to, was it?

I can't help but think that had the truckers been down on their knees administering CPR to the downed officer (as they should have been), instead of just standing around brandishing a handgun the response of the police arriving on the scene later would have been much different. Even if one of them did CPR while the other watched his back.

[Sport45]

I had no permit so the cop didn't have any reason to ask about a gun at my traffic stop. I went along merrily about my way with no problem. The only reason I had a gun in my car was that I was going to the shooting range.

This is my point. I want to live in peace. I don't want to draw attention to myself.

A gun permit would have caused a problem where there wasn't one at that traffic stop. This was the deciding moment for my choice not to mail in my completed application for a gun permit. I only wanted to carry a gun for self-defense. I actually have no desire to lug around a heavy dangerous weapon all the time. Some people just like carrying a gun. I'm not of that ilk. I decided instead to use two non-lethal means of self defense: kubaton and pepper spray.

If you don't want to carry, fine. That's your choice. But your argument about having a permit causing problems at a stop like this doesn't hold water. I've been stopped with firearms in cases on the seat as you describe. I said I had a permit and gave it to the officer with my DL. I told him the only weapons in the vehicle were in zippered gun cases. No problems at all.

A gun permit can get a person in trouble; you can lose the gun or you can have an accidental shooting or forget you have the gun and walk through a metal detector, etc, on and on. I want none of that. I only wanted to be able to fend off a mugger not scare a cop. In fact the kubaton with my keys on it has already deterred one nut. I can do quite a bit of damage without a gun plus I can drop my kubaton on the floor at the grocery store without creating a scene. By the way, a cop at the shooting range showed me the kubaton. Interesting little weapon it is.

If you do these things with a firearm, you'll find yourself in less trouble if you have a permit.

[smince]

I only wanted to carry a gun for self-defense. I actually have no desire to lug around a heavy dangerous weapon all the time.

I only wish I could tell when I might need a weapon and when I wouldn't. I'd be somewhere else if I knew I'd need one one a given day.

A gun permit can get a person in trouble; you can lose the gun or you can have an accidental shooting or forget you have the gun and walk through a metal detector, etc, on and on.

If that is your biggest concern, then you are right. You do not need a permit(or a gun, for that matter). You can lose your gun or have an AD at home, without a permit.

This whole thread has reinforced my decision NOT to go for a CCP, CCW, CCL, ABC, CBS, XYZ or whatever it's called.

First, you're treated like a child or a moron by being forced to attend a mandatory safety class, where they tell you how dangerous guns are! Please, save the posts about always being able to learn something, I know, I know. Then they tell you how many laws there are concerning the use of your gun. Then they tell you that you had better consult a lawyer before you shoot your attacker or you will be the one going to jail.

Then, you're treated like a criminal with fingerprints and mug shot.

Then, you have the joy of having to explain your CCP every time a background check is done, i.e. new job, coaching your kids little league team (it happened to one of my kids' coach), etc.

Then, everytime a cop gets behind you in traffic, look out!

If he decides to stop you for one of a hundred different reasons, he'll run your license and KNOW you have the permit.

Then, from what I can tell from the posts, the fun will really begin!

Gosh, none of this has ever really happened to me. I must be sheltered.

[Willy T]

I live in a state that does not require a permit to carry open or concealed. However state law says you must notify LEOs you are carrying if he is acting in a official capacity. I haven't been stopped by police while carrying and have always thought of the most considerate way to handle myself during a stop. Any LEOs out there have any advice on how they would like to be treated during a stop of a armed citizen?

[Zen900]

I only wish I could tell when I might need a weapon and when I wouldn't. I'd be somewhere else if I knew I'd need one one a given day.

But there is no doubt you will routinely meet police at licence checks and traffic stops and I despise those stops. I loathe condescending arrogant pushy grandiose LEOs. I've met too many of those in my time. In terms of incidences I see more bad LEOs than I see of bad guys. I consider LEOs as big of a problem as bad guys. And yes, most LEOs are class acts but for whatever reason the few stressed out LEOs don't get weeded out fast enough. I'm just as scared of those as I am of bad guys. I'm not trying to bash all LEOs rather I'm just telling you about life in the big city. I'm well aware that the LEO that was rude to me probably had to fight his way out of a incident the day before. The reason I see more bad LEOs than bad guys is that LEOs do a good job of keeping criminals off the street. But I'm still scared of cops no matter how you spin it. Maybe it has to do with my dad being a MP in the Marines when I was a kid. Who knows? We all have a story.

Naturally anybody would prefer to have a permit and gun on them for that one in a thousand chance of bad guy attack but I just don't want anything that causes hassles with LEOs so I had to choose pepper spray and a kubaton instead of a gun permit. But even if I had a permit I still can't carry a gun when I'm working in the field but I can carry pepper spray and kubaton at work. It was a tough descision and I may reconsider as I get older.