High pressure troubleshoot

[HiBC]

I don't think the issues I described would have significant effect on pressure.
They may give you symptoms that you interpret as excess pressure.
A hard bolt lift can certainly be excess pressure,dangerous pressure.It usually is. .Its not something to ignore.But bolt lug setback into the receiver can give hard bolt lift,too.
You have a lot of variables going on.
You apparently just removed a bunch of copper and found some pitting.
That could have some effect.
You bought IMR4350 on consignment. Etc.Fake powder can definitely cause pressure.
Don't get me wrong,you COULD have excessive pressure.
But you are chronographing just over 2600 fps with a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 using IMR4350.
Something is not adding up. This won't sound like much help,but you have to identify the problem to fix it.It might take pulling the barrel.If the receiver shows setback,your short chamber gives your smith a little steel to work with.He can take a skinny cut with a boring bar to true the surface flat.
If you don't have good locking lug engagement,like both lugs bearing at least 50%,you are not getting a valid headspace gauge measurement.If you get the lugs to contact,you MIGHT discover your headspace is fine.
That won't have a significant effect on pressure. It MIGHT have an effect on what you see as pressure SIGNS.
Or you may have bought some milsurp data powder that came out of a grey gallon can that was "repackaged" and put on consignment,and you MIGHT have excess pressure at 2600 fps.

[hounddawg]

It might take pulling the barrel.If the receiver shows setback,your short chamber gives your smith a little steel to work with.He can take a skinny cut with a boring bar to true the surface flat.

Savage 10/12 barrels are secured with a barrel nut with no machining required to adjust head space. A front sight does complicate matters there however

[Yosemite Steve]

HiBC, I just finished doing the job the gunsmith should have done with the alignment slot. Now the marker wears almost entirely off of both sides of the lug. The bolt head was bound up on the alignment pin. Now that part is all better. I suppose I could put the chamfers on too... when using a dental tool to feel the surface of the receiver I can feel no recession or lip or even a hint of it. My next item is to try a proven load from my gun with a proven powder and see what difference there is in velocity.

As much as I would like the gunsmith to make this right, my confidence in him is low at this point and I have no money to see a new one until Spring.

[reynolds357]

Just because the head floats does not mean the lugs on the bolt do not need to be lapped. Lap it for 100% contact. There is a chance it will take headspace out of spec.

[Yosemite Steve]

Savage 10/12 barrels are secured with a barrel nut with no machining required to adjust head space. A front sight does complicate matters there however

Gunsmith did say he would ream it if I want free of charge, but seeing what he did on the bolt head slot shot any remaining confidence I had in him out the window.

[hounddawg]

Gunsmith did say he would ream it if I want free of charge, but seeing what he did on the bolt head slot shot any remaining confidence I had in him out the window.

checking and setting headspace is always done when replacing a bolt head, not something considered afterward

what slot are you referring to?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Sava...8-SA-RH/T27333

your story is making less and less sense, no way you could even close the bolt if the chamber is .007 short

[Yosemite Steve]

Just because the head floats does not mean the lugs on the bolt do not need to be lapped. Lap it for 100% contact. There is a chance it will take headspace out of spec.

https://gundigest.com/how-to/gunsmit...g-lapping-lugs

[HiBC]

Thanks,Houndog. I understand that.The OP and I have been over all of this over another thread.Early on I suggested exactly what you just said. The OP did not like the sight being out of line.We have suggested the chamber reamer.UncleNick suggested a pull through.

I asked the OP why the bolt head was changed.He said concave bolt face.If the bolt face is concave,I wonder how flat is the locking surface inside the receiver.Lug setback is not unheard of.I,ve worked with old Mausers.
I suggested marker ink check on the locking lugs.OP says its not so good.I asked about corner conditions.OP says the old bolt head had a 1/16 edge chamfer on the locking lug.IF there is setback,that is the form.The new bolt head has sharp corners. HMMMM.What happens when a sharp outside corner tries to fit inside a chamfered inside corner? Interference.Might that interference hold the locking surfaces apart?Might it cause hard bolt lift? Might it make for a mushy lockup that would let a primer back up??Maybe.

Or that consignment IMR4350 might really be H-4895 in an IMR4350bottle..He might really have high pressure.

SO,OK,you can spin a reamer in there with a tap wrench.Deepen the chamber!

What if there is still hard bolt lift? What if the primers still flatten?What if there IS setback? Deepening the chamber won't fix it.So NOW we pull the barrel and true the receiver....and ,if the sights are straight up,excessive headspace,right?

I'm thinking verifying the locking lug engagement is foundation step one,if that's OK.

Hopefully that catches you up a bit. Thanks again!

[F. Guffey]

UncleNick correct me if I am wrong here but isn't a short chamber referencing a barrel that has not been completely machined ?

Some reloaders are wound 'sort' tight, others, like me, just do not get excited. I have long chambers, I have a few long chambers I did not cut but can be traced to EK stamped rifles. I have rifles with short chambers, the chambers are considered short because the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face is shorter than a go-gage length chamber 'and' there is the short chamber. The short chamber is shorter than a go gage length chamber, I have a short chamber that is as short as a minimum length/full length sized case. I want to know the length of the chamber from the datum to the bolt face in thousandths. The length of the chamber could be anything from .010" shorter than a minimum length/full length sized case to .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case.

With no discipline the reloader insist the case has head space, not me, I off set the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face with the length of the case.

Back to the bucket of bolts: A cute saying; order a bucket of bolts to increase the chance of finding a bolt that fits. A smith should be able to remove a bolt, measure its ability to off set the length of the chamber and compare that bolt with another bolts.

A builder of period correct 03 and 0.A3 etc., built a Rock Island 03. (again) he had 20+ go gages, he knew he had a chamber that was between go-gage and no go-gage length but could not figure how to reduce the length of the chamber to go-gaged, I demonstrated 3 different ways/methods/techniques he could use to determine the length of the chamber in thousandths. He had 100 + 03 bolts and I had 35, I offered to measure all of them in an attempt to solve his problem, I offered to sized cases that would give him the clearance he wanted.

He has the only hydraulic/powered/operated press I know of, he found a resource type person named John sent him a few straight handles bolts and from that bucket? he was able to put the rifle together?

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

no way you could even close the bolt if the chamber is .007 short

I purchased a barrel from Midway, they claimed it was a short chamber, I ask, "How short?" The barrel was .250" short and I asked: "How many chambers will the reamer cut at .250" each?"

And then there is the other problem; finding someone that can measure the length of a short chamber, .007" would be .002" shorter than a minimum length/full length size case.

F. Guffey

[Yosemite Steve]

what slot are you referring to?

See picture. The old bolt head is on the left.

The gunsmith did not ream the new bolt head enough and had to force the part together. The strain was enough to only allow one lug to make contact. I reamed it out more allowing for play on all sides and not the lugs are both wiping 85-90% of the marker of and match the wear on the old bolt head. I trusted his advice to try shooting a shorter chamber for accuracy and brass life but now I don't know. Why would he say that if he had some other motive. It appears that he either didn't know or didn't care that the floating bolt head needs to float.

[HiBC]

Guffey:Springfields have turn down bolts. Puzzling,but not useful.

Well done,Yosemite!! Think about this: Sloppy gunsmith,exactly what you found! You were not getting lug contact,and yes,the bolt head needed to float to sit down flat. You had mushy air between your bolt lugs and the receiver.
Your eyes and your mind are working.Keep at it.

[hounddawg]

I still have no idea of what "slot" the OP is referring to on a savage bolt head and I have serious doubts he would be able to close the bolt an any chamber that is .007 short. There may be gunsmiths out there that would not know that when replacing a bolt head on a Savage it requires resetting the head space but I don't know how they stay in business. However I do know that unless the smith or owner checks to make sure that barrel is correctly head spaced it should not be shot

with that said I am out of this thread

[F. Guffey]

It appears that he either didn't know or didn't care that the floating bolt head needs to float.

"Boats float"

I suggest measuring before and again after, I do not care what the smith/reloader is measuring. If he does not share my philosophy there is a chance the bolt face replacement did not reduce the length of the chamber, I know; that is confusing to most but if he measured the part he removed and compared it with the new replacement and found the new replacement was shorter there should have been a reduction in the length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face.

F. Guffey

[HiBC]

Hounddawg,some more history.The OP took .007 off his shelholder to short size brass so it would chamber.

[Yosemite Steve]

Guffey, if you read back you will see it has been measured. The bolt face of the new head is .007" more shallow than the old. All of their other measurements match.

[Yosemite Steve]

HiBC, I am going to cut those bevels so they match the old ones and recheck my clearances.

[HiBC]

Sounds like a plan.Use the marker.If you have good lug contact,the chamfer is not keeping them apart. But a little chamfer is generally a good thing.

[F. Guffey]

Springfields have turn down bolts. Puzzling,but not useful.

I have no clue who you are talking to; but if you are not familiar with the 03 just say so. The Rock Island 1911 had a straight handle, I have one straight handle 03 bolt, it is in a Rock Island 03, it is in one of the most abused 03 rifles that has survived. The builder of the rifle had and still has 100+ 03 bolts, at the time he did not have a straight handle 03 bolt. John Beard had a bucket full. I believed he sent 7 bolts, I asked if I could check the effect each bolt had on the length of the chamber but, I offered to make a tool that could be used for checking the bolts ability, I reminded him I had arsenal bolts that were unfinished, the unfinished bolts were used for checking the length of the chamber and they were used when cutting chambers with pull through reamers.

The old bolts are stamped HO.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

I know I said I was out of this thread but you are all way over complicating it. Ask yourself a simple question, would you attempt to shoot a gun when the bolt would not close on a a go gage ? No Go gages are only about .003 longer than go gages. What the OP is claiming is that a sammi specced case is .007 too long.

I am not sure why the mods have not moved this to the smith forum, this is not a reloading question.Any recommendations other than setting the head space to SAAMI specs is not a good recommendation

[Yosemite Steve]

HiBC, you know your stuff! I cut the bevels and the bolt closes on the standard fully sized case. It does not close on the partial sized cases I was making for this gun. The marker is not cleared away totally on the lug faces but only the outer edge. You are correct in that there is a recess that the lugs are sitting into. I don't know how deep but I'm guessing .006-.007". So I regret not paying more notice to your advice earlier on. There is much distraction and misinformation when one is looking to forums for advice. I will reduce my load back to 50 grains and do a gradual work up to see what happens now.

Between the concave bolt face and the recess I must have had excessive headspace that could not be determined with a go-no go gauge. Now to move forward. I will go buy a new shell holder. My partial sized brass will still work in the Enfield. I will bring all of this information to the gunsmith and at least let him know what he missed. He won't be touching my gun again.

Thank you HiBC! I look forward to any other thought you have.

[HiBC]

At this point,we are not too sure of your smith.If I were working on my own rifle...I have access to a nice machine shop. I'd check to see if a "Go" gauge would go. I'd pull the barrel ,stand the receiver up in a vee-block and use an indicator to see just how out of flat the receiver diaphragm is. Measure the setback.If it was less than the .007 or whatever you have as "short",I'd have to decide between "excellent" and "Pretty good" Making or buying a specialized receiver truing jig would be "Excellent"The receiver is a piece of round tubing that warped in heat treat.I might indicate it true in the lathe chuck as well as possible,then use a carbide boring bar to face up to the .007 off the beat up surface to clean it."Pretty good"If it measured more...Hmmm. I'd have to think about it.Its a 30 year old Savage with a less than perfect barrel.Odds are I'd take just enough to true it,but there are limits.We had .007 bonus steel in the new bolt head.In theory,.007 off the diaphragm might give the same for and aft position of the bolt.Remember a trigger and sear work on the other end.
Put it back together with the sight straight and check headspace.If you are still snug,lap the lugs a bit.

[F. Guffey]

Ask yourself a simple question, would you attempt to shoot a gun when the bolt would not close on a a go gage ?

I am the only reloader that has gages that are shorter than go-gages, I have gages that are longer than field reject length gages. Keeping-up: that is what the OP did, I do ask myself, "why is it so difficult for smiths and reloaders to measure before and again after. And then there is that problem reloaders have when the bolt will not close; Why cant they determine by 'how much?'

Reloaders are locked into go, no and beyond gages. I measure the length of the chamber in thousandths. Reloaders can not decide on the concept of 'zero', they have a lot of excuses that are explained away with tolerance, and variances etc.

I measure the length of the chamber in thousandths

I do that three different ways without a head space gage.

F. Guffey

[Yosemite Steve]

Witout having a go and no go gauge here now, it will close on a full length sized case but not on the partial sized case that was custom fit when my chamber passed the go no go test. I will have it checked by the same gunsmith and when it passes I will insist on a refund.

[F. Guffey]

Witout having a go and no go gauge here now, it will close on a full length sized case but not on the partial sized case that was custom fit when my chamber passed the go no go test.

I suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; judging from all of the answers and response I am the only reloader that can do that. I am the one that makes datums, I collect datums and I have been known to purchased datums, a datum is all I need when measuring the length of a case from 'THE DATUM' to the case head with a dial caliper or depth gage or a height gage or a Wilson case gage when used with a straight edge and feeler gage. The head space gage is a fixed gage, they come in length of go-gage, no go-gage and field reject length gage. I can measure the length of the chamber in thousandths with a field reject length gage. I can also measure the length of a 30/06 chamber with a 280 Remington case, try to understand the 280 Remington case is .051" longer from the datum to the case head than the 30/06, I know reloaders that have trouble keeping up, I always suggest they write some of this stuff down but they choose to be threatened by something they do not understand.

F. Guffey