Shooting 45 ACP from a 410 shotgun? - Page 2

rightside · July 27, 2014, 06:40 AM

Smithy,
That definitely looks cool! I thought a shotgun that short had to not only have an 18" barrel to be legal, but be at least 36" in overall length to be legal.

Gunn Smithy · July 27, 2014, 06:59 AM

The cool thing I like about it was with the sight arrangement. The rear sights went into the trash and the holes plugged (soldered over) and polished. The aluminum rail was swapped out for a solid stainless one and milled to mate with the contours of the receiver. The flashlight has a 35mm bell on it so I got some 35mm rings. My son turned a bushing out of aluminum and split it was a key-way saw blade to take it down from 35mm to the smaller dimension of the rear of the flashlight (I don't remember off hand what the measurement was?). The light uses one of those double CR123's and is rechargeable. Or if both are drained I can just pick up a couple of the CR123's and be in business. Of course there is no front sight or bead, but here's the kicker.

In house type distances, the flashlight focus casts a shadow of the front of the barrel that is just about spot on for pellet impact. So holding the gun at waist height using the light, if it's in the light (highlighted by the barrel shadow) it's toast. The light also has some neat features (seven modes I think?). I have it permanently set in the strobe mode. I can see just fine, but anyone else on the receiving end will have a hard time just standing up. The loads I'm loading for it start with 000 ought buck, but the pellets are swaged into little cylinders of the same weight (70 grains) and tumble in flight giving a pie sized pattern out to 16-17 yards.

It's weird, with the blunderbuss muzzle and the fact that the chokes were cut off, the cylinders come out of a rifled barrel and immediately split apart, but are contained by the muzzle extension so that the pattern is pretty much the same from 5 feet to 35 feet from the muzzle. Then it starts going to pot, but I wouldn't want to shoot at a bad guy at that distance anyway, because I'd be asked "Why didn't you run?", which of course is a very good question. So I wanted a short range (house distances) blunderbuss and I think I've made just exactly that. Smithy.

green_MTman · July 27, 2014, 07:34 AM

a friend of mine slugged the barrel of a .410 and got .408,so the answer is HELL NO DONT DO THAT
the 410/45 long colt guns are either double barrel or have exchangable barrels.NO SANE PERSON EVER FIRED A .451 BULLET FROM A .410 BARREL

TXAZ · July 27, 2014, 08:25 AM

If you decide to try it, make sure to have it videotaped and put on YouTube. The rest of us would like to see what really happened.
In all seriousness, bad idea / no bueno / ka-beer moosh-kah-la / don't.

The guys that do that kind of weapons testing have robotic shielded setups for safety.

"You can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their back... Or the epitaphs on their graves".

A400 Fan · July 27, 2014, 08:53 AM

Quote:

.

Smithy,
That definitely looks cool! I thought a shotgun that short had to not only have an 18" barrel to be legal, but be at least 36" in overall length to be legal.

That is classified as a handgun if I am not mistaken that just so happens to also fire a .410.

**44 AMP** · July 27, 2014, 10:28 AM

Quote:

It is my understanding that a shotgun that can fire 410 gauge shells as well as 45 Long Colt.

NO!!!!!!!

You have it exactly backwards!!!

The combo caliber guns .45Colt/.410 (note how its written) the Judge, etc. Even the T/C Contender are .45 caliber guns, that happen to be able to fire the .410 shotshell. NOT the other way around.

You can make a long gun to fire .45Colt/.410, and as long as it meets the Federal (& state, if any) requirements for length, (both barrel and overall length) it can be rifled, or smoothbore, and be legal.

Rifled, your performance with .410 shot shells is going to suck. Even though the .410 is undersize for the bore, it is close enough that the rifling will have a spin effect on the shot, while gives a "donut" shaped pattern (hole with no shot in the middle). Legally it will be a rifle.

If you make it smoothbore, then legally its a shotgun. And, since you get rather poor accuracy from a smoothbore .45 using .45 Colt ammo, there's no point. A regular .410 shotgun is better.

The combo handguns are all rifled, they have to be, in order to meet federal law and not be considered "sawed off" shotguns.

Don't shoot .45 caliber ammo (any) in a .410!!!

Also, due to slight dimensional differences, you need a different chamber to shoot .45 Colt and .45ACP. Note that the Ruger Blackhawk convertible .45Colt/.45ACP uses two different cylinders, one for each round.

Also, FWIW, a .410 shell will not chamber in a standard .45 Colt chamber. The .45 chamber has to be cut to allow the extra length of the .410 shell, otherwise, it won't fit.

jeager106 · July 27, 2014, 11:37 AM

I've fired the Judge with both .45 Colt & .410 shotloads.
I deem it a fine close range rabbit getter with #6 shot, potentially a self defense round with 410 buck.
NO WAY would I shoot that flame belching thing w/o ear protection.
I'd like to see b-gel test of the short bbl'd .410 buck loads at, say 15 feet.
I wonder about penetration???

Gunn Smithy · July 27, 2014, 03:48 PM

A400 Fan: Just to let you in on the legal numbers: For a rifle its 16" on the barrel and 26" overall. Shotguns are 18" on the barrel and 26" overall. Now usually folks will go .5" more or sometimes squeak it by only 1/4" over each dimension just to be on the safe side of things. In no way has it ever been 36" for overall length for either rifle or shotgun. Good grief just check out some of you guns next to a yard stick and see what I'm talking about. Smithy.

A400 Fan · July 27, 2014, 03:56 PM

I know that, my quote was from the OP who had the numbers incorrect, but it doesn't hurt to post those facts again for many who may not know

WV_gunner · July 27, 2014, 05:11 PM

Flame belching gun? What exactly are you shooting through it? And I believe there's more than one grade of these guns. Has anyone else noticed the ones Walmart offer have a stock with more red in it and its much glossier? All of the ones in gun stores I've seen have no gloss on the stocks. Makes me wonder if the Walmart guns are made cheaper, like their electronics. I do know I got mine the year they came out, maybe the newer ones aren't as good, I don't know. But mine is excellent, and yes it is quiet. I have shot it without ear protection when I was hunting.

darkgael · July 30, 2014, 02:39 PM

Another note to the OP or anyone else thinking about trying 45 ACP in a .410. or even in .45/.410.
Remember that bot the .45 Colt and the .410 shotshell have rims to control their headspace.
The 45 ACP is a rimless cartridge. Under normal use the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth on a little shoulder machined into the chamber.
Chances are that will not be in a .410 barrel.
Pete

A400 Fan · July 30, 2014, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Makes me wonder if the Walmart guns are made cheaper

No, Walmart buys the same guns as everyone else. In the South they get theirs from Ellett Brothers Distributors so there is no way they have cheaper guns made than anyone else. They just buy in larger volume. That is not to say that Walmart, like Lew Horton or Davidson's, might not have a special edition made from time to time like they did, IIRC, with an image of Sam Walton on a gun - but that is the exception, not the rule.

WV_gunner · August 2, 2014, 12:57 PM

Mine must just have a flatter gloss than the newer ones I suppose where mine is an earlier.

To the op, if they are even still reading this, the only gun I'm aware of firing .45 ACP and .410 would be the S&W Governor, you could turn it into a long gun if you wanted.

gyvel · August 2, 2014, 01:50 PM

Slightly off topic, but many decades ago I knew an old West Virginia hillbilly who told me that, when he was a kid, they used to fire .410s in .45-70 Trapdoors. He told me that they used to "swell a little." LOL! Of course, this was ca. 1925-1930. Trapdoor Springfields were probably about $1.50 or so then.

Now, an early .41 Long Colt has an outside lubricated bullet diameter of .410, so you might get away with that in your shotgun. Ammo with that bullet diameter is most likely going to an old black powder load, so you aren't' going to find many of them anyway. I still wouldn't recommend it, though.

And, unfortunately, it looks like the .41 Magnum will also chamber in a .410; I guess it's just a matter of time before we hear about some moron trying that.

Also, looking at the dimensions, I'm not sure a .45 ACP OR a .45 Colt will chamber in a .410 shotgun.

A400 Fan · August 2, 2014, 05:46 PM

Quote:

they used to fire .410s in .45-70 Trapdoors

But NOT the other way around

xzqzq · December 24, 2014, 04:04 AM

I have shot my friend's Circuit Judge several times, and it seems to handle both .45lc and .410 fairly well... only thing I noticed to dislike was the escaping gasses if you are standing to the right of the shooter....the left side of the cylinder is shrouded...

I like shooting .45lc brass in my .410 single shot, as well as .444 Marlin. With a muzzle I.D. of .395", I keep the projectile smaller than the opening. Use 00 Buck, not 000--- , and .38 wad-cutters in .45 sabots, for the .45lc brass. Works surprisingly well.

Double Naught Spy · December 24, 2014, 01:32 PM

Quote:

The Circuit Judge works great and is surprisingly accurate. I enjoy mine. And they are almost .22lr quiet with .45 Colt.

Quote:

Before you call me a liar, have you ever fired one?

I have. It sounded a lot louder than the .22 lr. I shoot.

RMcL · January 2, 2015, 03:27 AM

A bit of background:

The .410 shotgun cartridge evolved from .44WCF/.44-40 shot cartridges originally made for smoothbore rifles and handguns often used in "wild west" shows. So the .410 today has approximately the same size rim and maximum cartridge case diameter as the old .38-40 and .44-40 cartridges.

Fast forward:

Some years back, Taurus had prototypes of their revolver initially in .44-40/.410 on display at the NRA Annual Convention. They were asking convention attendees their opinion of this new concept. Taurus representatives said in order to import these revolvers had to be rifled and had to chamber a "regular" handgun cartridge as well. I heard a number of comments that a .45 Colt/.410 combination would be better because the .44-40 was obsolete and hard to find.

When the chance came to examine the prototype and talk with a Taurus representative, I suggested that the metalic cartridge combination of the .38/40 and .410 would be the best to build a successful shot revolver around. The base of the .38-40 would closely fit with the .410 and the "rattle fit" of smaller .40 caliber bullet would allow for a small amount of choke in a .41 caliber rifled barrel with very slow twist rifling. Such a combination would make for a great .410 shot revolver.

Well the .45 Colt/.410 combination with a .45 caliber rifled barrel won out as more of a dual purpose concept than a dedicated shot revolver. These revolvers are .45 caliber revolvers that can also shoot .410 gauge shotshells in their extra-long chambers and .45 caliber barrels.

Note: The .38-40 actually a .40 caliber round.

MajorDanger · January 2, 2015, 04:51 AM

This guy explains the whole thing really well. Don't let the name of the video fool you. I thought it was going to be foolish until I watched it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngxGT2U6Rw

I never really thought about any of that until I watched the video but he makes some decent points.

July 27, 2014, 08:25 AM	#29
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	If you decide to try it, make sure to have it videotaped and put on YouTube. The rest of us would like to see what really happened. In all seriousness, bad idea / no bueno / ka-beer moosh-kah-la / don't. The guys that do that kind of weapons testing have robotic shielded setups for safety. "You can tell the pioneers by the arrows in their back... Or the epitaphs on their graves". __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

July 30, 2014, 02:39 PM	#36
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Cartridges Another note to the OP or anyone else thinking about trying 45 ACP in a .410. or even in .45/.410. Remember that bot the .45 Colt and the .410 shotshell have rims to control their headspace. The 45 ACP is a rimless cartridge. Under normal use the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth on a little shoulder machined into the chamber. Chances are that will not be in a .410 barrel. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; July 31, 2014 at 08:53 PM.

December 24, 2014, 04:04 AM	#41
xzqzq Member Join Date: October 27, 2010 Posts: 29	.410 Circuit Judge I have shot my friend's Circuit Judge several times, and it seems to handle both .45lc and .410 fairly well... only thing I noticed to dislike was the escaping gasses if you are standing to the right of the shooter....the left side of the cylinder is shrouded... I like shooting .45lc brass in my .410 single shot, as well as .444 Marlin. With a muzzle I.D. of .395", I keep the projectile smaller than the opening. Use 00 Buck, not 000--- , and .38 wad-cutters in .45 sabots, for the .45lc brass. Works surprisingly well.

July 27, 2014, 06:40 AM	#26
rightside Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 419	Smithy, That definitely looks cool! I thought a shotgun that short had to not only have an 18" barrel to be legal, but be at least 36" in overall length to be legal.

July 27, 2014, 06:59 AM	#27
Gunn Smithy Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2011 Location: CA's central valley Posts: 101	The cool thing I like about it was with the sight arrangement. The rear sights went into the trash and the holes plugged (soldered over) and polished. The aluminum rail was swapped out for a solid stainless one and milled to mate with the contours of the receiver. The flashlight has a 35mm bell on it so I got some 35mm rings. My son turned a bushing out of aluminum and split it was a key-way saw blade to take it down from 35mm to the smaller dimension of the rear of the flashlight (I don't remember off hand what the measurement was?). The light uses one of those double CR123's and is rechargeable. Or if both are drained I can just pick up a couple of the CR123's and be in business. Of course there is no front sight or bead, but here's the kicker. In house type distances, the flashlight focus casts a shadow of the front of the barrel that is just about spot on for pellet impact. So holding the gun at waist height using the light, if it's in the light (highlighted by the barrel shadow) it's toast. The light also has some neat features (seven modes I think?). I have it permanently set in the strobe mode. I can see just fine, but anyone else on the receiving end will have a hard time just standing up. The loads I'm loading for it start with 000 ought buck, but the pellets are swaged into little cylinders of the same weight (70 grains) and tumble in flight giving a pie sized pattern out to 16-17 yards. It's weird, with the blunderbuss muzzle and the fact that the chokes were cut off, the cylinders come out of a rifled barrel and immediately split apart, but are contained by the muzzle extension so that the pattern is pretty much the same from 5 feet to 35 feet from the muzzle. Then it starts going to pot, but I wouldn't want to shoot at a bad guy at that distance anyway, because I'd be asked "Why didn't you run?", which of course is a very good question. So I wanted a short range (house distances) blunderbuss and I think I've made just exactly that. Smithy.

July 27, 2014, 07:34 AM	#28
green_MTman Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2014 Location: southeastern Vermont,USA Posts: 325	a friend of mine slugged the barrel of a .410 and got .408,so the answer is HELL NO DONT DO THAT the 410/45 long colt guns are either double barrel or have exchangable barrels.NO SANE PERSON EVER FIRED A .451 BULLET FROM A .410 BARREL

July 27, 2014, 11:37 AM	#32
jeager106 Junior member Join Date: November 24, 2006 Location: N.E. Oh. Posts: 527	I've fired the Judge with both .45 Colt & .410 shotloads. I deem it a fine close range rabbit getter with #6 shot, potentially a self defense round with 410 buck. NO WAY would I shoot that flame belching thing w/o ear protection. I'd like to see b-gel test of the short bbl'd .410 buck loads at, say 15 feet. I wonder about penetration???

July 27, 2014, 03:48 PM	#33
Gunn Smithy Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2011 Location: CA's central valley Posts: 101	A400 Fan: Just to let you in on the legal numbers: For a rifle its 16" on the barrel and 26" overall. Shotguns are 18" on the barrel and 26" overall. Now usually folks will go .5" more or sometimes squeak it by only 1/4" over each dimension just to be on the safe side of things. In no way has it ever been 36" for overall length for either rifle or shotgun. Good grief just check out some of you guns next to a yard stick and see what I'm talking about. Smithy.

July 27, 2014, 03:56 PM	#34
A400 Fan Junior member Join Date: June 17, 2014 Posts: 242	I know that, my quote was from the OP who had the numbers incorrect, but it doesn't hurt to post those facts again for many who may not know

July 27, 2014, 05:11 PM	#35
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	Flame belching gun? What exactly are you shooting through it? And I believe there's more than one grade of these guns. Has anyone else noticed the ones Walmart offer have a stock with more red in it and its much glossier? All of the ones in gun stores I've seen have no gloss on the stocks. Makes me wonder if the Walmart guns are made cheaper, like their electronics. I do know I got mine the year they came out, maybe the newer ones aren't as good, I don't know. But mine is excellent, and yes it is quiet. I have shot it without ear protection when I was hunting.

August 2, 2014, 12:57 PM	#38
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	Mine must just have a flatter gloss than the newer ones I suppose where mine is an earlier. To the op, if they are even still reading this, the only gun I'm aware of firing .45 ACP and .410 would be the S&W Governor, you could turn it into a long gun if you wanted.

August 2, 2014, 01:50 PM	#39
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Slightly off topic, but many decades ago I knew an old West Virginia hillbilly who told me that, when he was a kid, they used to fire .410s in .45-70 Trapdoors. He told me that they used to "swell a little." LOL! Of course, this was ca. 1925-1930. Trapdoor Springfields were probably about $1.50 or so then. Now, an early .41 Long Colt has an outside lubricated bullet diameter of .410, so you might get away with that in your shotgun. Ammo with that bullet diameter is most likely going to an old black powder load, so you aren't' going to find many of them anyway. I still wouldn't recommend it, though. And, unfortunately, it looks like the .41 Magnum will also chamber in a .410; I guess it's just a matter of time before we hear about some moron trying that. Also, looking at the dimensions, I'm not sure a .45 ACP OR a .45 Colt will chamber in a .410 shotgun.

January 2, 2015, 03:27 AM	#43
RMcL Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 277	A bit of background: The .410 shotgun cartridge evolved from .44WCF/.44-40 shot cartridges originally made for smoothbore rifles and handguns often used in "wild west" shows. So the .410 today has approximately the same size rim and maximum cartridge case diameter as the old .38-40 and .44-40 cartridges. Fast forward: Some years back, Taurus had prototypes of their revolver initially in .44-40/.410 on display at the NRA Annual Convention. They were asking convention attendees their opinion of this new concept. Taurus representatives said in order to import these revolvers had to be rifled and had to chamber a "regular" handgun cartridge as well. I heard a number of comments that a .45 Colt/.410 combination would be better because the .44-40 was obsolete and hard to find. When the chance came to examine the prototype and talk with a Taurus representative, I suggested that the metalic cartridge combination of the .38/40 and .410 would be the best to build a successful shot revolver around. The base of the .38-40 would closely fit with the .410 and the "rattle fit" of smaller .40 caliber bullet would allow for a small amount of choke in a .41 caliber rifled barrel with very slow twist rifling. Such a combination would make for a great .410 shot revolver. Well the .45 Colt/.410 combination with a .45 caliber rifled barrel won out as more of a dual purpose concept than a dedicated shot revolver. These revolvers are .45 caliber revolvers that can also shoot .410 gauge shotshells in their extra-long chambers and .45 caliber barrels. Note: The .38-40 actually a .40 caliber round.

January 2, 2015, 04:51 AM	#44
MajorDanger Member Join Date: December 23, 2014 Posts: 16	This guy explains the whole thing really well. Don't let the name of the video fool you. I thought it was going to be foolish until I watched it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bngxGT2U6Rw I never really thought about any of that until I watched the video but he makes some decent points.