Need advice on 1951 colt navy - Page 2

Rifleman1776 · March 7, 2012, 09:08 AM

Those chambers look loaded.

Do not attempt to clean up too much. Just oil well and wait until you can find an expert to look at it. If truly old, and I think it may be (your photos are the pits), you have some value there. Nice find.
I don't believe replacement nipples will hurt the collectors value.

DPris · March 7, 2012, 12:55 PM

Some observations:
The hammer appears to be severely damaged, with the "sight" section broken off & the dimple in its face. Agree it's not shootable.

DO NOT USE AGGRESSIVE METHODS TO REMOVE RUST! Just oil it lightly for the moment. Do nothing to remove the patina. Value is reduced already, don't make it worse. Do not polish anything, do not scrub it with anything, do not use sandpaper or Brillo pads or anything similar.

Even as is, it's worth more than a Mosin.

And, I really hope you have your mother's permission to be disposing of her property.
Denis

Fingers McGee · March 7, 2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

How is it a late model if they were made til 1873? 1956 is only 5 years after the first one...i know the fourth model had "address sam l colt new york city america" whereas mine doesnt have the america, just new york...

Navies are classified as early, middle, and late 3rd models, and early, middle and late 4th models depending on characteristics. approx dates are:

Early 3rd - 1851-1853
Middle 3rd - 1853-1854
Late 3rd - 1854-1857
Early 4th - 1858-1862
Middle 4th - 1862-1863
Late 4th - 1863-1873

Doc Hoy · March 7, 2012, 01:58 PM

I am no expert on historical originals and their values but I agree that adding new nipples might not hurt the value.

On the other hand I doubt the thirty or forty bucks you would invest would increase the value enough to make it worth while.

If you have to mess with the cylinder to get the new nipples to turn into the holes the story might be different.

Is it correct to think that originals have a value that declines if you mess with them?

I do like your photos a little more than the Rifleman did.

pohill · March 7, 2012, 02:47 PM

The problem is finding an "expert." A local "expert" sold me an original Whitney as a "pre-Italian repro", whatever that means.
You could contact James Julia in Maine - send them some pics and they'll give you a free, basic appraisal. I did once. I might be going to their pre-auction viewing this weekend.
http://jamesdjulia.com/

Hawg · March 7, 2012, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Those chambers look loaded.

I don't understand you saying that when you can see all the way down to the nipple holes in one pic.

DPris · March 7, 2012, 05:07 PM

Among the photos he posted on another site, I can.
It's camera, lighting & angle that makes it look like the chambers are loaded here.

Denis

Hawg · March 7, 2012, 05:34 PM

You can see them in one pic here. You can even see the chamber cuts in most of them.

DPris · March 7, 2012, 06:01 PM

He posted a link to a bundle of photos on the Colt Forum.
Some are clearer.
Denis

Wildhipoint · March 8, 2012, 02:01 PM

Thanks for all the help guys. What should I use to remove the rust in the cylinders? I dont want to ruin this gun! But I want to get it looking as good as possible without devaluing the originality of it.

hoof hearted · March 8, 2012, 02:16 PM

I would use a brass bore brush on a cordless drill in the "chambers" (the holes in the cylinder) and be methodical using a penetrating oil. It won't hurt the value if you don't try to remove any exterior coloring.........

I am still interested in the pistol but your terms of me making offers in public forums precludes me from going any further. I am not going to "play" the bidding war thing.

Regards, HH

DPris · March 8, 2012, 02:29 PM

As mentioned on the CF, a non-aggressive solvent like Break Free shouldn't damage the patina.
If you can find somebody competent enough to break it down completely, soaking in kerosene is a traditional rust remover.

May be necessary to use a penetrating oil to get the screws out, do not try it yourself.
I'd personally be reluctant to take a power tool to the chambers.

You indicated on the other site your Mother's OK with all this?
Denis

Wildhipoint · March 8, 2012, 03:40 PM

Yea i would love to verify the seriAl number on the grips but I would afraid to strip one of the screws out...and YES my mother is all good with it as she gave me permission to take it out of the safety deposit box and do with as I see fit...

And if you would like to make me an offer privately by email my address is [email protected]gh I'm pretty reluctant to sell..

So should I use the break free on the whole gun or just barrell bore and cylinder chambers?

DPris · March 8, 2012, 03:48 PM

Break Free anywhere you can get it into or on the gun.

I'd still suggest a pro breakdown to get at the internal nooks & crannies, but for now pickling as much as you yourself can is advisable.
Denis

Wildhipoint · March 8, 2012, 05:37 PM

Cool...I'm going to take it to a local gun shop "Nesbit's" in western PA tommorrow so I can have him tell me what he thinks and hopefully they sell Breakfree there...

Also after doing more research I now can see the faint cylinder scene on the gun which I posted on my photobucket account although it is hard to see on photo...

Wildhipoint · March 8, 2012, 05:40 PM

Here is the link for the new photos...

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/wildcamaro/

rdstrain49 · March 8, 2012, 06:34 PM

I can tell you from personal experience that when the day comes that you have years and wisdom to your credit, you will look back on selling that Colt as one of the biggest mistakes you ever made.

BTW almost any modern rifle will shoot reasonably well at 500 yds. It's the rifleman not the rifle.

Wildhipoint · March 8, 2012, 08:46 PM

That's good advice, like you said you can't value a family heirloom in terms of money...

Wildhipoint · March 10, 2012, 01:04 AM

Well I cleaned the gun up and got it a new storage case as I felt like I was doing the gun a disservice by just caring it around bare (just waiting to drop it). I also oiled every part of the gun with clenzoil which seemed to be a great cleaner/oil which I would assume is very comparable to Breakfree. Posted some new pics after cleaning.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/wildcamaro/

Also I took it to get appraised by a local gun shop/ "colt" guy...he said it was worth about $110" retail, which I assume to be a little light based on his place of business...bottom line I'm def going to hold on to this piece.

It was all worth when the very second I walked in the shop an older gentleman (who i learned later was a big colt collector) leaving the shop stopped me in the doorway and asked what I had...I said "a 51 colt navy" and he replied "what is it? A reproduction?" which I politely countered with "no, it's the real deal." ...I don't think I've ever been so proud of something in my life...thanks again for all the info/help/direction...hopefully I will be passing down to a future son of my own...

Wildhipoint · March 10, 2012, 01:21 AM

Little error...I meant $1100 on appraisal...

Hawg · March 10, 2012, 07:47 AM

No offense intended but unless it cleaned up a lot better than it looked in the pics I didn't see an 1100 dollar gun.

Doc Hoy · March 10, 2012, 08:58 AM

You can be rightfully proud of this piece of your family's history.

Especially given the connection to members of your family. You have the pistol and you have your family and each have some inherent value independently. But when you consider the two things together it is far more than twice as good.

Let that pistol get away and both the pistol and the family are damaged.

I am gratified (not that it should matter whether or not I am gratified) that you intend to keep it.

rodent.22 · March 10, 2012, 10:35 AM

I would be inclined to go with Hoof Hearted on the cordless drill, absolute speed control, all sides of the chambers get equal cleaning, and not all day about it either. Of course he's a professional. Plus the nipple threads could be cleaned rather easily, I would think. A replacement nipple with a slot sharply cut into the threads would turn into the cylinder threads and clean them up easily. BUT if I was going to sell this gun, I would do NOTHING to it. Not even oil it. As found would be more attractive to a buyer. IMHO

Wildhipoint · March 10, 2012, 11:54 AM

No offense taken,but value is what somebody is willing to pay for it...either way it don't matter bc I'm sure the value will only increase as I'm sure more navies will be lost than found in the future...I cant wait til I'm 80 years old, lol, and the gun will be 200 years old...I think I'm going to buy a reproduction just so I can fire one without worrying about ruining my original...the shop I went to had a matching pair of uberti navy repros that I think would be cool to own...And at $500 for the pair is a pretty good deal in my eyes. I see a lot of people speaking highly of the uberti's...

sltm1 · March 10, 2012, 12:37 PM

Wildhipoint, I too am glad you're keeping it!! The hammer could be repaired and made to look unaltered and nipples for 1st gen Colts can be found at Track Of The Wolf, they also fit perfectly in my Savage Navy. Fact is, with a little TLC it could probably be made back into a shooter.

March 7, 2012, 01:58 PM	#29
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I agree with some of what Rifleman said I am no expert on historical originals and their values but I agree that adding new nipples might not hurt the value. On the other hand I doubt the thirty or forty bucks you would invest would increase the value enough to make it worth while. If you have to mess with the cylinder to get the new nipples to turn into the holes the story might be different. Is it correct to think that originals have a value that declines if you mess with them? I do like your photos a little more than the Rifleman did. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 10, 2012, 08:58 AM	#47
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	I agree with you WHP You can be rightfully proud of this piece of your family's history. Especially given the connection to members of your family. You have the pistol and you have your family and each have some inherent value independently. But when you consider the two things together it is far more than twice as good. Let that pistol get away and both the pistol and the family are damaged. I am gratified (not that it should matter whether or not I am gratified) that you intend to keep it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 7, 2012, 09:08 AM	#26
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Those chambers look loaded. Do not attempt to clean up too much. Just oil well and wait until you can find an expert to look at it. If truly old, and I think it may be (your photos are the pits), you have some value there. Nice find. I don't believe replacement nipples will hurt the collectors value.

March 7, 2012, 12:55 PM	#27
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Some observations: The hammer appears to be severely damaged, with the "sight" section broken off & the dimple in its face. Agree it's not shootable. DO NOT USE AGGRESSIVE METHODS TO REMOVE RUST! Just oil it lightly for the moment. Do nothing to remove the patina. Value is reduced already, don't make it worse. Do not polish anything, do not scrub it with anything, do not use sandpaper or Brillo pads or anything similar. Even as is, it's worth more than a Mosin. And, I really hope you have your mother's permission to be disposing of her property. Denis

March 7, 2012, 02:47 PM	#30
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	The problem is finding an "expert." A local "expert" sold me an original Whitney as a "pre-Italian repro", whatever that means. You could contact James Julia in Maine - send them some pics and they'll give you a free, basic appraisal. I did once. I might be going to their pre-auction viewing this weekend. http://jamesdjulia.com/

March 7, 2012, 05:07 PM	#32
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Among the photos he posted on another site, I can. It's camera, lighting & angle that makes it look like the chambers are loaded here. Denis

March 7, 2012, 05:34 PM	#33
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,211	You can see them in one pic here. You can even see the chamber cuts in most of them.

March 7, 2012, 06:01 PM	#34
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	He posted a link to a bundle of photos on the Colt Forum. Some are clearer. Denis

March 8, 2012, 02:01 PM	#35
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Thanks for all the help guys. What should I use to remove the rust in the cylinders? I dont want to ruin this gun! But I want to get it looking as good as possible without devaluing the originality of it.

March 8, 2012, 02:16 PM	#36
hoof hearted Member Join Date: December 21, 2011 Location: Texas Posts: 61	I would use a brass bore brush on a cordless drill in the "chambers" (the holes in the cylinder) and be methodical using a penetrating oil. It won't hurt the value if you don't try to remove any exterior coloring......... I am still interested in the pistol but your terms of me making offers in public forums precludes me from going any further. I am not going to "play" the bidding war thing. Regards, HH

March 8, 2012, 02:29 PM	#37
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	As mentioned on the CF, a non-aggressive solvent like Break Free shouldn't damage the patina. If you can find somebody competent enough to break it down completely, soaking in kerosene is a traditional rust remover. May be necessary to use a penetrating oil to get the screws out, do not try it yourself. I'd personally be reluctant to take a power tool to the chambers. You indicated on the other site your Mother's OK with all this? Denis

March 8, 2012, 03:40 PM	#38
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Yea i would love to verify the seriAl number on the grips but I would afraid to strip one of the screws out...and YES my mother is all good with it as she gave me permission to take it out of the safety deposit box and do with as I see fit... And if you would like to make me an offer privately by email my address is [email protected]gh I'm pretty reluctant to sell.. So should I use the break free on the whole gun or just barrell bore and cylinder chambers?

March 8, 2012, 03:48 PM	#39
DPris Member Emeritus Join Date: August 19, 2004 Posts: 7,133	Break Free anywhere you can get it into or on the gun. I'd still suggest a pro breakdown to get at the internal nooks & crannies, but for now pickling as much as you yourself can is advisable. Denis

March 8, 2012, 05:37 PM	#40
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Cool...I'm going to take it to a local gun shop "Nesbit's" in western PA tommorrow so I can have him tell me what he thinks and hopefully they sell Breakfree there... Also after doing more research I now can see the faint cylinder scene on the gun which I posted on my photobucket account although it is hard to see on photo...

March 8, 2012, 05:40 PM	#41
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Here is the link for the new photos... http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/wildcamaro/

March 8, 2012, 06:34 PM	#42
rdstrain49 Member Join Date: December 30, 2010 Location: South Central, Iowa Posts: 65	I can tell you from personal experience that when the day comes that you have years and wisdom to your credit, you will look back on selling that Colt as one of the biggest mistakes you ever made. BTW almost any modern rifle will shoot reasonably well at 500 yds. It's the rifleman not the rifle.

March 8, 2012, 08:46 PM	#43
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	That's good advice, like you said you can't value a family heirloom in terms of money...

March 10, 2012, 01:04 AM	#44
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Well I cleaned the gun up and got it a new storage case as I felt like I was doing the gun a disservice by just caring it around bare (just waiting to drop it). I also oiled every part of the gun with clenzoil which seemed to be a great cleaner/oil which I would assume is very comparable to Breakfree. Posted some new pics after cleaning. http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee374/wildcamaro/ Also I took it to get appraised by a local gun shop/ "colt" guy...he said it was worth about $110" retail, which I assume to be a little light based on his place of business...bottom line I'm def going to hold on to this piece. It was all worth when the very second I walked in the shop an older gentleman (who i learned later was a big colt collector) leaving the shop stopped me in the doorway and asked what I had...I said "a 51 colt navy" and he replied "what is it? A reproduction?" which I politely countered with "no, it's the real deal." ...I don't think I've ever been so proud of something in my life...thanks again for all the info/help/direction...hopefully I will be passing down to a future son of my own...

March 10, 2012, 01:21 AM	#45
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	Little error...I meant $1100 on appraisal...

March 10, 2012, 07:47 AM	#46
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,211	No offense intended but unless it cleaned up a lot better than it looked in the pics I didn't see an 1100 dollar gun.

March 10, 2012, 10:35 AM	#48
rodent.22 Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2010 Location: virginia woods Posts: 129	I would be inclined to go with Hoof Hearted on the cordless drill, absolute speed control, all sides of the chambers get equal cleaning, and not all day about it either. Of course he's a professional. Plus the nipple threads could be cleaned rather easily, I would think. A replacement nipple with a slot sharply cut into the threads would turn into the cylinder threads and clean them up easily. BUT if I was going to sell this gun, I would do NOTHING to it. Not even oil it. As found would be more attractive to a buyer. IMHO

March 10, 2012, 11:54 AM	#49
Wildhipoint Member Join Date: March 6, 2012 Posts: 34	No offense taken,but value is what somebody is willing to pay for it...either way it don't matter bc I'm sure the value will only increase as I'm sure more navies will be lost than found in the future...I cant wait til I'm 80 years old, lol, and the gun will be 200 years old...I think I'm going to buy a reproduction just so I can fire one without worrying about ruining my original...the shop I went to had a matching pair of uberti navy repros that I think would be cool to own...And at $500 for the pair is a pretty good deal in my eyes. I see a lot of people speaking highly of the uberti's...

March 10, 2012, 12:37 PM	#50
sltm1 Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 353	Wildhipoint, I too am glad you're keeping it!! The hammer could be repaired and made to look unaltered and nipples for 1st gen Colts can be found at Track Of The Wolf, they also fit perfectly in my Savage Navy. Fact is, with a little TLC it could probably be made back into a shooter.