The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old December 1, 2001, 03:46 PM   #26
Will Beararms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,700
There's one simple tenant to live by in the shotgun world: pumps are more reliable than semi-autos--------------period. Therefore a pump is the best tool. With a semi-auto, it's not a question of how it will break down but when. I've seen it with all of them.

I am anything but armchair and typically I shy away from any topic I am unfamiliar with but in this case I know what I am talking about. Some may not like but its a fact and call me cocky if you will but it's just reality. Rifle? I am a novice. Handguns? I am a novice novice at best. Shotguns you ask? I know em.

I'm sorry but dragging a shotgun through mud, sand and freezing water---------not to mention the occasional times they are dropped in the water totally and then fired within minutes with no cleaning is a realistic measure of performance. You're telling me that bring a shotgun out of a warm environment to the shock of 20F and then back again after shooting fifty to hundred rounds per day and not cleaning it for weeks isn't punishment?

No sir we're not talking arm chair in my case and I will still tell you that the pump is more reliable. To imply that favoring a pump is akin to a single shot pistol is well let's just say a long reach. If you think the best win out a politically controlled trials I have some things to sell you. Ask any soldier slogging through mud or sticky desert sand about the M9's if you need help grasping the concept.

Nothing personal you see but common sense is common sense. If a soldier can't cycle a pump, maybe they need a desk job. Having a soldier field service a Benelli semi auto beyond field stripping? Get real.
__________________
"Without a rifle you are nothing, worthless, you are waiting for death, any minute, any second."
-- Aron Bielski
Will Beararms is offline  
Old December 1, 2001, 04:18 PM   #27
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
 
Join Date: October 10, 1998
Posts: 665
I'll say this again - does anyone have any first hand, actual experience with the firearm in question?

Comparing your SBE in the duck blind to a weapon designed expressly for combat is like apples and oranges. The SBE is inertia / recoil operated. The M4 is gas operated. It's capable of mounting heavy night vision equipment and other accessories that would render useless the standard Benelli.

From the Bennelli M4 page -
http://www.benelliusa.com/m4_super90/index.htm
Quote:
Benelli engineers developed and patented a unique new "auto regulating gas operated" (ARGO) system. Dual, stainless self-cleaning pistons located just ahead of the chamber operate directly against the proven rotating bolt and eliminate the need for complex linkages found on other gas autos. The result..."Marine" tough reliability under the harshest environmental conditions.

Five samples of the Benelli M4 Super 90 were delivered to Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland on August 4, 1998. The guns were put through an intensive, grueling test for safety, function and performance. Subjecting them to mud, sand, baking heat and extreme cold, the M4s beat out the competition to be chosen as the new U.S. "Joint Service Combat Shotgun."


About corrosion:
Quote:
Steel parts are black matte phosphated and aluminum matte hard-anodized for low visibility in night operations and corrosion resistance.
Hard-anodization is a mother of a coating - I know first hand because to prove points I regularly abuse hard anodized SureFire's compared to the standard models. We all know about how "parkerizing" holds up. Judging from the above picture and the stripped models I looked at first hand, it looks extremely easy to clean and keep cleaned - easier than a M16 truthfully.

As for the "operator error" - if operating a shotgun is so easy under stress, how come we still hear about "short stroking" and all sorts of other failures? Much easier to pull be a charging handle and release... plus you get a semi consistant stoppage drill across all your long arms.

Just my 2cents as a former grunt.

Kevin
__________________
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
Owner, BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
spark@onestopknifeshop.com is offline  
Old December 1, 2001, 05:38 PM   #28
Will Beararms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,700
You are taking Benelli's word for it and believe me they said the same things and do say the same things about the other shotguns they make with durability and corrosion resistance. Heck Beretta lauds the M9 as well.

The fact is a Remington 1187 is a better shotgun than a Benelli SBE. I have seen the 1187 shoot circles around Benellis in durability terms thought they may not actually shoot as fast.

With the semi-auto, You are relying on a series of small parts that get banged up pretty badly in a shotgun. They break and fail I don't care who makes the weapon. I love my Beretta 390's but they too will eventually fail while my 870 keeeps going and going and going.

Any 870 could be designed to work with light or lazer systems and the design materials could be treated to resist corrosion. I'm no grunt nor am I a writer or expert but I guarantee you I have used all types of shotguns as much as any soldier or law enforcement officer anywhere. As far as operator error goes, it's easier to make a semi jam than it is to make a pump jam. I have had it happen with both.

I am not trying to engage in a grudge match but again in thirty years of sporting clays, duck hunting, quail hunting,pheasant hunting and dove hunting. I have never seen a semi that is more reliable than an a pump. What I have seen is that semi-autos spit out extractors, jam and corrode and you can bank on it.

Time will tell. I may be eating crow in the future but I have a cast iron stomach.
__________________
"Without a rifle you are nothing, worthless, you are waiting for death, any minute, any second."
-- Aron Bielski
Will Beararms is offline  
Old December 1, 2001, 09:24 PM   #29
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
 
Join Date: October 10, 1998
Posts: 665
Quote:
The fact is a Remington 1187 is a better shotgun than a Benelli SBE.
Whoopee-crap - I don't see the Marines going with the Super Black Eagle, do you?

Quote:
With the semi-auto, You are relying on a series of small parts that get banged up pretty badly in a shotgun. They break and fail I don't care who makes the weapon.
Eventually, on a long enough time line, anything will break. Lets look at the components involved -
Rotating bolt head: Hmmm, we have those on AR's all the way up to .50 cal - seem to do just fine.
Trigger group: Again, if common parts can handle .50, 12 guage shouldn't be a problem.
Gas pistons: We use them in the M240 and M249 machine guns, they should work dandy in a shotgun.
Recoil buffer and bolt group - seem to be adapted from the already successful Benelli's. Other than the "extractor" problem, how many other failures are common?

Guess what else? Gas operated versus pump operated means true one handed use - how many pump action shotguns offer that? Not to easy to pump when you've been shot in the arm.

Furthermore, with the incorporation of stainless steel parts where it counts, it sounds like this is tougher than your standard Benelli. If it has a stainless receiver, it definately is.

Quote:
I am not trying to engage in a grudge match but again in thirty years of sporting clays, duck hunting, quail hunting,pheasant hunting and dove hunting. I have never seen a semi that is more reliable than an a pump.
And again, you are looking at dove / clay / whatever guns not primarily designed for combat. Polished Walnut is not designed to be submerged for hours on a combat swim. Bluing is not as corrosion resistant as parkerization. Standard (type 2) anodization is not the same as Military grade type 3 hard anodization.

You can have 100 years experience driving Model T's and that doesn't make you qualified to comment on how a Ferrari handles without touching it.

So again, this all leads back to the "I've never seen it work, so therefore it can't possibly work" syndrome. Again, if yours was the prevalent thought, we'd still be shooting lever actions and single action revolvers.

Kevin
__________________
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
Owner, BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
spark@onestopknifeshop.com is offline  
Old December 1, 2001, 10:31 PM   #30
Will Beararms
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 2,700
I hold to my position. The semi-auto will not be as reliable as the pump. Serious fowl hunters who start out in March in Hawaii turkey hunting and go until the end of January each year will shoot a shotgun as much as any soldier will----------probably more. I base my conclusions from this type of usage not just a couple of seasons.

One handed operation? Boy I'll bet that'll be real accurate. I think I'll stay with an aimed shouldered position. One handed? Yep I can see that-----------shot one is level and by the end of the magazine, the barrel is straight up in the air.

Meanwhile, let's see what happens like I told ya, I can eat crow. The ultimate test will be not four or five hand-picked shotguns during an accelerated trial bit actual use over a span of say two years. I'ma patient. I can wait.

For the record, I like lever actions and I would take a garand over a .223 or 7.62 x 39 any day of the week.
__________________
"Without a rifle you are nothing, worthless, you are waiting for death, any minute, any second."
-- Aron Bielski
Will Beararms is offline  
Old December 2, 2001, 03:10 AM   #31
spark@onestopknifeshop.com
Wise Guy
 
Join Date: October 10, 1998
Posts: 665
Yeah because, after all, every modern army in the world is using lever actions and 8 round clips.


I give up - I bow to your "wisdom" - quail hunting shotguns are obviously a "match" for combat shotguns, which is why we see so many trap guns in use with the Border patrol and FBI. The conditions are exactly the same after all.

Failure to maintain your weapon is neglect on the part of the operator. Period. If you haven't learned that in 30 years of duck hunting, no wonder you like pump guns so much.

Have fun with your cap and ball weapons.

Kevin
__________________
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
Owner, BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
spark@onestopknifeshop.com is offline  
Old December 2, 2001, 03:13 AM   #32
DML
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 24, 2000
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 257
You guys can argue the merits of one type of shotgun over the other until the cows come home and it won't prove a thing. "The proof will be in the pudding" as they say.

Personally, I think the Benelli will prove to be a big mistake. I smell the "brother-in-law" effect here. Someone is calling in favors to get a deal like this. That's just my opinion, but I fail to see how the Mossberg 590-A1 proved to be unsatisfactory when in the trials to select a new shotgun it was the only one to stand up to the military destruction tests. Now, all of a sudden, it's no good. Yeah, right.

Let's see what happens to the Benelli a year or two down the road.
__________________
Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
DML is offline  
Old December 2, 2001, 06:54 AM   #33
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: May 2, 1999
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 3,605
In a couple of years I'll unlock this thread...
__________________
http://www.scfirearms.org/
Al Thompson is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08037 seconds with 9 queries