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Old November 19, 2001, 01:28 PM   #26
LawDog
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Overuse of katas, and yes, most of them are over-used, can result in predictability in the stylist.

Predictability is a Bad Thing.

If you practice Roof Block -- Low Front Snap Kick -- Right Backfist over and over and over again until you automatically follow that sequence, then some canny opponent is going to force you to use the Roof Block because he'll know that you'll hand him the kick and the backfist right afterwards.

In sparring that can be painful. On the street it can be somewhat worse than just painful.

The old proverb goes: "Moderation in all things." That includes kata.

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Old November 19, 2001, 01:35 PM   #27
CMichael
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As my instructors says the only way to learn how to fight is to fight.

He did teach akidio techniques and some jiujitsu techniques as well.

Katas don't teach how to fight.

I think the difficulty in fighting is that you have to fight someone else at the same time someone is fighting you.

Most blows are close in.

In other words a nice pretty round house kick to the head doesn't have much of a place in a real fight.

A kick to the knee, groin, would be more effective. Perhaps a thumb or blow to the neck.

Long pretty punches and kicks are very unrealistic in real fighting.

Michael
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Old November 19, 2001, 06:48 PM   #28
boris_01
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Shy-man and Trimation, Seems as though you guys are in avoidance with the competition issue. Trimation said that competition makes you slow and takes away your reflexes? Get your head out of your ass. How can you believe that? Any time you can ACTUALLY use a technique in an unplanned, uncorreagraphed, spontaneous situation, it will IMPROVE reflexes. If this is the excuses that you have to use to make yourself feel better about your inabilities, then good for you. I just hope that you never have your abilities put to the test in a real situation. You are definitely living in a fantasy world if you believe that you will become adept at any fighting style with out make contact. Thats like learning to swim without getting in the water. SURE competition is not reality. I know, I know, I know. BUT with out actually getting into a street fight, it is the only safe, controlled semirealistic alternative. And Trimation, Man come on! If you are afraid to try competition, who do you think is going to believe that actually went out and got into real fights? Ha. And you said basically that my opinions come from watching movies and that I believe what I hear without experiencing it for myself? Ha Ha. I've got the video, the trophies, the ring record, the scars and the bad knees to prove my experience. What do you have? Maybe some pretty belt that you tie your pajamas with and impress all of the little kids in your neighborhood with?
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Old November 19, 2001, 09:31 PM   #29
Trimation
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boris_01

typical uneducated response.

I can't count on my hands the number of times I have used my training in hand to hand combat situations and I have never lost a fight. The point of my comment was this: in competition there are rules so it is not a real situation. That means you cannot do things you would do in a normal combat situation and that means when you are in a real combat situation you will not do it then either. Competition creates bad habits. So boris_01 bend over and put your head in your ass.


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Old November 19, 2001, 10:26 PM   #30
boris_01
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Typical uneducated response? Again Ha. I've done stated my proofs. You still have not stated yours. Your response is a typical Nerd response. Your right. You probably can't count on your hands the number of times you had to use your training. If there are'nt any. I've been in many competitions and have never had to use my training in a real situation. I'm no fool. I don't need the chance of injury, legal complications or to prove anything to some knuckleheads. Most people don't have to. Especially people who actually train. They avoid any unnecessary confrontations. No need to prove yourself if you are confident of your abilities. And if I can come out on top in the ring or on the mat, then I most definitely can come out on top on the street. I don't believe any of your replies of fighting. I think you are some geek who is trying to convince everyone else that you are knowlegeable. Sorry I see through it. Again, If you are afraid of competiting, you are not going to get into real fights. And again I understand about competition not being a real street fight. And that there are rules prohibiting some techniques that you would use in a real self defense situation. BUT. It is a good venue for using the techniques that are allowed. You do punch and kick in your style don't you? Or do you just scare them with your kata and Bruce Lee T-shirt? And if you think that competing is such a waste, then try it in a good venue. Like kick boxing or sport ju jitsu. Just prove that you are as good as you think you are. Don't knock it unless you try it.
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Old November 19, 2001, 10:42 PM   #31
LawDog
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That, gentlemen, will be quite enough.

Here on The Firing Line we do not stoop to personal attacks -- ever.

We debate with facts, and we do so courteously, and with civility.

You want to deploy ad hominem debating tactics, then take your debate to PM or e-mail or ICQ or AIM -- in short, anywhere but our public boards.

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Old November 20, 2001, 01:42 AM   #32
Trimation
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Actually boris_01 I have competed before and actually I don't use katas in my martial art I was simply sticking up for them. You kind of contradicted yourself in your last comment. At one point you said you have nothing to prove and in another you said that you like to compete. Well which is it? Just curious.

I think I have had enough of this topic. I am not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you because, frankly, I don't really care. So, that being said, thank you for your time and you have a wonderful life. I hope you find true happiness.

Sincerely and with lots of love,


Jedediah Smith Hignell (trimation)
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Old November 20, 2001, 10:38 PM   #33
Kimbglock
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LawDog,

I do have with you on the overuse of kata. I've seen some school that is basically all they do. I've seen others teach kata, have sparring, but not put the two together. Kata that is taught without (pardon the spelling)Bonkai (application) is just pretty movements.

We practice kata, learn the application, and our instructor lets those with CONTROL have a got at it free style. That does hnot mean we don't get our bumps and bruises, but no one is walking out with broke bones. The occasional black eye, bruised rib, small cut, but considering the intensity between individuals, we control themselves very well.

We are encouraged to apply technique learned during these encounters. We are also encouraged to vary the techinque used.
His statement to me onece " You've got that technique down, is that all you do after 4 years with me? This is as close to actual combat that I can make it for you. Use this time to develop a variety of working technique. If it don't work here, if you make a mistake, it will on cause your a little embarassment among friends." I tried to take is advice to heart, continue expanding the variety of technique learned, and apply the techniques learned through my kata practice and his teaching of Bonkai!

Tim
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Old November 21, 2001, 11:27 AM   #34
Demi Barbito
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Good topic!!! Here is my view...

At The C.S.P.T. we do not veiw Self Preservation as a "boxing problem" or a "grappling problem" or a "shooting problem"... We veiw it as a survival problem! Whatever weapon you may be depending on is only a tool. You are the weapon. Your survival begins and ends with you. The answer for surviving a violent encounter... Learn your best options at all ranges: empty hands, weapons and firearms. Learn the best training methods to develop them and train them under all circumstances and environments. This must be done structurally, methodically and dynamically.
As far as streetfighting goes we are simply looking for the truth of the matter!!! Generally there are no "street fights" per se. There are "assaults". When we are in a situation where we may be assaulted we must rapidly "counter assault" our attacker, not "fight" with him! There are 1000 ways to do anything - one best way, one worst way and 998 ways in between. I don't care about the worst way or the 998 other ways, just the best way. When it comes to "self preservation" I am interested in the best way to take a person out of commission. It's not about fighting!!! A fight is when two people square off and mutually agree to exchange blows. It's really not about becoming an expert level boxer or wrestler or kickboxer. These people train for years so they can "duke it out" with eachother. There are a lot of big, tough, mean people in the world who want to grab you by the ears and bite your nose off. You can't afford to "square off" against this kind of person. You have to know your best options and you must have a delivery systems to execute those options as well as training methods to make them come to life for ÒyouÓ. So our goal is to train for ÒSelf PreservationÓ. We can fight in all the ranges (kicking-punching-clinch-trapping-grappling), and with sticks, knives, firearms and inprovised weapons. We also learn to flow in and out of all these ranges/elements. There are several reasons why people lose fights. They get tired or they get "nailed" in a range they are unfamiliar with i.e. the grappler get's kicked or the boxer get's grappled or they are simply ambushed and they panic. We train for every possible scenario as well as Òbody alarm conditionÓ (emotional/pyscological applications)as to be familiar with all the ranges/dynamics. If we're constantly doing this we should not get tired. We are addressing the realities of an assault and we are not held captive by the limitations of our systems, arts, facility or our ego. So as Bruce Lee taught us, we use "No Way As A Way". We are not trying to be expert level at any one thing. We are just learning our best options at each and using the very best training methods to make it all work. You can't just train one range, say boxing, and think you will always fight in boxing range. Assaults/streetfights/suprise attacks mutate. You start off one on one and then his buddies jump in and one has a broken bottle so you pick up a stick etc... To grow you must constantly put yourself in unfamiliar situations. You have to be able to adapt. There is no way, there is no limitation.
The following is a breakdown of the matrix of self preservation. You will see why we are not trying to be expert level at any one thing. There is just too much. So we are trying to be expert level at the matrix as a whole.

o Firearms - Long, medium and close range. Retention and disarms. Shoot/no shoot.
o OC Spray - Chemical defense sprays
o Improvised Weapons/Projectiles - Throwing coffee mufs, cue balls, knives etc. Dropping a couple of batteries in a sock. Clock radio in a pillowcase.
o Staff - Brooms, curtain rods, branches etc.
o Dos Manos - Two handed weapons. Baseball bat, axe, two by four, lead pipe.
o Flexible Weapons - Chains, nunchucks, hose, rope, an electrical cord with a lock attached to the end etc.
o Stick and Knife - One long and one short. Could be a machete in one hand and a knife in the other or a car antenna and a razor or a plunger and a pen etc.
o Double Stick - Two longs. Could be double machete or machete and stick or car antenna and tree branch etc.
o Single Stick - Could be single machete or a bar b que cleaning brush a rolling pin a small lamp etc.
o Double Knife - Two shorts. Could be knife and jagged piece of tin or an open can of chili with the lid still partially attached and a carpet cutter etc.
o Single Knife - Could be a broken piece of glass with your shirt wrapped around it to hold it or a jagged key etc.
o Pocket Stick - Double or single. Could be a ballpoint pen, keys, screwdriver etc.
o Empty Hands - Kicking range, punching range, clinch range, trapping range and grappleing range. (with and without weapons)
o Killer Instinct - Psycological and emotional control as applied to assault/counter assault. Threat Perception Management.
o Combat Athletics - Attribute Development. Speed, timing, footwork etc.

This is how I see it.

Demi Barbito
The Center For Self Preservation Training
www.DemiBarbito.com
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Old November 21, 2001, 10:54 PM   #35
shy_man
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Greetings again:

A very nice input from knowledgeable martial arts enthusiast with different dicipline. Be it in the negative and affirmative side if supported by facts then it would be fine for every one. As Lawdog said, all we said must be supported by facts.

Mr. Demi Barbito, you almost incorporate all the elements of self defense or I rather called self preservation. I agree that not only of being an expert of one kind of martial arts that saves us from an assault but it is how we apply variety of knowhow we had been trained and sometimes using common sense to every situation that arises. If when to Shoot or not to Shoot, if when to use or not to use boxing, grappling, kicks, punch, chops, etc. A lot of things to be considered as weapons that might be use in a given situation.

Kimbglock, you have again proven once again that Kata, is just like a shadow boxing that we are applying a certain techniques to an imaginary opponent and if ever we are in tournament or in real fight being assault, then those Kata training we had will just come out when we made assault or defend to/from opponent.

Maybe some people may have just mis-interpreted the real meaning of Kata.

Thanks
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