The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old October 5, 2001, 08:38 PM   #1
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Box cutter Scenario

Ok, here goes...

Let's say that you are at a train station. The National Guard folks have been charged with taking over security, but it's only a few days into the program and not everyone is clear on their duties.

You walk by an average looking man of dark hair and features..he is carrying a jacket over his arm and it's 90 degrees with high humidity here in soCal. You accidentally bump his arm and something clatters on the floor.

Looks like a "Box cutter."

You have your CCW, and cell phone...you see a soldier, carrying a side arm, You take a couple steps towards the soldier and wave to get his attention.

The stranger reaches down and snatches up the razor, pushing the blade forward, and moves towards you in a threatening manner.

He is 10 feet away from you....what do you do?
LASur5r is offline  
Old October 5, 2001, 11:45 PM   #2
ahenry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,764
If somebody ever comes at me with something like a box cutter I think I would just have to bitch slap him.
__________________
Doing what you've done, gets you what you've got.
ahenry is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 12:46 AM   #3
Fred Hansen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: The middle of WWIII
Posts: 3,335
I agree with ahenry. I think I wouldn't be able to do anything other than slap him to death. Where I come from you just don't waste bullets on maggots like that.

Quaedam non iura scripta sed omnibus scriptis certiora sunt

Some laws are unwritten, but they are better established than all written ones
__________________
"This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?"

Michael Moore
Fred Hansen is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 01:19 PM   #4
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Increase the distance, aim for center of mass, and order him to drop the weapon. If he complies, turn him over to security. If not, turn him over to the cororner. End of story.
__________________
"As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms."

-- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss
David Scott is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 02:34 PM   #5
STUMP
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2001
Location: southeast
Posts: 9
If he is 10 feet away and armed with an edged weapon, you will not get your handgun out unless you step into him and use some type of strike or control technique to buy you some distance. It has been shown that an average person can cover 21 feet and deliver a lethal wound in 1.5 seconds. How long does it take the average person to draw from an exposed holster? Now add the fact that the handgun is concealed. If you try to back pedal, the attacker can come forward 4 times faster than you can move in reverse. At this distance, step in, stun the attacker, move off the attackers center line, create distance, then pull your handgun and revoke his birth certificate.
__________________
If you are gonna be stupid, you had better be tough.
STUMP is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 04:42 PM   #6
LBC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 6, 2001
Posts: 385
I wholeheartedly second David Scott's response.
LBC is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 05:31 PM   #7
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
At 10 feet, I'm simultaniously moving backwards diagonally and beiginning my draw. My weak hand is up in a defensive position and I'm ordering him to stop and drop the knife. If he charges at that point, I deflect his charge with my weak hand and shoot from the retention position. If he hesitates, I complete my draw, aim center of mass and again order him to drop the knife and raise his hands. As David Scott said, at that point he either complies and gets turned over to the authorities of he is shot as many times as necessary until ghe stops advancing with the knife.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 07:22 PM   #8
Navy joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2001
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 1,803
Bad thinking here. Run! If you pull your weapon and shoot, you will both die in a hail of M-9 bullets before your friendly guardsmen figure the whole thing out.
__________________
FY47012
Navy joe is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 08:15 PM   #9
WR Olsen
Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 23
Box Cutter

Navy joe has it right. The best ting to do is RUN. He is too close, can move faster than you and is focused. You will be trying to decide what to do (the surprise factor) and how to get your weapon out while he is filletng you.

Let the Guard and/or security handle the problem. After all you want to go home to your family, don't you?
WR Olsen is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 10:29 PM   #10
LawDog
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: September 15, 1999
Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 4,194
Bring my walking stick/cane up in a beat against the hand holding the box cutter and continue the engagement with a firm thrust into the base of the critters throat.

Step on the box cutter and/or hand of the critter as he gasps for air and signal the soldier.

LawDog
__________________
"The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer."
--The 13th Warrior

Bona na Croin

The LawDog Files
LawDog is offline  
Old October 6, 2001, 11:43 PM   #11
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I agree with Navy Joe. The armed soldier will see you shooting someone and just try to neautralize everyone, no matter what the circumstance or cost.
 
Old October 6, 2001, 11:57 PM   #12
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
10 feet is too close to run.....

At ten feet the attacker is too close for you to run from, some kind of defensive response will be required even if it only slows his attack long enough for you to turn and run.

The Guardsman on duty on the platform is most likely carrying his sidearm in condition 3; if he even has a magazine in it all. Any response you make, either shooting your assailant or a physical altercation will be long overwith before he can remove his M9 from the flapped M12 holster, charge his weapon (from whatever state of readiness he has it in) and either assist you or shoot you both in a wild series of gunshots.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old October 7, 2001, 01:40 AM   #13
LASur5r+P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2001
Location: soCal,Republic of
Posts: 111
Good

Good responses all around.

Might suggest some of you veirfy something first. Have someone stand about 10 feet in front of you. Make sure you have thoroughly emptied your weapon. Check again, then use your CCW holster and dress as you normally do when you carry. Have person hold hand out in front of them as if with a bladed weapon...or if you wish with a washable marker. Go at full speed. They "mark" you and you draw. Think it's just a good idea to see if you're drawing fast enough.

For those of you that running is a first response, please try that.

I think it is just a good idea to make sure all is as you say, then you have truly "mastered" your technique.

I don't think there is a right or wrong technique...it is your life so your response is as you believe and train in.

My training has me responding by moving in and to the side of the BG (doing a yin to his yang move), then keep on moving past him and keep on running. Then when I have enough distance I either draw or keep on running.

Thanks for your insight....especially about the soldier... unfortunately for them, they are in condition three.? or four?..weapon empty, magazine outside of weapon.

I agree, military training is different from LEO training. So I wouldn't want to be nearby or mistaken for a BG and get caught in a hail of bullets.
__________________
proud to be an American.
LASur5r+P is offline  
Old October 7, 2001, 11:58 AM   #14
Jeff White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 29, 1998
Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA
Posts: 1,397
Train with a charging target....

I made a charging target for my dept. to train live fire with. I started with an old lawn mower deck (the adjustable wheels work great on varying terrain). I drilled a hole in the front and mounted an eyebolt. Then I built legs from 1 1/2" PVC and mounted them to the deck. I covered these with an old pair of jeans. I built a frame of PVC upwards on the sides to attach a "Tactical Ted" torso to. Attached PVC arms to the framework, rigging one so that it would swivel. Duct taped an old knife to the hand of the swiveling arm and mounted another eyebolt to the back of the arm. Put an old shirt on over "Ted" and ran a piece of 550 cord from the eyebolt on the arm to the rope tied to the eyebolt on the mower deck.

To set it up, place "Ted" on a place on your range where you can safely shoot at somewhat of an angle. Take the rope you pull "Ted" with and run it straight back. Put a stake in the ground and attach a snap link to it. Use this to change direction of the rope.

We started with the officer 21 feet away from "Ted" and gave him a scenario where he had to verbally engage "Ted". Another officer spoke as "Ted". When the situation got to the point where it was time for "Ted" to attack, another assistant took off running with the rope, as the rope pulled tight, it pulled in the 550 cord, which raised "Ted's" arm with the knife. The officer then had to react to the attack, drawing and firing on the move. Use plenty of rope to pull "Ted" with so that you can keep everyone out of the potential line of fire. You may want to designate a "maneuver area" for saftey, depends on the set up of your range.

Some variations we have used are to give the officer a briefcase and kit bag to carry in his hands, to simulate a scenario on the PD parking lot where he is going to or coming from his squad at the begining or end of the shift. I think that this would be easily adaptable to training for the situation we've discussed in this thread or other similar situations the CCW holder may face.

Jeff
Jeff White is offline  
Old October 7, 2001, 05:58 PM   #15
Mike in VA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 1998
Location: Santa FE, NM
Posts: 2,163
Please forgive my nievete, but the box cutters I've seen expose 1/4" - 1/2" of blade, OK for a nasty slash, pretty hard to stab deeply with, but not exactly lethal unless the BG is really good or really lucky.

At 10', you're not likely to get your weapon into play, best bet IMHO, is go from the shoulders, block with your off arm and try to deck him or kick the shinola out of him (i.e. make him sing alto). Smack his @$$ down if you can, make lotsa noise, enlist the aid of others if you can. I suspect there are now a lot of citizens out there who might help you.

Plan B, if you can knock him down and get some distance and get the Guardsman's attention, identify yourself and hope for the best. all the better. I agree that if you start shooting, you're pretty likely to be a casualty (God will know his own?). No dis on the NG, but how well trainied do you think they are, really (as of, like, today?)
__________________
M2
The Second Amendment IS homeland defense!
Mike in VA is offline  
Old October 8, 2001, 09:37 AM   #16
Gunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2000
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 279
Think of the people around you (witnesses):

Drop bags, raise open hands, sidestep, "DROP THAT WEAPON!", retreat (don't cross the guards possible line of fire); defend with blows/kicks/whatever "NO! NO! NO!" (don't do any karate-style shouts - substitute NO in training); assess, scan, move to cover "POLICE! CALL THE POLICE!".

By verbalizing you have given witnesses and armed GGs the chance to decide which of you is the BG. Verbalizing can be one of the triggers for you to change to condition Orange or C Red, while giving the impression that you are being victimized, thus saving you from shots by the other GGs.

It should help avoid court or jail time with statements like "This nice gentleman accidentally bumped into that terrorist who tried to kill him although this nice guy was retreating and asked that terrorist to stop."
Gunter is offline  
Old October 8, 2001, 11:07 AM   #17
Bogie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2000
Location: Job hunting on the road...
Posts: 3,827
I'd yell "Soldier - He's got a knife!" and if the SOB came after me, I'd attempt to insert it in his fourth point of contact. If he cuts me, in a scuffle, it ain't likely to be fatal, but I'll likely have an advantage in that I'm 6'2", weigh 272 (yay!), and look and sound like an American...
__________________
Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist.

And making the world's greatest bottle openers!
Bogie is offline  
Old October 8, 2001, 11:37 AM   #18
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
Even though it's against regulations, you can manually insert a single round into the M-16, and carry it loaded. It looks empty to your sargent, but at least you have one shot. If you're a good shot, and the situation permits, then one bullet is all it takes.

Which means that the "unloaded" weapon you see may still be live. Not likely, but possible.

If you've got anything you can throw at the assailants face to distract, or use as a shield (luggage) than use that to buy time for the soldiers to respond to your verbalized warning.

If you draw down in a train station, and aren't in some kind of uniform, guess what you are? A TERRORIST! BANG, BANG, BANG! And now you're the one who's dead.

Now, if it was a grenade, and not a boxcutter that fell, than that'd be different. That's an immediate draw and double tap to his head. Then drop the gun and fall on your face so the soldiers don't have a reason to blow you away.

In an ideal world, you could capture him alive so they can interrogate him for information, but realistically, given the chance, the ragheads will kill themselves while taking as many of us with them as they can. So, cap and drop.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old October 9, 2001, 04:38 PM   #19
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
Run away, going past the soldier screaming in fear, "Look out, he's got a boxcutter."
10 feet isn't enough separation if he starts first, but if you start moving first, it should be plenty.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old October 9, 2001, 04:55 PM   #20
M1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2000
Posts: 4,055
LASur5r+P:

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but I'd say never, never, never do such training with a real gun if you are placing the "perp" in front of the officer. The only way I would do such training would be:

1) With simunitions, full protective gear, and everyone on the range searched for all weapons (including knives, kubotans, etc).

2) With a non-firing aluminum or plastic dummy training gun.

3) Shooter faces down range at a target. "Perp" lines up next to the shooter, but facing up range. When the range officer blows the whistle, the shooter draws and fires at the target. The "perp" takes off running up range (away from the shooter and the target). When the shooter fires the second round, the "perp" stops and you measure how far the "perp" made it while running.

Never point a real gun at another good guy during training, even if it is "unloaded." Lots of police officers have died during training when the "unloaded" gun turned out to be loaded.

M1911
M1911 is offline  
Old October 9, 2001, 07:41 PM   #21
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Mea Culpa

I bow before one who speaks wiser than I am.
Thank you M1911, you are right.

To all the other TFL'ers...Mea Culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Please follow the words of M1911...I misspoke and I apologize for it.
LASur5r is offline  
Old October 10, 2001, 07:48 PM   #22
Rob Orlando
Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2000
Posts: 33
Well I'm already "on my toes" because of the bump, and noticing the box cutter type weapon. I don't think I would have taken the couple steps towards the guard to begin with. I think my focus would be the collision....and how did you get 10 feet from him so quickly? Heading to the guard? I think if he wanted to do you harm he would be on you immediately. Then just hope you can beat him down, before he does you!

When I see the blade movement in your scenario, is when I think I would act by drawing attention to the situation and make a break depending on the surroundings. Can I put something between us, a row of seats, trashcan? If not I'll defend myself in the best way that suits the "moment". There is no time for indecision
.
Rob Orlando is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12146 seconds with 9 queries