The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 10, 2001, 03:43 PM   #1
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
Mag-Lite

Is anyone aware of a book or similar source of information regarding defensive(primarily) and offensive techniques using a mag-lite? I use a 3-"C" cell light working as a doorman and have worked it into a couple of Thai routines. My problem is that I think using the mag-lite in this fashion (with my routines) will be too harmful to use on someone. My goal is optimal protection with minimal liability. I know there are techniques out there which are specific to mag-lites and resemble aikido or judo, but there are no classes locally that give instruction in that area. If any one can suggest some written material or even provide me with leads to some material, I would appreciate it. Thanks.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old September 10, 2001, 04:09 PM   #2
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I wouldn't worry about it being too harmful. It should impact like a thick ASP.
 
Old September 10, 2001, 04:13 PM   #3
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
Seriously, I think the light will do some major damage. Also, in my routine, the light ended up being more of a striking weapon than a defensive tool. Again, thanks for the replies.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old September 10, 2001, 04:29 PM   #4
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,588
If "stabbed" into a solar plexus, it's a good extension of your reach. However, if used as a club, and too a head, there is the probability of a blunt-instrument cut.

So, in today's world of tort liability, I would wrap a couple of layers of cloth around the body of the light, taping into place. It would still provide an effective thump, but be less likely to cut.

"See? I was trying to avoid harming anybody!"

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old September 10, 2001, 04:45 PM   #5
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
I won't be "clubbing" anyone. Still, is there any reading material anyone knows about that might give me some insight on this. In my law enforcement classes we have briefly reviewed the use of a baton. I think this is similar to what I'm looking for, but specific to mag-lites. I'll ask my teachers this week, but I was hoping someone here would have that info. available. Thanks, again.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old September 10, 2001, 07:15 PM   #6
LawDog
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: September 15, 1999
Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 4,194
There's a book out called Official Kubaton Techniques, co-written by Tak Kubota. You should be able to order it here:
http://www.spyhq.com/personal/keychain.htm

Tak Kubota also wrote a book called Action Kubaton, but I've never been able to find it.

Kubaton techniques can translate pretty well for use with a flashlight, especially if you have one of the 'C' cell lights.

LawDog
__________________
"The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer."
--The 13th Warrior

Bona na Croin

The LawDog Files
LawDog is offline  
Old September 11, 2001, 04:04 AM   #7
Gunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 5, 2000
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 279
A 3C Maglite qualifies as a short to medium "stick" (ends useful for jabs; edges for pressure application; tube may be used to strike), and as such can be used as nonlethal or as lethal force. Nonlethal use is restricted to the large muscles of the limbs (hitting joints has a high risk of permanent damage, with associated civil liability). Blows and jabs against the head or torso must be regarded as lethal force (and thus generally only permissible when someone is trying to kill you, right now).
Gunter is offline  
Old September 11, 2001, 02:23 PM   #8
Charlie Fox
Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2001
Location: North Charleston SC
Posts: 64
I have used a 3 C cell Maglite for a number of years. I find it to be very portable as well as quick in a defense situation. I think its use should be confined to defensive moves - blocks and locks - as opposed to strikes. Striking a subject should be a last resort but should be as with any other baton; aimed at long bones and joints. As for criminal liability, the type of weapon doesn't matter as long as you can articulate that you were defending yourself. It is only a flashlight after all
__________________
"Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
Charlie Fox is offline  
Old September 12, 2001, 04:49 PM   #9
Jffal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 1999
Posts: 364
A book of interest

Armor of New Hampshire: Browsing Defensive Tactics With Flashlights
http://www.shooterstore.com/acb/show...=1027&CATID=60

Contains information on liability and diagramed instructions on the defensive and offensive use of flashlights.

Jeff
Jffal is offline  
Old September 13, 2001, 12:24 PM   #10
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
Thanks...

everyone for their informarion.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old September 16, 2001, 01:07 AM   #11
parabellum9x19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2001
Posts: 113
What is the best flashlight that can be used as a baton?

I am already aware of the flashlight attachment for ASP batons.
parabellum9x19 is offline  
Old September 16, 2001, 02:07 AM   #12
parabellum9x19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2001
Posts: 113
Does a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite work well as a baton? Are there better 5 or 6 C cell flashlights that can be used as a baton?
parabellum9x19 is offline  
Old September 16, 2001, 03:16 AM   #13
TEXAS LAWMAN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 27, 1999
Posts: 304
Adrenaline Junky,

John Peters wrote a small hardback book, "Defensive Use of Flashlights" (I bought my copy from Massad Ayoob's Police Bookshelf in New Hampshire in the mid-80s---I think). I can't access the book right now but believe the title is correct.
TEXAS LAWMAN is offline  
Old September 16, 2001, 09:47 AM   #14
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Retired LEO friends advise me that when investigating noises in the night, my 4-C cell MagLite should be carried in my left hand, over my left shoulder, gripped so that I can operate the switch and aim it, or swing it forward for use as a club. That sucker is heavy enough to induce subdural hematoma, and tough enough so you won't hurt the flashlight.
__________________
"As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms."

-- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss
David Scott is offline  
Old September 17, 2001, 11:33 PM   #15
parabellum9x19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2001
Posts: 113
Anyone have a 5 or 6 C cell Maglite?
parabellum9x19 is offline  
Old September 17, 2001, 11:58 PM   #16
Seeker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: Lacomb, Oregon
Posts: 1,393
Does nobody use the "D" cell maglites?

Seems like the heavier D cells would make a better improvised weapon, are they too heavy?
__________________
Molon Labe
Seeker

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson
Don't Tread On Me!
"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
-Thich Nhat Hanh
Seeker is offline  
Old September 18, 2001, 12:31 PM   #17
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
I'm going to buy a 6 C cell flash light to keep by my bed. I have found that, even the 3 C cell light, can easily double as a powerful striking weapon. With respect to the D cell being too heavy, honestly, I'm not sure. From what I recall, the 2 D cell and the 3 C cell were approx. the same length and weight. Obviously the widths are different, that's why I chose the C cell. But I believe it all depends on what your primary purpose for the light is. The guy at the Army Surplus told me that D cells last much longer than C cells. I'm not sure if that's true or not. But I use the light while bouncing, and chose the C cell because it felt more like a baton. Both are extremely solid and equally as intimidating. I used to carry one of those mini-mag lites and, I must say, I have notice a significant difference in the time and type of response I receive.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old September 22, 2001, 08:29 AM   #18
Jffal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 1999
Posts: 364
I have average sized hands and am most comfortable with 5 and 6 C Mags as well as the 3 D. I also have a 4 D which I leave in the car. A bit too cumbersome for me for any other purpose than illumination but it serves that function very well. That 4 D could probably be used to knock the auto windshield out if I was able to do so after an accident.

With fresh batteries and xenon lamps (considerably more powerful than the standard Krypton bulps the Mags are sold with) you have an efficient multipurpose tool.

Cold Steel once produced a 20 or so inch aluminum flashlight that fed off 7 AA batteries in a row. Referred to as the Brute, it offered a non-adjustable wide angle beam, on off button on the tailcap, very thick barrel. It weighed over 20 ounces but because of some critical design flaws (weak springs in the tailcap and under the shock absorber bulb housing itself), turned out to be more tempermental than Cold Steel intended. The remaining stock was sold to either US Calvary or Brigade Quartermasters, renamed The Enforcer, and eventually sold out. Flawed or not, I rather like this item.

I'd like to see the design revived and improved. It would make a suitable substitute to C and D cell torches with specs that more closely resemble metal batons.
Jeff
Jffal is offline  
Old September 23, 2001, 04:13 AM   #19
parabellum9x19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2001
Posts: 113
The old original 5D and 6D were made of a heavier aluminum. I have seen a pic of the cold steel brute. I wish it was still in production.
parabellum9x19 is offline  
Old September 25, 2001, 11:20 AM   #20
Battlespace
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2001
Location: Bluegrass
Posts: 4
Several (no - many) years while in Germany I was talking with a military police sergeant who had spent many years handling drunk soldiers. He recommended a four cell flashlight with the handle srapped with good old fashioned black friction tape. He told me all you have to do is jam the light handle up into the crotch and then twist it sharply about 1/4 turn. The friction tape provides a good media to grip clothes, skin and whatever with. He said he never had any problems with getting whoever it was to do exactly like he was told. Granted, this is not a self defense purpose, but does show a good use for flashlights.
Battlespace is offline  
Old September 27, 2001, 07:19 PM   #21
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,973
I have owned and carried a rechargable MagLight for years. It is the size of a 5 D cell light. I think this is what was called the "Rodney King Special" some years back. It is heavy, and would make a darn good defensive weapon if called upon.

Oh, and it has some 30K candle power brightness too. Wow.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old September 27, 2001, 11:07 PM   #22
JB-man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 117
When your life is threatened, I don't think you're gonna debate whatever you do to defend yourself is lawful or not.
Some of those so-called laws are garbage, and not worth dying for. I don't think the jury's gonna nail you for defending yourself with a flashlight.
But, hey, I could be wrong??? I have a mag-light, but it's only 4 inches long.
JB-man is offline  
Old September 30, 2001, 01:04 AM   #23
swatman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2000
Location: Pa. USA
Posts: 768
May wanna check out Ayoob's book THE TRUTH ABOUT SELF DEFENSE.
He has an entire chapter dealing with use of flashlights as SD weapons.
__________________
"what gives a government that arms the whole world the right to disarm it's own citizens?"

www.humanityonhold.com/intifada.html
swatman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11870 seconds with 9 queries