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Old August 25, 2001, 06:24 AM   #1
ragingbull454
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Are they really legal?

Hi,

I've always had a desire, since I was a little kid, to someday acquire a machine gun, particuarly an AK-47, M60, MP5, TEC9, MAC10, and ever since I saw that Glock full auto, I want that too...(how about that flamethrower while we're at it, too?!!) They look like a lot of fun, but in the U.S., are they actually legal to possess- in full auto or just semi-auto, and where can we shoot these badboys?

If it is legal for us to own full-auto, how can I find what state allows them, and where I can use them in those states? If they are allowed, what legal stuff do I have to go through to get them? Is cost a big part?

I'm graduating from college at Western IL. U., in 1.5 years, I'm from Chicago, and the geographic location where I get a job, depends on the type of guns I am allowed to have. I like hunting and shooting, and where ever I can live that has the best hunting, and loose gun restrictions, is the place I will call home, eventually.

If you can help, I'd appreciate it! I thoroughly enjoyed the full auto clips from gulfcoastarmory.com.

Thanks,

Erick
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Old August 25, 2001, 07:21 AM   #2
chetchat
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Erick,

Stop here first :

http://www.subguns.com/laws/iif1.htm

It gives you the best overview of the legalities involved in owning full auto weapons, including what states allow what (SMGs, suppressors, short barrelled shotguns, etc.).

If you have the latitude to live where you want, then there's no reason - funds excluded - that you can't own full auto.

Cost : NFA weapons are typically expensive - especially full auto weapons, because the government has limited the number available to civilians, and those guns have increased in value over the years. Here's good place to get a feel for what costs what : http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/nfaad.cgi

Where to shoot : private property, ranges that permit full auto, wide open spaces where the buffalo roam. Regulations I've seen regarding shooting regular guns also apply to MGs, of course. When you actually get involved in the Class 3 community where you live, you'll find the places you can shoot legally, where MG shoots are held, etc.

Good luck - it's a blast
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Old August 25, 2001, 10:49 PM   #3
JimFromFL
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Since you have this desire since a child, its would be well worth it to pursue. Check any local ranges, you may be surprised as some will actually allow you to rent a full auto.
In order to give an idea of cost, here is your list with an approximate price range:
M60 9-15K
MP5 5-8K
I believe the TEC9 and MAC10 are more afforable and actually under 2K.
These prices are off the top of my head and are not exact. Monitor the subguns board for a month to get a good indication.
The website provided by chetchat is a great place to start.
Cheers!
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Old August 26, 2001, 12:58 PM   #4
jwp
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m11/9 or m10/45 can be found in the 900 to 1400 range and then there is the minimum 200 tax for transfer/shipping/handling etc so cost is 1k to 1.6k for weapon
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Old August 26, 2001, 02:52 PM   #5
ragingbull454
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Does anyone know of any other places to find information on prices of these?

Thanks,

Erick
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Old August 27, 2001, 12:06 AM   #6
Robert the41MagFan
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Erick,

There are roughly 400K to 500K machine-guns in the possession of private citizens in the US. Prices are based on what the market will bear. No set pricing. The best place to start the purchase of a MG is at a class III FFL dealer. That dealer usually has customers calling him stating that their Machine-gun(s) is for sale, dealer has a gun on consignment or the dealer may even have a gun or two of his own for sale. It is a very small community and places like Subguns.com is the place where they gather. Other than at a gun show or word of mouth, there is no other place to find these types of firearms for sale.

Robert
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Old August 27, 2001, 06:39 PM   #7
MeekAndMild
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There is a basic FAQ is on this public site and they have a link to more information.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/nfab/index.htm


There is a FAQ at this commercial site (sorry, it is a frames site so you have to select the How to Own file). On their FAQ page they also have a link to a compilation of which states allow autos:
http://www.vectorarms.com/indexframe.html
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Old August 27, 2001, 06:54 PM   #8
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Erick,

I just got back from Idaho and you can have any gun you can afford to buy there. Plus suppressors and get this, brass knuckles and switchblades. Plus 70% of the state is public land, so lots of places to shoot.
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Old August 27, 2001, 07:34 PM   #9
444
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Check out this on-line auction site that has a Class III Section. This will give you some idea what guns are going for in the free market. http://www.gunsamerica.com/ Keep in mind that if you saw something you liked, you would have to find a Class III dealer willing to do the transfrer and pay him whatever he decides to charge you, on top of the price of the gun. Then you have to file your application with BATF and pay them the $200 transfer tax. Please note that the price of Class III weapons has skyrocketed in the last few years. This is the result of the Clinton administration (thank you, anyone who voted democrat) and the assult weapons bill. This legislation stopped the manufacture or importation of new guns. So, since the ones out there are the only ones that will ever be out there, the price went through the roof. I can remember when you could buy a MAC 10 for $350 plus the $200 transfer tax. I remember when a local store had an M-60 sale going on for $1800/each. It is also interesting to note that prior to the National Firearms act of 1934, you could buy machineguns at the local hardware store. You could go up to your local store and buy a 1928 Thompson and there was nothing out of the ordinary about it. You could buy a suppressor so that you would not disturb others or hurt your hearing when you shot. But, I guess that crime in 1934 was so bad they had to protect society from these evil menaces, and we are still paying for it today. The NFA of 1934 is what extablished the $200 transfer tax. Keep in mind that at that time, you could buy a new car for under $1000, so this tax was designed to prevent private ownership of machineguns.
This is just a guess, but I would say that owning Class III weapons in the Chicago area would be pretty much out of the question. That area was lost to the democrats long ago. If you come to the Southwest, in the states that are still free, Class III stuff is pretty common. We have full auto matches at the shooting club I belong to. I was shooting in the desert the other day and there was a guy shooting his MG34 not far from me. We have several indoor ranges in town where you can rent full auto weapons. Basically buying a full auto weapon involves a couple things. You have to file an application with BATF and included a transfer tax of $200 for the weapon. The application has to be signed by the head LEO in the area you live. For me, that would be the county sheriff. Now obviously you have to live somewhere that has no local laws against class III weapons (or any weapons for that matter) and the sheriff (or whomever) has to be willing to sign the application stating that there are no local laws prohibiting you from owning this weapon. The turn around on this application may take six months during which time you cannot have the weapon. Instead of reading a bunch of speculation and heresay, go to the link already listed and read all this right from the BATF web site. This is not a "license" to buy a Class III weapon, this is just a transfer tax and a background check. You have to go through this proceedure for each gun you buy and if you want to sell one, the new buyer will have to go through this before you can sell. This transfer tax is what caused the BATF/FBI to murder the entire family including the dog of Randy Weaver. The news media made a big deal out of him selling a sawed off shotgun. Sawed off shotguns are perfectly legal in this country as long as you jump through the BATF hoops and pay the transfer tax.
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How the British Regulars fired and fled,
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Old August 27, 2001, 07:54 PM   #10
chetchat
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Quote:
Please note that the price of Class III weapons has skyrocketed in the last few years. This is the result of the Clinton administration (thank you, anyone who voted democrat) and the assult weapons bill. This legislation stopped the manufacture or importation of new guns.
As much as I dislike Clinton and Co., they had next to nothing to do regarding restricting Class 3 weapons and causing the prices to skyrocket. The Firearms Owner's Protection Act of 1986 made any machine guns registered after 05/19/86 illegal to be transferred to regular civilians.

And prior to that, the Gun Control Act of 1968 said that any NFA weapon imported into the US cannot be transferred to an individual.

Clinton's no friend of the gunowner, but the damage to the machinegun community had been done long before he took office.
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Old August 27, 2001, 08:06 PM   #11
444
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".......... The Firearms Owner's Protection Act of 1986 made any machine guns registered after 05/19/86 illegal to be transferred to regular civilians. "

This is what I said. The market works on supply and demand. The supply was cut off, demand stays the same, prices skyrocket. If you had an M16 prior to 1986 you couldn't ask more for it than someone could buy one for new. Now you can't buy one new so you can ask whatever the market will bare. One more item about that statment; ".....machine guns registered after 05/19/86......" You can't register a machine gun for private sale after the 1986 act. This is no longer allowed.

You are correct that the GCA of 1968 prohibited the importation of Class III weapons for individuals, however you could still buy UZIs or HKs or whatever that were converted from semi-auto by a Class III manufacturer until the 1986 act made this practice illegal. By the same token prior to 1986 you could buy new US manufactuered guns such as the M-16 which you can't now. So to say he did next to nothing to the machine gun community is a statement I don't agree with.
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You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

Last edited by 444; August 27, 2001 at 08:27 PM.
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Old August 27, 2001, 10:49 PM   #12
RenegadeX
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Quote:
You are correct that the GCA of 1968 prohibited the importation of Class III weapons for individuals, however you could still buy UZIs or HKs or whatever that were converted from semi-auto by a Class III manufacturer until the 1986 act made this practice illegal. By the same token prior to 1986 you could buy new US manufactuered guns such as the M-16 which you can't now. So to say he did next to nothing to the machine gun community is a statement I don't agree with.
Clinton was President from 1993 - 2001. How do events that happened in 1968 or 1986 have anything to do with him? I have to agree with chetchat, Clinton had nothing to do with the supply of C3.
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Old August 27, 2001, 11:03 PM   #13
444
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You are getting me confused now, or maybe I am talking out my ***. I was referring to the assult weapons ban that occured in 1994 I believe.

Federal law generally prohibits the importation of NFA weapons, nonsporting [In the case of rifles and shotguns, "nonsporting" firearms are firearms other than NFA weapons ( e.g. , machineguns) and semiautomatic assault weapons. Administrative criteria are used to determine whether handguns are sporting. The criteria take into account factors such as size, weight, and the presence of safety features.] firearms and ammunition, and surplus military firearms or ammunition. 18 U.S.C. õõ 922(l), 925(d)(3); 26 U.S.C. õ 5844.
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Old August 27, 2001, 11:30 PM   #14
chetchat
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???????

The Crime Bill (Assault Weapons Ban) was in 1994, when Clinton was President - but that affected semi-automatic weapons only, not Class 3/NFA weapons.

The FOPA in '86 came in under Reagan's watch. The GCA in '68 was under Johnson.
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Old August 30, 2001, 02:57 PM   #15
ABarde
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Lets make it simple.

Move to either Reno Nevada or anywhere in Idaho.
Buy a pre 1986 class III weapon and pay the BATF tax and you can shoot it most anywhere in these states.

God Bless you!
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Old August 31, 2001, 10:19 AM   #16
ragingbull454
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me again.

Does anyone know where I can find an updated list of what states allow machine guns? I know vectorarms.com has a list, but I can't see when it was last updated. The last thing I want to have happen is to find a job in a state where they say they allow machine guns, move there, and then be disapointed because some new law took effect last year. Know what I mean?

I have my eye on Colorado because I went there this summer, and it is just absolutely gorgeous there. Mountains were breathtaking, and you can actually go away for the weekend, and actually "be away" from everything. Perfect place to relax and bust out a machine gun or 3.

Thanks for your help.

Erick
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Old August 31, 2001, 10:26 AM   #17
ragingbull454
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me again.

Does anyone know where I can find an updated list of what states allow machine guns? I know vectorarms.com has a list, but I can't see when it was last updated. The last thing I want to have happen is to find a job in a state where they say they allow machine guns, move there, and then be disapointed because some new law took effect last year. Know what I mean?

I have my eye on Colorado because I went there this summer, and it is just absolutely gorgeous there. Mountains were breathtaking, and you can actually go away for the weekend, and actually "be away" from everything. Perfect place to relax and bust out a machine gun or 3.

Thanks for your help.

Erick
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Old August 31, 2001, 11:10 AM   #18
Edward429451
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Yea Colorado does allow FA's, I see em' at the range not too infrequently. Once you're approved and pay the 200 tax fee thing, its just like any other gun, take and shoot it anywhere you please thats acceptable to shoot any other arm.

I think a better question would be; what are FA's good for? In a practical senario, not just showing off or having fun, or collectability. Am I missing something or is there a real tacticle niche for them?

I priced a FA MP5 at around 4000. here locally. For a 9mm
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Old August 31, 2001, 11:21 AM   #19
ragingbull454
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You're right, there is no actual need to have a FA, but they are fun to use, and fun to collect.

Erick
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Old August 31, 2001, 11:54 AM   #20
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Edward429451,

Going price on an MP5 is just under $8,000. Looks like you found a great deal!
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Old August 31, 2001, 12:17 PM   #21
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The "It's a Crime, Bill" also affected full autos by restricting magazine capacities and new feed belts. Given that most NFAs items are boring with only 10 rounds, the mags that fed them went up in cost. That helped drive the cost of the weapons themselves up. So, yes. Clinton helped screw us with these as well.
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Old September 1, 2001, 09:21 AM   #22
Edward429451
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I think 4000 is too much for an MP5. Specialty Sports in Colorado Springs quoted me 2500 for a semi auto version and 4000 for the FA. The only reason I even priced it cause I recognized it on the shelf, and got curious. He didnt act like he was pulling my leg.
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