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Old July 17, 2001, 08:21 AM   #26
David Scott
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WIth the multiple lines of resistance I described, I really expect that the enemy would never get across the bridge, and that after being ambushed on the far side they might just be smart enough to not try crossing it. The extra preparations for fallback provide for the worst case scenario, and they make sure all of your volunteers have something to do. It's better than just having them sit around and work themselves into a defeatist mood speculating.

The point of the exercise is to delay the Moronians without getting a bunch of civilian volunteers slaughtered. Since the Moronians are afoot, they have quite some time to march just to reach the bridge. All well and good; they'll be dog-tired when they get there. You probably could commit forces on the far side of the bridge and inflict huge casualties, maybe even win total victory, but you'll suffer greater losses yourself. If you hang them up at the bridge for a while, that mixed division will surely cream them on arrival.

If the Moronians find they can't cross the river and back off, then they will have a ways to go in that farmland before they get to anything else that looks like an objective (remember, they marched 12 hours through countryside). The Air Cav units will catch 'em. A few passes from helicopter gunships will do the trick.

Oh, one point I forgot about fortifying the town for the worst-case street fighting. You should position people in upstairs windows and on rooftops, with stacks of Molotov cocktails. A good tip is that if you mix the gasoline with Styrofoam till it's thick as jam, it will stick to whatever it hits. It's the poor man's Napalm.

Behind the idea of this thread is my desire to point out that every one of us who owns a firearm is a potential defender of our country and its freedoms. We are the "well-regulated militia", not the government-run National Guard, because part of the militia's job is to defend the poeple from their own government if it becomes too oppressive. Change the Moronians into the Federal Department Of Confiscating Guns, Burning Books, and Violating Rights, and where are you? On the barricades.
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Old July 17, 2001, 12:34 PM   #27
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Yah except the Gov. has air support, Nuclear wepons ( tactical and Nuetron), will always have a large segment of the population supporting them, know your terrian almost as well as you ( satalites) and many other goodies you probly haven't heard of like RF transmitters to make you sick, "Agent green" (LSD) and other chemical goodies to make you crazy/sick/dead, C-4's that shoot lasers from the nose to blind you ( Really! I kid you not). Biiological warfare etc....


You and all your "freedom fighters" would be dead ducks.
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Old July 17, 2001, 01:55 PM   #28
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As El Supremo Grand Jefe Warlord I would send out all of the Million Moms, HCIers, Liberals, Democrats, Gorons, and David Boies with rolled up newspapers and garden rakes to hold them off as long as possible to buy the rest of us time.
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Old July 17, 2001, 04:28 PM   #29
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Corriea I'd do you one better. I'd send them over with garden rakes and newspapers and THEN I'd blow the bridge.

Only question is.. while they are still on it or after they cross? :P

Hey no one mentioned getting your hospitals alerted for triage and calling up the FD and ambulance services. You are gonna need them.

And for god's sake someone call the media to get this all on tape.

First question asked at meeting "Anyone know how to blow up a bridge?"
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Old July 18, 2001, 05:38 AM   #30
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BigG, you're a hard man, but I have to agree with you on this one.
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Old July 18, 2001, 09:57 PM   #31
Edmund Rowe
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An amateur attempt at organizing

2500 doesn't sound like a battallion, that sounds like a Brigade. First thing I'd ask is how the intel was collected. For all I know that Brigade is the lead element of a whole division (8000-12000 for typical commie infantry TO&E). If the info was from some amateur, the enemy formation may be way bigger or smaller than what was reported. So it might be just a recon in force or something, but we can't count on that. Expect everyone will assume it's an all-out invasion.

More on enemy infantry formations: A unit that large WILL have support weapons. From RPK squad automatics to PK and DShK belt fed machine guns. Also 81mm mortars at the very least. Maybe 120mm mortars and towed artillery. Also, I would expect at least some of the unit to be motorized. Therefore, expect enemy recon elements on motorcycles or wheeled BRDM type vehicles. They may also have a forward detachment in some APCs to dash ahead and sieze key terrain features, in this case the bridge. Even if the unit started as completely foot-born, they might have confiscated a bunch of vehicles from civilians.

Additionally: If the unit's original beachhead had enough support, they might have fighter-bomber or helo gunships on call. What's travelling with the column may not be all they have available. They might not have much, but it only takes 1 or 2 passes from some gunships to ruin your whole day. They may be dropping cluster bombs, or even poison gas. Fun, huh?

Another problem might be refugees. Now how do we tell the difference between a stream of refugees and the enemy column in confiscated cars/trucks???

Now for friendly units:

First thing I'd to is announce everyone with firearms training or
competition experience to head to table A and tell me what you've had.
Next I'd send groups to collect guns and ammunition from gun stores. A problem I'd see is I haven't seen stores that carry enough to supply 800+ people with enough rifle ammo to sustain a long fight.

Why a long fight? I know the US Army said they will be here in 24 hours. However, feces happen in war. General Sad Sack may decide to send the division elsewhere, or the reinforcements are only a mechanized company (about 200 men) instead of a whole division (upwards of 20,000 in a US heavy division). "Relief in 24 hours" may stretch into 36, or 48, or 72, or never. The thing that sounds fishy is sending one US heavy division to tackle an enemy brigade. Either it's a lot more than a brigade that's coming my way or a lot less than a US division as reinforcements.

OK, unit breakdown:
Assemble groups of fit and aggressive groups of 20 in 4WD vehicles to dash ahead and harass the enemy and keep us informed of their advance. Get some HAM radio operators in each group. Get a good military vet or 2 in charge of each group.

Assemble groups of 50 of the lesser fit/lesser trained as more static defense types for holding the town and bridge.

Get a small group to count how many headed over the river and if/when all are back on the friendly side.

Find out if there are any belt-fed heavy weapons in private ownership and get them in some dug-in gun pits covering the bridge approaches. Also, get some weapon pits dug with whatever tripod mounted whatsit inside them that looks like a weapon as a dummy firing position. More on this later.

Get a group of folks to wire the bridge for demolition ASAP. Get some of the groups of 50 to defend against enemy advance attack parties.

Get medical facilities ready for incoming casualties. Also an alternate location outside town. Warn the med people if the enemy arrives, they will probably shoot all the wounded and press-gang the medical people into treating the enemy wounded, so they'd better be ready to clear out fast.

Get the construction company started digging trenches and embankments to hold the bridge area. Also have them pile a roadblock on the far and near sides of the bridge in case the demolition fails.

Get some welding equipment to pre-cut some of the bridge spans to make the demolition easier. Target a demolition time of 4 hours from now.

Keep some mobile groups in 4WD vehicles as a reserve, and some others spread out to warn of enemy approach. ALL directions, not just the far side of the river.

Get some of the private pilots up keeping tabs on the enemy location and keep them in contact with the 4WD harassment groups. Tell them to watch out for SAM-7 and other shoulder launched surface to air missiles.

Send the boats out to either bring back or destroy every boat on the river within 30 miles.

Send some crop dusters to spray the enemy column with pesticide. Tell the pilots to make ONE pass each. I don't think this will really kill any of them. My intention is to make them suit up in gas masks which will really slow them down. A combination of the crop-duster pass and an ambush by one of the 4WD groups should create some good confusion. If they respond
aggressively, we know we are dealing with a first rate unit. If it is a first rate unit, I'm telling all units to pull back to the friendly side and blow the bridge.

Some aggressive units may be best left on the far side with the option of retreating via boat pickup. I'd leave this to the small group commanders' discretion. I'd love to think we have a bunch of great guerrillas in the tradition of Francis Marion but my experience is just finding a good shooter is at least a 1 out of 10 shot, so I might have at most 100 effective people. More likely 20-30.

Warn everyone if the worst comes to worst, the enemy will have assault boats, the bridge won't blow up, and we'll eat a heavy preparatory fire by helo gunships, fighter-bombers, and artillery (REAL arty, I mean like 122mm and 152mm howitzers) before the ground attack comes. Expect at least 50% casualties from the prep barrage. Get some code words pre-planned to retreat to specific rally points beyond the town in case we can't hold them.

That's a good start for Colonel Edmund's Irregulars. I would really expect most of the militia to flee after a hard barrage and ground assault, I hate to say. A clever assault might cause an irreversible panic. For all I know a heliborne assault is a few minutes away.

Edmund
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Old July 18, 2001, 10:05 PM   #32
Edmund Rowe
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About the dummy firing positions

There isn't much this group can do against an air attack by fighter-bombers or gunships except make a bunch of fake fighting positions and hope they use up more of their payloads on them first.

Edmund
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Old July 18, 2001, 10:08 PM   #33
Spectre
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Let me rephrase my first reply...

Blow the bridge.

Burn the town.

Leave Edmund on the far side to delay advance of enemy.

Just kiddin'. So, Edmund, would I get to carry your AR while you used your Remington to harry the invaders, or would you choose one of your M1A's?
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Old July 18, 2001, 10:49 PM   #34
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Going hunting with Spectre

Unfortunately, as "militia Colonel" my best place would not be out popping redcoats, but in a command center directing the action and analyzing incoming reports. Nuts, I'd have to figure out some not-so-obvious place to have my CP. Hope I guess right or an enemy barrage will be my wake up call.

...but in a situation like that, if I wasn't the CO, I'd love to get out there with my Remington and start the bodycount!!

Edmund
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Old July 18, 2001, 11:00 PM   #35
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Hmph. You're making it hard on me, buddy. Then, I'd have to choose between being your bodyguard, and being out taking heads!

Every Your Most Obedient Servant...

(just bought The Patriot today, and watched half; gosh, I love that movie!)
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Old July 18, 2001, 11:35 PM   #36
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I wonder...

what all these "plans", suggestions, etc. (including mine) would look like if (re 2 Amend) folks were trained "in the arms of the times" OR/AND had the local area National Guard armory available to them.

What then would these "scenario" plans be?

(Now, with this insertion, this thread could reach record size/participation.)
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Old July 18, 2001, 11:48 PM   #37
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Edmund,

I hate to disagree about where you should be during the battle, but I must. You and Spectre will get plenty of chances to shoot "Redcoats". You need to lead from the front. This will be especially important since you are dealing with untrained "militia" troops.

Your untrained and barely disciplined units will need stalwart examples such as Spectre and yourself to bolster their morale once the battle starts. They are going to see some very ugly things and even though they will be fighting for their homes, you need to remember that most of our population has never known real life threatening hardship. Good leadership will make up for many of the more sophisticated weapons your forces lack. If the troops think that their Colonel is in a bunker somewhere listening to contact reports on the FRS radios, they will be more likely to bolt when the going gets really tough. On the other hand, the sight of their Colonel on the front, sharing the danger and the hardship, and counting coup on the enemy, it will make it mentally harder for them to run. They say that General Patton never went back from the front in a jeep. He would ride to the front so the soldiers could see him going to the front, but he was always picked up in a light aircraft and flown to the rear so his soldiers never saw him "retreating".

You can study all the tactics, stategy and logistics you want, but when the time comes and the bullets are cracking overhead, and shrapnel from VT fused rounds is raining down, and no sane man would leave cover, you have to be able to stand up and yell FOLLOW ME!!!!!!!

Jeff
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Old July 19, 2001, 12:01 AM   #38
labgrade
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Y'all're making this was too difficult.

Put up a couple "road closed" signs, back it up with another few "road guards," replete in blaze orange safety vests & those STOP/SLOW reversible signs - maybe a "form one lane" sign. Have a few folks just stand around with shovels to make it look realistic.

Worse case, some biddy from the local guvmint office can harry them with inane questions & ask 'em to fill out lots of forms - in triplicate. Besides, where's your invasion permit?

------

A series of 5-gallon gas cans filled with aforementioned styrofoam thickener, coupla sticks of 80% on one side & about an inch worth of assorted nuts/bolts on the other (lay the can on its side, squirt a coupla caulk tubes worth of silicone/liquid nails/whatever & pour on the nuts) - wrap the whole thing in duct tape. Electrical-primed & rig for detonation with radio controlled gear.
1/2 a$$, poor man's claymore. Set 'em in elongated concentric circles along advance route. Blow alernating 1/3 inner circle when troops are in range. After the initial effect & they pop back up again, blow the remaining inner 1/3 circle. Same same for those backing out or moving forward - your next series of 1/3s. Any moving to the woods outside the road area, crank off the next outer circle by 1/2s.

Doubtful dynamite will bring down any modern bridge. Prolly need shaped charge to cut steel beams. You don't have to blow it anyway - only kill anybody on it. Besides, a back hoe could tear out huge sections of roadway making it all but impassable - at least put 'em on foot .... Wouldn't "blow the bridge" until best effect & max troops on it, without letting any come across.

For "cocktails," duct tape railroad flare (fusee) to side of bottle. Built in striker/igniter & would suck if your Bic didn't flick.

In any event, if they want to run away - let 'em. That's for later.

Far as the crop dusters go, think I'd spray 'em w/gasoline & pitch out a few lit RR flares ....
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Old July 19, 2001, 12:28 AM   #39
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Hate to go squirrelly on this, labgrade...

but if we're gonna put up road closed signs as a tactic, then maybe we better put up "No Shooting" signs on the trees and a big bill board on bridge approach stating something like:

"According to legislated state law the town council of XYZville is empowered, and accordingly has acted to, ban all non-resident owned firearms".

This is a gun free zone. Turn in all firearms to the Sheriff station located at the bridge-head.

Who knows? Might work.
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Old July 19, 2001, 05:53 PM   #40
Edmund Rowe
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"Follow me!"

Jeff White, you are correct. The militia would need strong visible leadership from the front.

I'd prefer to say "Do what I do!" but you get the idea.
Spectre, we WILL get plenty of opportunities to pop redcoats.

Nuts, nobody commented on my take on the enemy?

Edmund
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Old July 19, 2001, 06:22 PM   #41
Spectre
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I think we can see you know your ComBloc TOE.

I'll support while you engage at maximum effective range with a PSS.

If we can jury-rig command-detonated napalm devices, I would hit lead enemy elements. I'm okay with burning wholesale plots and fighting over the ashes. I would like to have and keep the iniative, especially since I concur that our fighting force is not likely to hold under sustained fire. With that in mind, I am not overly concerned with ammo supply.

Jeff, some of us are just too dumb to run.
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Old July 19, 2001, 06:28 PM   #42
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Enemy Order of Battle

Edmund,

You estimation of the enemy is pretty right on for an outfit organized and equipped under the old Soviet model. However, David only gave us so much information and it is his thread Perhaps the Moronians (obviously backed by the CHICOMs) came into the country in containers on Cosco freighters.

It is a totally different scenario under your order of battle.

Jeff
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Old July 19, 2001, 07:56 PM   #43
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If Col. Edmund is in charge of the operation.......he should NOT be in front. He needs to be in a position where he and his advisors are able to keep abreast of an ever changing situation, with multiple sub-operations and fronts. The communications alone would restrict his mobility. Yes, good leaders are needed in the hot areas but not THE leader. Mayhap there are NO VETS with grunt leadership capability. Another alternative might be firefighter team leaders who are also hunters. Plant foremen, logging operation foremen. Leaders can be found.

Sam
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Old July 19, 2001, 10:37 PM   #44
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Other leaders WILL be found, they will self-identify themselves. That's why I think this crew should self-organize itself into groups of 20 - 40. Being with their friends, neighbors, hunting-buddies, and the like, in short, with people they know and trust, is about the only team-building your going to be able to pull off in this scenario. The odds are good that this will produce a fair mix of all the aforementioned weapons, so every team will have a modest ability to pull off any mission, also building their confidence.

"Joe, take your team by your favorite tree stand along the old logging road. If the enemy shows up, have every man take deliberate but quick shots, and empty one magazine at the enemy. When they empty their weapon, have them immediately run to the rally point by the old town dump. Then use your cell phone to call me and render a report and receive further instructions. If you can't raise me, your on your own to use your best judgement on what you should do next. But take the advice of 'old sarge' here; he'll keep you 'real' and make sure you don't bite off more than you can chew. After the war is over, meet me at The Ole Brass Rail Saloon; the first round's on me."

Respectfully, if you think you can pull off anything more sophisticated than what I just described with this scenario, I submit this thread has gotten your imagination running wild.
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Old July 19, 2001, 11:39 PM   #45
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Actually I think most of the plans presented are too complex

The "troops" you have to work with are not going to be any better quality and maybe even worse then the colonial militia during the American Revolution. Our population is composed of a lot of well meaning people who have never really faced any physical hardship in their lives. Outside of a few Special Operations types we've seen no real heavy Infantry combat since Vietnam. The last time we ever were in a position where we could lose on the battlefield on a large scale was Korea in the early '50s. Most Korean war vets are in their late 60s or older by now. The Vietnam generation is aging. Add in the incredible tooth to tail ratio of American forces and you'll be lucky to find 10% of your vets who served in ground combat arms (Infantry, Armor, Artillery, Engineers) . Most of the rest will have had exposure to military discipline, but will have almost none of the skills you need to fight with.

Among these you will have those who would try to prosper from the situation (it happens everywhere, it's just human nature), and many who will want to use the situation to further their own agenda. One thing you haven't taken into consideration is those fringe groups who will use the Moronian invasion to seize a little power for themselves. Colonel Edmund may very well have to fight Imperial Grand Dragon Donnie for control of the forces. Imperial Grand Dragon Donnie may have several followers who have stockpiles of military stores that may be usefull to the cause. Some of the sheeple will naturally side with Imperial grand Dragon Donnie because they will feel safer, because with his camo clad followers he may appear the more competent and prepared leader. Grand Dragon Donnie may even want to negotiate a seperate peace with the Moronians if he thinks it will benefit his cause. Others will be reluctant to leave their homes and families to the protection of others. Some will want to head out on their own to engage the enemy. About a third of the people will want to do nothing and stand by and watch as the Moronians march by.

You have less then 12 hours to build a fighting force out of this mix. Simple tactics where all your soldiers can see one another will be the order of the day. You will probably have some small hastily thrown together units that can scout and perform other functions, but you will still need to lead this group from the front. Sam, with all due respect, if you had six months to train, you might be able to pull off complicated operations that Colonel Edmund could direct from his TOC. In 12 hours, you will be lucky to organise much of a defense. The best you can hope for is to hold them long enough for the Army to get there. The only way is to use the natural obstacle you have, the river.

12 hours would barely be enough time for a trained brigade with a lot of engineer support to organize a defense in depth. Blow a span of the bridge, get your forces online on your side of the river and hold. You will have to commit a fairly large force to internal security in the town to keep order and prevent looting. You may have to disarm and lock Grand Dragon Donnie up or even kill him in order to stay in control.

Unfortunately this won't be the romantic story of people coming together to save their homeland. It's going to rip families apart, destroy lifelong friendships, and cause terrible loss of life if you decide to take the fight to the Moronians right away.

Lets look at the history here, in occupied Europe in WWII various resistance units not only fought the Germans, but they fought each other, when there were no Germans around to fight. What makes anyone think things would be any different here?

Jeff
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Old July 21, 2001, 10:44 PM   #46
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I live in L.A., I would just tell the local gangbangers "hey those guys said some nasty stuff about your mama!"

AK's and RPG's huh? Get several of the local deer hunters to snipe the RPGers and send a wedge of the construction bulldozers to run them flat!

If you don't want to get that close, raid the hardware store for wood and supplies and build a couple of large trebuchets fill some 55 gallon drums with gas, slap a stick of dynamite on the end, light it and fling them! BOOM!!
Airburst would be best.
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Old July 21, 2001, 11:55 PM   #47
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Trebuchets n David slings have a lot in common. Pretty simple but if operator doesn't know how to operate with some skill, operator first casulty. Kool idea tho.

Sam
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Old July 21, 2001, 11:55 PM   #48
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The Moronic View

Being a Moron...

Last edited by Cal4D4; July 22, 2001 at 02:20 AM.
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Old July 22, 2001, 12:49 AM   #49
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edited out

Last edited by Cal4D4; July 22, 2001 at 02:22 AM.
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