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Old July 8, 2000, 01:33 AM   #1
CassandraComplex
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I don't know the first thing about powders. Okay, I know the basics (I know that there is such thing as "faster" and "slower" burning powders), but I don't understand why people really pick one brand over the other.

Anyway, I am reloading both .40 cal and 10mm right now. I was hoping for a powder that would be good in both. If that is not reasonable, then I would like suggestions for good powder for each individually.

I have only used Accurate #5 and Winchester Super Target so far. Are either of these a good choice? Why or why not?
What qualities am I looking for? What makes a good or bad powder for these loads?

Thanks!
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Old July 8, 2000, 01:49 AM   #2
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For practise, W231 is a real good basic powder. For full loads, check a couple of loading manuals and see what will give the highest velocities in both rounds, based on the bullet weights you prefer. Try the two or three "most qualified" and see which works best.

I know it isn't a packaged answer, but it will work the best in the long run.

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Old July 9, 2000, 12:30 AM   #3
saands
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Archie's advise seems sound. I'll add a little. I usually look not only for the highest velocities, but for a load that achieves those velocities at lower pressures. I believe that the Lee manual has a chapter on predicting pressures/velocities for reduced loads as well. Max loads are based on the max pressure that is produced during combustion. What I have seen in .357 mag loads for my 6" revolver is that the slower burning powders like Alliant 2400 give superior performance at lower pressures because the slower powder develops pressure during the entire path (and based on the flame that comes out of the barrel it looks like it would be even better in an 8" bbl). With that said, I am using BullsEye in my .40 s&w ... basically because Alliant has current load info available on the net and I can get it locally. Even a 90% charge gives me velocities higher than most factory loads, so I am able to proctice with hotter loads than I Fiocchi HP's that are at the ready.
Hope this helps,
saands
ps ... Try some loads that are not worked up to MAX ... you will probably be surprised that there is something less than MAX that is the most accurate ... I think this has been true for ALL of my experiences.
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Old July 10, 2000, 12:08 AM   #4
Ala Dan
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Greetings, You may also want to try Hodgdon's
Universal Clay's powder. I use this is 9m/m
caliber, and it seems to work quite well.

Regards,
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Old July 10, 2000, 01:13 AM   #5
JackFlash
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The Hodgdon Data Manual and some others provide load data for several brands of powders. Your local library has load data manuals too. There is lots of load data online too. (Beware of "folk" loads and typographical errors on personal reload pages.)

The older manuals (1970's) are typically heavier loads than the current listings. It's hard to decide if the newer powder is "hotter" or if the older loads are just heavier.

Anyway, the Hodgdon manual lists relative burn rates for several brands of powder. Other manuals do this too, and there are online sources for burn rates.

It's important to know that the 40 S&W is a short version of the 10mm. Because of the shorter case, the 40 is sensitive to seating depth. Bullets seated too deeply increase working pressure significantly.

That said, you can begin shopping around for a suitable powder by looking at manuals and seeing what they list for the types of loads (bullet weights, lead/jacketed, velocities, etc.) that you want to load.

That said, the Hodgdon Data Manual #26 (1994) lists these powders for both calibers:

Hodgdon -- HS6, HS7

IMR -- SR7625

Winchester -- 231

Hercules -- Green Dot, Unique

On a list of 54 powders, number 1 being the fastest (Bullseye) and number 54 the slowest (Hodgdon H870), HS6 ranks 18, HS7 ranks 20/21, IMR SR7625 ranks 15, Win. 231 ranks 2/3, Herc. Green Dot is 10, Unique is 13.

Powders are either "single base" or "double base." Single is straight nitro-cellulose. Double is nitro-cellulose and nitroglycerine.

Powder shapes are "extruded," "spherical," and "flake."

Rifle powder is extruded, typically single base, and the grains are rod shape which vary in length and diameter.

Spherical or "ball" powder is ball shaped and can vary from fast pistol powder to slow rifle powder. It's double base. The bulkier, slower ball powder is harder to ignite and often requires magnum primers.

Flake is double base, fast burning, and flake shaped. Used for pistol, shotgun and sub velocity loads in rifles. Slow burning flake for rifles is not generally available in USA, but is found in Europe.

GENERALLY, for lighter loads in a shorter barrel gun you want a faster powder. For heavier loads, heavier bullets, and longer barrels you want a bulkier (slower) powder.

Typically a slower powder provides a faster velocity because the pressure "spike" is flatter and longer. But it takes a heavier bullet and a longer barrel to get this powder to burn cleanly.

A faster powder will burn clean in a shorter barrel with a lighter bullet, but it also has a steeper pressure spike and so limits the maximum working pressure and resultant velocity.

I like Hodgdon HS6 as an all round pistol powder. I use it in 38, 357 mag. 45 ACP and even 44 mag (although H110 is a better match). HS6 is a good powder for the 10mm and 40 S&W.

Accurate Arms list a fair amount of data on their site with a discussion of each of their powders and its application.
www.accuratearms.com

Hodgdon lists data too:
http://www.hogdon.com/

Winchester:
http://www.winchester.com/

Hercules/Alliant:
www.alliant.com

And the Reloading Pages of M.D. Smith (Turn on your speakers!):
http://www.reloadammo.com/reload.htm

This and other forums are a good source of discussion for powder selection. Take a look at Tuco's Forums (the workbench):
http://www.mosin-nagant.net/Interactive-Area.html

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Old July 10, 2000, 01:39 AM   #6
CassandraComplex
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Thanks for the info and links!
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Old July 11, 2000, 06:50 PM   #7
Peter M. Eick
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In my 10mm's and 40's I tend to shoot a lot of AA-7 and Power Pistol lately. If I am trying to crank up some power then I go for AA-9 and Blue Dot.



------------------
P229 Sport and 357 SIG, H&K P7PSP and 9MM, Dual Perfection!!
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Old July 11, 2000, 07:31 PM   #8
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Power Pistol is the most accurate clean-burning easy-metering medium/high-velocity powder for most 10mm/40 loads. Works with most bullet weights, too.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"

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Old July 11, 2000, 09:50 PM   #9
WalterGAII
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Accurate Arms claims that their #7 is the only cannister powder that will duplicate 10mm factory loads. I use #7, exclusively, for .400 Cor-Bon and .40 Super.
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Old July 11, 2000, 10:01 PM   #10
Clark
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http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Fa...1/myloads.html

This html is nuke loads for the 10mm.
He uses IMR800.
I got some and tried it.
It had some unburnt powder flakes come out of the barrel that could be a fire hazzard.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited July 12, 2000).]
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Old January 24, 2001, 12:29 AM   #11
jtduncan
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Any good 10mm recipes using various 155 -180 grain bullets out there?

Power Pistol, W231, TiteGroup?

What loads are most of you shooting out of your 10mm?
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Old January 24, 2001, 11:22 PM   #12
danm
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Cassandra: I can offer you no experience or wisdom
on the 10mm. But for the 40 - I have tried most every
powder that is suitable, and I keep coming back to
AA#5. This is my experience, gained from loading over
17,000 rounds of 40, used in 5 different handguns.
YMMV.
Dan
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Old January 25, 2001, 10:18 AM   #13
tonyz
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Cassandra

I would suggest that you do some research on powders!
There differances, types, propertys, ect. That way you will have a better understanding about powders. Giving you a better understanding of which powder will work best in differant calibers.
You can start for FREE using the internet.

That said Power Pistol or Hogdgon Universal.

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Old January 27, 2001, 12:24 PM   #14
jtduncan
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Folks:

I, Duncan, revived this thread. I've been doing my research and have talked to Hodgdon and Alliant.

I'd like to use Power Pistol due to its velocity advantage but hate the muzzle flash it produces in 10mm. Very clean burning though. For a 9mm carbine, flash is okay but with a pistol, its right in your face. But is the muzzle flash something you just get used to?

Titegroup is a nice clean burning powder designed for large volume pistol cases. Econmoical just like W231 for generic plinking.

Is there a practical need for an additional 100 fps velocity out of a 10mm like a Glock 20?

Do most of you load different loads? Plinking loads and then some hi power loads? Is all of that hi power stuff infalted and most people use TG or W231 to shoot more 10mm.

I know for hunting, those additional 100 fps may generate into more fpe.

Questions from a newbie.

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Old January 31, 2001, 09:18 AM   #15
Benchrest1000
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I've used Universal Clays with great results.
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Old January 31, 2001, 10:39 AM   #16
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Accurate No. 2 and 5 seem to be good choices for a versatile (9mm, .45 ACP. .40 and 10mm) powder. But, they list data using CCI primers and Hornady cases. How will things vary with Federal primers and either Fed, Win or Starline cases?
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Old January 31, 2001, 10:49 AM   #17
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Accurate #5 or #7 will serve that need well, giving the edge to #5 for generating near identical(or better) velocities with less powder. #2 is just a tad fast for the 10mm, and can generate some rather impressive pressures with the heavire bullets in 40(which doesn't stop me from using it with 180s). Other options include Universal(probably the most versitale powder out there) and Power Pistol.
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Old January 31, 2001, 12:43 PM   #18
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I load AA #7 almost exclusively in my 10. When I was fooling around with minor power loads I tried 231, but if you want the full potential of the 10 to be realized, you'll have to use a slower powder. #7 should be versatile enough to use in the .40. A mid-range 10mm load that I've been using is 10.7grs of #7 under a Montana Gold 155 or Rainier 180. I've loaded to the recommended maximum with 135JHP's, and those are some fire-breathers.
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Old February 11, 2001, 12:15 PM   #19
jtduncan
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RickB et al.

What sized bullets are you shooting in your 10mm/40SW? With a raneg from 135 to 200 grains, it's difficult to pick. 180 seems popular.

I seem drawn to the 155 and 165 weight because I think I get better balance and velocity.

If I want a big bullet, it's a 230 grainer in my 45.

For fast and light, its a 115 in my 9mm keeping in mind the 135s for the 10mm.

9mm shoots 115 to 147
45 ACP shoots 165-230

So with 10mm and 40SW, I think the 155-165 range would be good shooting.

What do you shoot in your 10mm or 40?

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Old July 13, 2001, 05:29 PM   #20
jtduncan
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rickB:

I've got some 155 grain Montana Golds and some 200 grain Rainiers.

What kind of accuracy are you getting out of your MGs and at what distance in what gun?

10.2 gr of AA#7 and a 200 gr Rainier FP and a Glock 20 with a 6" KKM barrel gets me 2-3" groups consistently at 25 yards as a mid-range load.
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Old July 14, 2001, 02:21 AM   #21
Clark
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I did one 40 S&W work up one day with the trigger string:

1) Max book load Power Pistol 135 gr is 9.3 gr
Kel-Tek P40 case bulge at 11.4 gr
Glock 22 case bulge at 11.6 gr

2) Max book load Power Pistol 155 gr is 8.2 gr
Kel-Tek P40 case bulge at 10.8 gr

3) Max book load 3N37 155 gr is 8.1 gr
Kel-Tek P40 case bulge at 10.9 gr


The case support is better in the P40 than the G22. The only explanation
I can give is that the G22 chamber is so loose, the case expands to a
larger volume before it shows the feed ramp imprint.

Getting 25 or 30% extra powder in a 40 S&W was so disappointing after my
9mm experiments [+60%], that I never went back. I can see now that
finding the best powder in 40 S&W is VERY important.
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Old July 14, 2001, 02:30 AM   #22
Clark
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WARNING: CASE BULGES ARE INDICATORS FOR NEAR KABOOM CONDITIONS!

The first sign of case bulge in 40 S&W is probably very close to a kaboom. I don't know, I have not done it.

I do know that the first sign of case bulge in 9mm is within .4 gr of a kaboom. You don't want a kaboom. It can send pistol parts and blood all over that place.

I have now read of someone being killed by a Glock extractor in a kaboom. I personally have seen a CZ52 flying extractor cause enough property damage to suggest lethal power.
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Old July 14, 2001, 02:28 PM   #23
morph
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I use 180 grainers for 10mm. I currently use AA#7 and TG for my powders. AA#7 does a great job for loads that are similar to factory loads. TG is good for a lighter-recoil load that costs less to shoot.
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Old July 15, 2001, 03:30 PM   #24
jtduncan
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TiteGroup loads?
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