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Old June 4, 2001, 04:41 PM   #1
Michael
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I'm nuts about long range shooting. Some of the things that work for the bestrest crowd at shorter ranges don't work at the longer distances, 800+ yards for example.

Things like extreme spread start to mean an awful lot regarding vertical dispersion, trying to keep it all in the X ring. The tried and true method is to get your measure and scale and go to it.

Trouble is that the scale is a Plus or Minus 1/10th grain unit. Your loads are varying by 2/10th of a grain. A bunch.

SO I tried a Promethius measure/scale combination. Accurate to 2/100ths of a grain, if you throw a bad load with this, the inaccuracy is displayed immedietly. The real test is in the shooting. 5 rounds, 1000 yards, into a 3 3/4 inch group with only 7/8ths inch vertical.

These are not for Joe average, but Tubb has a pair, the Canadian Palma 1 and 2 guys own them, and now I can understand why.

If you have the accuracy bug you should check these out.
Expensive and well worth it.
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Old June 9, 2001, 11:23 AM   #2
Joe Portale
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Micheal,

Where did you pick your powder measure up? Is there a web page that we could all take a look at one of these puppies?
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Old June 9, 2001, 02:54 PM   #3
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How much do this little devil cost?
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Old June 9, 2001, 11:10 PM   #4
Michael
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Joe,

There is no web page. The inventor makes these himself to insure quality. It's a true custom piece, and at almost $800.00 complete, it's just not for everyone. If you are a long range accuracy nut or competitor, this is the deal.

Archie, see above. Sit down before reading

ps; Brand cole is the guy to see if you're really interested. brandx375@yahoo.com
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Old June 9, 2001, 11:30 PM   #5
Point Blank
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I too would like to see a picture of that $800 scale!! Being the percise man you are do you seive your powder(seperate big,med. and dust)or just load it all together??
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Old June 9, 2001, 11:43 PM   #6
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Point Blank

PB,

I know Michael PERSONALLY.............

I know how he shoots..........Damn well.

I know Brand PERSONALLY.....

I have seen, and used the unit....

It is a no BS deal, it was made for Pro's, and those who want the BEST available..........

David Tubb owns two of them.......does that tell you anything??.
If your remarks weren't sarcastic, please forgive me, but if they were, we can ALL do without them.

Old saying...."Don't knock it until you tried it".

Goes double if your trying to insult mi amigo's integrity...........fwiw

Again, NO flames intended, but....if the shoe fits wear it.
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Old June 10, 2001, 04:50 AM   #7
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I wasnt being sarcastic.I have read that seperating your powder into these 3 groups will also make a more accurate load,on top of an accurate scale.Just wondered if he or anyone here did that,or tried it,sorry.
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Old June 10, 2001, 10:34 AM   #8
Joe Portale
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Micheal and others,

The idea of a powder scale that can meter to 2/100ths of a grain really interests me. I am sort of an accuracy nut. I love to get old guns like surplus Mausers and Enfields, to do things that because of thier age, they are not suppose to do. Of course, this involves some real precision reloading amoung other things.

For what it is worth, you can buy precision scales that are as accurate as they one Micheal described for less. These scales are intended for chemistry and other "scientific" purpose that are just as accurate. An example of this is the scale that is sold by Dillion. It is either an Ohaus or Digiscale and can be had through a company like Scaleman for about a third less. But if you really need that pretty sky blue, go with the Dillion.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you want a custom made scale like the $800 model, go for it. The tools need to fit the person using them. I am sure the scale is great. All I am saying if you want a scale capable of 2/100ths of a grain, there are options.

My Mrs. is a shooter and is very tolerant of some of my more exhorbatent purchases. Yet, I could just imagine the look on the wife's face when I show here a $800 scale. Or, what part of the anatomy that I would need to have it removed from after she gets through with me!


Now if someone came up with a powder measure that could drop a load to 2/100ths of a grain consistantly, that would interest me.

Joe
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Old June 10, 2001, 11:16 AM   #9
Peter M. Eick
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You could probably get this accuracy with one of the cheaper Metler Balances, but it would sure be slow to load.

My dad (being a research chemist by trade) has several of the expensive Metler's and I found them very hard to use for him. The slightest wind (breath) will change the measurement and cause and error.

Anyway, go to a good chemical supply house and they should be able to set you up with a more accurate balance if you so desire.
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Old June 10, 2001, 11:37 AM   #10
Michael
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PointBlank,

No I don't seive powder. That changes the burn rate in an exponential manner and the results are not predictable.

Peter,

You are correct, there are scales that are more precise. This one was tested against a Denver instruments unit.
The scales you speak of are not suited to loading, far too sensitive with out any damping built in. Measuring a single charge would consume minutes rather than seconds.

Joe,

You could not be more correct. This is a unit for the " One Percenters" in the shooting game, the nuts out for 1 hole groups at 1000 yards( I know it ain't happened ).

Let's do some exemplary math;

NRA has 3 million members, two thirds of the shooting community are not NRA so that gives us a very conservative 9 million humans in the States pulling triggers.
Of that number 3% compete. Of those 3 percent or 270,000 people, only 0.1 percent are accuracy nuts, 270 people.

Only half of those are going to recognize what this little thing will do for their game. They will be the ones explaining it to the rest of the line when the groups start shrinking. The Canadian palma team just got a pair and I'm really anxious to see how that works out for them.

Terry,

Mui Gracia mi Amigo.

Best to all, no flames intended and no offence taken, just sharing information with shooters.
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Old June 12, 2001, 11:50 AM   #11
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Your math's a bit off...

There's more accuracy nuts out there - Big matches, such as the Supershoot, routinely draw around 300 shooters from across the country. NBRSA membership is somewhere around 3,000 or so, if I recall correctly, and I'm sure that IBS membership is also up there. And this isn't counting the more anal-retentive highpower shooters, hard-core varminters, etc...
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Old June 12, 2001, 12:49 PM   #12
Michael
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Bogie,

The math is fine, when examined in context.

Bench rest accuracy shooters are concerned with 1-2-300 yard groups, and the vast majority can't even tell you what charge weight of a powder they shoot. It's all just clicks on the measure loaded right before the match.

Highpower guys with the exception of Tubb and few, very very few others, are quite happy with moa performance, which will win most matches.

Let's kick the game back to past 600 yards, where vertical dispersion gets factored into the game. That's where this measure comes into play, and even then a 1 moa rifle can win a Palma match or 1000 yard comp.

Like I said, this device is only goin to be purchased by that 0.1 percent who have either seen the results 1st hand (that's why I own one), or are after that "one more thing" to try to shrink a group, or imrove consistancy. No help at all to a 100 yard bench rester, ask Speedy G; one of his world records was shot with
( I hope I remeber this correctly from talking to him) a thrown charge loading of W748 that had almost 100fps es in the chrono results. Won the title but would not have been on paper at 1000 yards.

That was my point, nothing more.
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Old June 12, 2001, 03:55 PM   #13
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Just out of curiousity, what are the extreme spreads of velocity from ammo loaded with this measure? Thanks in advance.
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Old June 12, 2001, 09:52 PM   #14
Michael
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Griz,
2705fps 9ES 3SD

Best I've done to date using same everything but with an Ohuas scale is 2705, 12ES 6SD, but not consistantly thru a whole 50 round lot of handloads. If I could I sure would not have ponied up the play money for this thing.
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Old June 17, 2001, 10:13 AM   #15
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Hey folks,

I always thought plus or minus a tenth of a grain for powders was pretty darn accurate. It was certainly more accurate than factory ammo. If you are going to tell me that weighing charges to a few hundreths of a grain is necessary, then I would submit to you that you had better be tightening up the other differences in the rest of the components too. If you weigh match bullets, you will find deviation in their weight. Will you then weigh each bullet and only choose those that weigh within a few hundreths of a specified weight? Will you measure neck thickness on cases and concentricity? I have heard of folks who do these very things, but not to hundreths of a grain. And there is also the primer - what does one do to narrow the deviation in the primer?

When the ultra fellows tell of all the extreme lengths they go to make the more accurate loads, I am amazed by their tenacity. I am not by nature inclined to go as far as the really meticulous folks go. For me, I know that I make load that have the capability of producing more accuracy than I am capable of producing with my shooting skills, and I am OK with that. I am also intrigued by the measures the super accurate loaders go to in their quest for the better load. I submit, however, that if you took all of the super accurate loaders and their load out for a competition, you could probably find a few folks who would be able to do better with less than the super accurate ammo. Why? Because they are better shooters, thats all. Would the better shooters shoot better with super accurate ammo? I'm sure they would.

My point is not that loading for super accuracy is a waste of time. The super guys think of and do things that constantly amaze me, and I find it fascinating. I doubt, however, if there are many of the truly gifted shooters who could would get any better results just by reducing the deviation in powder charges from a tenth of a grain to a hundreth of a grain. I suspect the deviation in primer burn alone is more significant than the powder deviation.

Best wishes,
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Old June 17, 2001, 11:34 AM   #16
Joe Portale
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Dave Willie,

I agree with you. From time to time, I'll kill some time and watch the bench rest guys do their thing at the local range. It is amazing what they bring with them. One guy has a chart with load data based on temperature, relative humdity, phase of the moon and tides. And thier rifles cost more than a good used car. The goal is to put three rounds close together as possible at 100 and 200 yards from a rest. Ya' know what...I can do that with my Garand and give these guys a run for thier money. Once, as an experiment in the effects of a hot barrel, I put 100 rounds through the same 3/4" diamtere hole at 100 yards using the Garand.

For me, I believe that consistency is more important than tenths or hundreths of a grain of powder, bullets or case volume. Of course, one can tighten things up by customizing the ammo through hand loading and other mechanic means. The question is when does the quest for extreme accuracy get to the point of diminishing returns?

I guess it does not matter what others do. If they want to go to extremes in what they do, it is their business. If it makes them happy, that is all that really matters.

Joe
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Old June 17, 2001, 11:51 AM   #17
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A small point, but the benchrest matches I have watched involved a target with like 25 "bulls" on it and one shot is fired at each one. There was no group shooting. I don't participate in this sport, so I could easily be wrong.
While it is true that we can't control all the variables involved in reloading, why not try to control some of them ? Primers are manufactured by someone else, so there isn't much we can do about their consistency other than buying benchrest primers, but we can eliminate other variables in the process. After all, accuracy is nothing more than consistency. As many things as possible happening the same way every time.
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Old June 17, 2001, 12:25 PM   #18
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Hey Joe,

I have three Garands (well, one is supposed to be my wife's), two Springfields and a Win 13. All three are really great guns, but I have not beded or done anything else to tighten them up. Even if I did, I know I am no longer able to put five rounds in a six inch target at 100 yards with any iron sight. My eyes are still good enough that I can keep one inch 100 yard groups with my old heavy barreled Mark X 30-06, but it has a big scope that gathers a lot of light. So, when you tell me you can put a long string in a .75 inch 100 yard group with your Garand, I just have to hang my head in shame and envy your abilities. But that's OK with me. I enjoy the shooting game and all its tinkering with the loading of ammo or trying new equipment, and I truly admire those really special folks who are able to use the same ammo and equipment as others, but they are able to do much better. I guess those folks are gifted in the eye-hand bit, and they never cease to amaze me.

You do have to love those Garands, don't you?

Best wishes Joe,
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Old June 17, 2001, 04:36 PM   #19
Joe Portale
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David Wile,

Thanks for the complement. But that was all rifle.
My Garand is a 1941 Springfield build. The only thing that was done to it was a little work to the gas cylinder and a replacement stock. The original stock was in good shape, but all the cartoshes were there and some guys initials with "June 1943" carved in. Had to pull that off and put it away for safe storage.

When I shot that test, the rifle was locked down solid in an imovable rest that my buddy built. It is sort of like a Ransom rest for rifles. All I did is feed the beast and pull the trigger.

Joe
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Old June 18, 2001, 05:47 PM   #20
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Ah, but there's more of us accuracy fiends out there than you'd imagine - I may be getting one of those scales sometime soon...

I missed seein' Speedy at the Supershoot...
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Old June 18, 2001, 06:23 PM   #21
Michael
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Dave,

Excellent points all around.
There are maybe 100 shooters in the world who are going to look at this monster and see the small benefit gained from the investment.

I've tried to explain that to the inventor, a really sharp guy. Fact is most folks just don't care, or don't shoot long range, and 500 yards or less ain't long range, even in the benchrest game.

Can I use conventional measures to build loads that outperform my shooting abilities.......nope. I fully intend this year to shoot a five round 1/8th moa 1000 yard group from a bipod supported prone position, having already passed the 1/4 moa mark. Plus or minus 1/10th grain won't cut it there.......of course when I have acheived my goal the whole world, along with me, will say.............so?
It's amazing what some folks will do for sport!
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Old June 18, 2001, 08:09 PM   #22
Gary H
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I've been looking at Scaleman's offering and it is rather impressive, but can't find a scale that provides the features of the Dillon Electronic:

http://dillonprecision.com/template/...0&min=0&dyn=1&

Take a look at all of these scales, but didn't find one to match what we normally use in reloading. This is of interest to me since I'm looking for an electronic scale:

http://precision-toploading.balances.com/
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Old June 20, 2001, 08:22 AM   #23
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When you are attemting this degree of accuracy do you consider the relative humidity of the air and the temperature of the powder?
It seems to me that a change in humidity could chane the weight by a grain on a 40-60 grain charge , and change the burn rate as well.
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Old June 20, 2001, 09:23 AM   #24
Michael
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Master Blaster,

First off let me say I was having alittle fun with the 1/4 moa thingie....never done it for a five round group. Couple of times with three rounds way under that, but not five.....best there was 3.75" measured.

Second, sorry you fell out of so many good airplanes

About weight, temp, humidity.

I think the charge weight is going to weigh what it weighs regardless, but I could be in error.

I do take into account temp and humidity, temp drives up velocity and humidity drives down trajectory...no biggies to figure out when you have your data log and lots of shooting time recorded to fall back on.

I do try to shoot for 1000 yard group at last light on our range though so I have similar conditions for each recorded group. Keeps the wind low, light constant, mirage almost nil and the humidity down. Most days.
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