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Old December 22, 2000, 09:15 PM   #1
Jody Hudson
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For the sake of argument; I'd like to put forth the value of rock (or any weighty object) throwing for defense.

First: is the concept of practicing to throw rocks and stones with force and accuracy.

One can always carry a few "pretty polished stones" in the pocket, or even unpolished ones, and they will be available for throwing. They will not get one in trouble with the police or at the airport metal detector.

One can achieve great accuracy, speed and reliability with rock throwing - and great damage can be done on an adversary or food source of small to fairly large size - especially if a myriad of sizes and weights are practiced with.

Head shots are practiced for. For instance there was an old baseball player (a pitcher I think), Chuck Conners I think it was, who killed an attacking Cougar with a large rock, according to what I was told.

If one were in a 7-11 hold up (for instance) a can of soup thrown quickly and well to the bad guy's head would drop or kill him as well as a pistol and it's not likely one would go to jail or spend much time in court.

With four to six feet of paracord and a small leather pouch, added to lots of practice, some stones and a sling will increase the range and speed of the stone up to a power similar to a large pistol round and beyond. For instance an egg sized stone and a three or four foot sling will put the stone (a practiced slinger is entertained here) through even some "bullet proof glass". AND a sling is capable of throwing such a stone at least 100 yards with "head shot" accuracy. Lots of practice is required however.

Sooooo I posit here that a pocket full of stones, some strong cord and a small leather pouch with LOTS of practice will give one wonderful advantage with thrown or slung stones -- David did win against Goliath... In retrospect Goliath didn't stand a chance. I hear from an associate, who lived in Israel, that even today the shepard kids will "always" kill a snake at up to fifty yards with a stone and a sling and will "always" kill a dog or wolf at 75 to 100 yards with a sling and stone. We used to ALL rabbit hunt with thrown stones when I was young -- head shots -- and dinner. We missed some but we didn't practice every day.



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Old June 7, 2001, 02:44 AM   #2
eyeball
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just like baseball baby
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Old June 7, 2001, 05:04 AM   #3
PreserveFreedom
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If too many people read this, Kalifornia may outlaw the picking up of stones.
 
Old June 7, 2001, 07:37 AM   #4
Joe Demko
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Not really disagreeing with you, BUT...
If the sling is so lethal, why is it that confrontations between sling-wielding Palestinians (using ball-bearings as well as rocks) and rifle-wielding Israeli soldiers always end with all the fatalities on the Palestinian side?
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Old June 7, 2001, 08:19 AM   #5
Mike in VA
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Though I agree with your basic premise, and I was a good shot with a wrist rocket and OK with a sling as a kid, I'd still rather have a .45, FWIW. M2
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Old June 7, 2001, 08:21 AM   #6
Jody Hudson
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I've spoken to some of the folks that are hired to fight over there, in Kosovo and in Ireland. It is not always the rifle that is the winner. Those I know carry rifles of course and are well trained and well experienced enough to be hired for the expertise they have.

One of the things that they have found is that the bullet resistent glass of the HumVs that they use, are not even much blemished by the .308s that are shot at them. The rocks from the slings will often smash the windows so badly that they can't see out of them easily. The problem with the sling is that it is hard to hide and shoot from a little peep hole. During the two or three revolutions it takes for the sling to get up to full power, the rifle will usually take it's toll -- if the rifleman sees the slinger.
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Old June 7, 2001, 08:32 AM   #7
Jody Hudson
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Hi Mike,

You obviously know the difference between a sling shot (rubber bands) and a sling (which is whirled and released). The most powerful wrist rockets are capable with accuracy and enough power with a ball bearing for instance, to kill with a head shot. However, the sling, with a boiled egg for instance (the projectile of choice in some areas and the original war-projectile in many areas) is capable of crushing the skull and capable of more range and equal accuracy.

I too prefer the firearm. However my argument here is partly that we forget the ease and power of the sling and that we can take stones and a sling anywhere!!!! When I go to the woods where there are dogs and cougars -- I don't even consider a sling or sling shot for defense and personally I would not even IF I were good enough. Make mine 9x18, .9mm, .45, .44 mag, .357 and most of all .223 and 12 gauge. But none of those will pass muster in an airport, a police search, or any other kind of check. A few pretty rocks some 550# cord and a piece of leather would not get me stopped anywhere, I'll bet.
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Old June 7, 2001, 09:46 AM   #8
PaladinX13
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Interesting idea and I take your message to heart that we must not ignore the possibilities and advantages of the sling. Hell, I'd support it just on the basis of honest recreation. On the other hand, as far as self-defense is concerned... a sling seems to have a fairly limited application. More or less, to kill something at a distance that you know is coming.

As an avid knife thrower, let me suggest something (no not throwing knives)- or rather agree with something you started saying- everyone learn to throw with accuracy and power! It's FUN! You need this skill for several sports anyways and opens up recreational activities like baseball, boomerang, darts, knife/spear/hatchet throwing, etc. It's healthy. Get outside more, good for warming up (pacing from the target back and forth, bending to pick up thrown objects, etc.), builds co-ordination and strength, etc. Finally, it's good for self-defense.

Floyd Lee Fugatt (master knife thrower) says: A 4 1/2lb singlejack [hammer] will stop a 2000lb bull dead in the grass. I know cuz I watched my Grandpa do it. The hammer has several advantages over a bladed weapon. 1.) It don't get stuck in bodies. 2) Blunt trauma has way more stopping power than bleeding the critter out. 3) They are common and not difficult to find. 4) They are legal to have and have other uses so the questiion "Hey boy wachu doin with dat hamma" has easily believable answers. The Viking types often attached a long rawhide thong to a short handled hammer so they could knock the crap out of horsemen and snap the hammer back to their hand. I have done this and a quick WARNING is that you don't completely miss your target. You are likely to have your arm yanked real bad otherwise! A 3lb ball peen hammer is also easier to conceal and carry than a gun cuz there ain't no sights or triggers to worry about.

My own submission is if we simply carry around smooth stones (flat ovals that fit in the palm), they'll work as a fist-load for straight punching, hammer w/ a downstrike, and a deadly projectile. It can sit in your pocket as a "paperweight", keepsake, or- under questioning- simply a rock you picked off the street. So you've got a concealed and legal weapon that's quickly drawn and used both in CQ and at range.
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Old June 7, 2001, 09:56 AM   #9
Erich
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Fun thread!

My parents (well-intentioned liberals) would never let me near guns when I was a kid (perhaps explaining my adult arsenal). But we lived in the boonies, so I got to be pretty good with a sling . . . it was fun and effective, but it needs a big area for practicing. I recall that lug nuts over a piece of nylon cord (one end of which was tied around my wrist) wound up being my eventual favorite combo. I suspect I couldn't hit a thing today with one all these years later, but I consistently was able to hit coke-can-sized rocks at over ten yards. (Consistently hitting a snake at 50 yards is a long ways better than I ever got.) The sling had POWER, too: I accidentally blew a hole in a barn wall when I missed a bird at somewhere between 75 and 100 feet.

You can certainly TAKE a sling anywhere, but can you USE it anywhere? I suppose my concerns about the sling for defense are that it takes a fair amount of time and space to use. The self-defense situations I've encountered generally had me in a confined area or needing to respond more quickly than I'd be able to with a sling: shaking out the sling, digging a rock out of my pocket, winding up and letting loose.

Hucking rocks at something needs a specialized skill that I don't have. My little brother was an excellent pitcher - college scholarship. He could throw a perfectly-aimed ball with enough "English" on it to do some harm. I would not have wanted him to nail me with a rock when he was in his prime (and he actually did nail some kid with a rock in a fight and wound up getting juvie charges against him - later dropped when cops sorted it all out). I'm a whole lot stronger than Mark, but there's no way I could deliver a ball or a rock on target the way he could. Different muscle groups and a whole lot more training on his part. I think I'd rip my shoulder out trying.

I don't know. Everyone's been in a rock fight when he was a kid. I feel that a lot of effective self-defense is having the ability to effectively threaten harm to actually inflict harm. I would just be afraid that if one wound up with a rock, a mugger or robber would be A) amused and B) ready to show you now to bring a rock to a gun fight. In the event of a surprise attack against a robber at a 7-11, I'd rather bash him over the head with the can of soup (I'd be more likely to hit to the side of the base of the skull, actually) than try to hit him with it from across the store. From across the store, if all I had was a can of soup, I'd be on my hands and knees, backing away.

But I like this thread a lot! Makes me want to find someplace to play with a sling again.
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Old June 7, 2001, 10:35 AM   #10
Glamdring
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A Sling is a very powerful weapon, but from what I have learned in trying to use one it would take a LOT of practice just to get sorta reliable with it.

I do think that one could become fairly well rounded by learning sticks, staff, nun chucks, and the Sling. Those are all peasent weapons that one can procure anywhere.

Some day I might try using a staff sling.
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Old June 7, 2001, 02:36 PM   #11
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Very interesting post. I personally would like to see the face on the cop as he is sorting out the dead/injured bad-guy. Hmmm. I'm going to the beach next week. Maybe I'll have to put something together and report back.
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Old June 7, 2001, 02:39 PM   #12
C.R.Sam
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I'm pretty good with a wrist rocket. Did take a guy down at about 50 yds with a sturnum hit.

Caution when tryin to learn to use a Sling.....make sure you are in the MIDDLE of a good clear area. Nuthin like takin out a car window Behind you. Specially if it isn't your car.

I don't think either is good for CQ defense due to the time required to deploy.

From what I have tried, Glamdring is dead on re the practice required.

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Old June 7, 2001, 04:59 PM   #13
eyeball
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hey do you know where I could get one of these david-goliath slings? i know where to get sling shots thats easy but i have never seen a sling. are they illegal in california or something?
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Old June 8, 2001, 01:10 AM   #14
fastforty
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Interesting

Basic primer: http://www.pipeline.com/~jburdine/page2.html
Lotsa info: http://www.pipeline.com/~jburdine/page3.html
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Old June 8, 2001, 09:48 AM   #15
Jody Hudson
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Nice sources FastForty! Thanks.

I forgot to mention that there are numerous lengths of slings as well. One of the old Israeli pictures I saw showed a sling that was adjusted by wrapping the cords from short to long. Another picture showed the sling carried in the belt of the robe, with a large rock in the split pouch that was tied in, so that it could be used as a corded club.

I have not read up on this sort of thing for perhaps 35 years, until I realized that my daughter was not learning to throw. So we did a home-school study of throwing, weapons, etc. She loves to throw now.

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Old June 8, 2001, 06:11 PM   #16
PaladinX13
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Another link:

http://www.sonic.net/~quine/sling.html

and be sure to visit the parent site of the above link for tons of info on throwing weapons!
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Old June 10, 2001, 09:47 PM   #17
Snap
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When I was young, I used to use a piece of PVC pipe. Put the rock into the end near your hand, and use an over-the-shoulder swing. The rock will fly out VERY fast, and with practice can be very accurate. There is an ancient weapon used by some tribes in, I think, South America much like this called an axlotle (I KNOW I mangled that word )

EDIT: I found the correct word is "Atlatl" and can be found below.
http://www.atlatl.com/mechanics.html
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Old June 12, 2001, 09:39 AM   #18
Byron Quick
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In my younger days, I practiced with both the sling and the staff sling. I never achieved outstanding accuracy with either one. However, I have thrown a river rock as big as my fist through a 3/4 inch piece of plywood at a hundred yards with a staff sling. The stone would whir audibly on its way downrange. The sling requires much time to master and much practice to maintain mastery. But it is fun and quiet.

I would more place it in a role for clandestine hunting for small game in situations where you do not want to attract attention than in an offensive or defensive role.

It has some of the same disadvantages as reloading a muzzleloader.
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