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Old August 15, 2014, 05:22 PM   #1
Uncle Ethan
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Zastava 999

I bought a Z-999 [improved copy of a Sig-P226] and it came today to my gun store. It came with only one magazine, anyone know where to buy additional magazines?
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Old August 15, 2014, 08:21 PM   #2
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It isn't really a 226 at all. Much closer to a P88.

Anyway, these should fit - the 999 is just an update on the CZ-99. I'd call and ask before ordering, though:
http://www.cdnnsports.com/magazines/...l#.U-6xnflZ2q0
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Old August 15, 2014, 11:54 PM   #3
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There are also mags that work with a little work on the mag catch slot. Check this site for some good info on the 99/999 Zastava's:
http://www.cz99.org/
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Old August 16, 2014, 12:07 AM   #4
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I don't know about modifying magazines when factory mags are $20, but at least that site confirms that all of the 99 and 999 guns use the same magazine.

I had a TZ-99. It was very nice. Just thick. The Walther controls were so much better than what Sig came up with.
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Old August 16, 2014, 12:26 AM   #5
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That of course is up to the individual but Beretta 92 mags can be found anywhere and will be for the foreseeable future including in bulk at gun shows, often pretty cheap. CDNN is great and I do a fair amount of business with them but you didn't add $9.95 shipping (+tax if in TX.) and while they have them today, they might not tomorrow or next week and when they're gone they may never be back. CDNN is a liquidator, not a stocking dealer. When you invest in a niche gun it's good to know your options.
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Old August 16, 2014, 11:50 AM   #6
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Thanks to all for the info. I used the link and bought 2 mags, hopefully they will be in stock. I am unfamiliar with the CZ weapons, but have Sig P-220 and P-226. Except for the hammer drop and controls being combined and ambi [and the weapon being not as bulky] it seems to be pretty much the same as my Sigs. However with the price I won't be as unhappy losing it to impound if it ever is needed for self defense. I would hate to lose either my 1911's or my Sigs to Court impounds that never seem to be released.
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Old August 16, 2014, 12:43 PM   #7
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It isn't really a niche gun. It is a currently produced and imported gun. CDNN has good prices, but you can buy CZ-999 mags from other sources.

Ethan, it is Sig-like enough, but mainly aesthetically. If the slide was a different shape you probably wouldn't have thought it was based on a Sig at all.

The ambi slide, magazine and decocker controls are pretty cool. I'd call it an improvement on the basic 220 design.
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Old August 16, 2014, 04:23 PM   #8
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However with the price I won't be as unhappy losing it to impound if it ever is needed for self defense. I would hate to lose either my 1911's or my Sigs to Court impounds that never seem to be released.
I'll keep saying this. If I came to you today and said that for $800 I could save your life you wouldn't pay it, but if I said $500 you would? I am in no way saying you need to spend $800 for a decent gun. But the idea that cost should mean you carry something other than what you prefer is crazy to me. Unless it's an antique, out of production, or a family heirloom, it can be replaced. You can't. Carry what works best for you. If I lose my carry gun in the process of saving my life it will be the best investment I ever made.
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Old August 16, 2014, 04:33 PM   #9
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The 999 is a 1st quality service pistol. The current US production Sigs are not.

It is a nice idea, but doesn't have any application to this topic.
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Old August 16, 2014, 05:01 PM   #10
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The 999 is a 1st quality service pistol. The current US production Sigs are not.
I would disagree that current production US SIGs are subpar. And yes I've owned both new and old, 11 of them I think.

Quote:
It is a nice idea, but doesn't have any application to this topic.
Seeing as how the OP brought it up, I think it does. Part of the reason for the OP buying the Zastava in the first place is he is afraid of the cost of replacing his SIG. I am merely suggesting that he doesn't need to worry about it and can save himself the money. Ball is in his court.
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Old August 16, 2014, 05:06 PM   #11
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Then you should spend some time on Sigforum, or read more articles by former Sig employee Todd Green.

The OP said he'd rather carry a less expensive gun. Glock, Beretta and FN are also less expensive. Would you have posted if he said Glock rather than CZ-999?

Nope.
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Old August 16, 2014, 05:11 PM   #12
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Then you should spend some time on Sigforum, or read more articles by former Sig employee Todd Green.
Todd's current carry gun is a US production SIG P229. He switched to it after his recent sickness as he felt it offered him the best performance given his current ailments. I am well aware of Todd Green and the Sig forums. pistol-training.com is an excellent resource for any shooter.

Quote:
Would you have posted if he said Glock rather than CZ-999?
Yes I would and I have before. I didn't in any way say anything negative about the Zastava, now did I? Assumptions are unwarranted.
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Old August 16, 2014, 05:28 PM   #13
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So the point your making is that people should carry their most expensive gun, because an expensive gun is more likely to save your life?

It strikes me that the OP prefers a roughly Sig-like gun that he won't be inhibited in its use by concerns outside self defense. You seem to be saying that such feelings are wrong, so people should carry guns that make them uncomfortable.

I'm sure Todd is comfortable with his 229 because he's shot it so much.


Ultimately, your argument is to favor your bias toward a gun and ignore a different bias. It seems the OP has found his happy balance that won't negatively impact his street decisions, and that's a good thing.
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Old August 16, 2014, 05:36 PM   #14
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So the point your making is that people should carry their most expensive gun, because an expensive gun is more likely to save your life?
Actually no, which is why I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
I am in no way saying you need to spend $800 for a decent gun.
Quote:
You seem to be saying that such feelings are wrong, so people should carry guns that make them uncomfortable.
Once again no, which is why I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TunnelRat
Carry what works best for you.
By that I meant carry what you shoot the best and is of a size and weight that is comfortable for you to carry.

Quote:
Ultimately, your argument is to favor your bias toward a gun and ignore a different bias.
That's not my argument at all, and I'd really appreciate if you would stop making up statements and assigning them to me arbitrarily. Enough is enough. I said my piece for the OP to consider.
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Old August 16, 2014, 06:13 PM   #15
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I read TunnelRat's comment as, "Don't worry about cost when choosing a firearm for SD." I agree.

If your BEST option (the gun you have the most confidence in) costs $300, roll with it; but if your BEST option costs $1,300, don't carry a $300 gun for fear of the monetary loss.

I've always looked at a carry gun similarly to how I look at a helmet; "If I were going to crash today, what would I want to be wearing?" Choose accordingly.


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Old August 16, 2014, 06:48 PM   #16
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Please don't confuse this Balkan contraption with anything that comes from Ceska Zbrojovka. They are completely unrelated.
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Old August 16, 2014, 07:44 PM   #17
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The 999 is a 1st quality service pistol. The current US production Sigs are not.
I disagree with you about the quality of current Sigs (established in an exchange between us in another thread), but aside from that I'm curious why the 999 gets rated a "1st quality service pistol." I know little about the design, but Wikipedia lists the users as Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, South Africa, with few specifics. By contrast, dozens if not hundreds of first-rate departments and militaries use Sigs. Sigs are very proven. Quality control burps aren't damning of quality guns. If they were, the Gen 4 transition should have wiped Glock off the map, right?

Maybe the 999 is awesome, but I just don't see where it has proven itself a "1st quality service pistol" yet.

As a poster said in tahuna's "would you rather" thread, price does not necessarily equal quality, but it usually does. I tend to agree.
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Old August 16, 2014, 09:12 PM   #18
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Sigs have also been withdrawn from department service several times until the Sig fixer van can get done at the other departments.


The CZ-99 is a service pistol, and has been adopted as a service pistol several times over. It has also been licensed and made by two countries that don't generally screw around with crummy designs - South Africa and Israel. Apparently, being at war all the time doesn't encourage embracing junk.

We currently live in a market that is full of two kinds of service pistols - ones designed to sell to civilians, and ones designed for military sales and can pass adoption tests. The most problematic guns in the last 10 years have been that first category. The CZ-99 falls into the other. It isn't sexy, tiny, light, have a 4 pound trigger and doesn't come in fun colors. But it is solidly constructed and reliable.

This isn't a Witness or Tristar. This is a gun like the Daewoo or Makarov - a proven military piece. Like Sigs were when they were made in Germany.
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Old August 16, 2014, 09:57 PM   #19
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You made a great choice indeed. I picked one up early Summer (Palmetto STate Armory had a $299 OTD sale) and I find it to be empirically outstanding--It's at the top of it's class in its category.
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Old August 16, 2014, 10:49 PM   #20
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Sigs have also been withdrawn from department service several times until the Sig fixer van can get done at the other departments.
Can you name a single well-established brand of service pistol that hasn't been withdrawn from service at some point? For maintenance or other issues? If not, I'd suggest that pistol hasn't been a service pistol long enough. HKs have. Glocks have. Berettas have. Rugers have. Smiths have. Is there any evidence that the Sig withdrawals have been disproportionately high?

Quote:
The CZ-99 is a service pistol, and has been adopted as a service pistol several times over. It has also been licensed and made by two countries that don't generally screw around with crummy designs - South Africa and Israel. Apparently, being at war all the time doesn't encourage embracing junk.
Again, that's a very small sample. It might well mean it's a great pistol, but you posted that it was a "1st quality service pistol." In my eyes, a handful of smaller military forces for a relatively short time aren't enough to bear that out. Again, it may be true, but "1st quality" suggests it's on the same level as guns like Glocks, Sigs, and HKs. I just don't see the evidence it's that proven. Nothing against the gun, 10 years from now it may have really shown its worth, but a service weapon doesn't just automatically get the stamp of being "1st quality". It has to earn that reputation over time and over a wide variety of service conditions. That's my opinion only.

Quote:
This is a gun like the Daewoo or Makarov - a proven military piece. Like Sigs were when they were made in Germany.
Both the Daewoo and Makarov have longer service records, although I'll grant that the Daewoo is geographically limited. Also, as before, we disagree on Sigs. I believe Sigs are absolutely proven military pistols (the classic P-line, anyway). A handful of design flops and highly internet-broadcast quality control burps aren't to be ignored, but they don't demolish the pedigree of a pistol that took decades to earn it. Again, if that were the case, we would talk about Glocks the same way.
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Old August 16, 2014, 11:11 PM   #21
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"Pedigree". What is the pedigree of a pistol that was designed in Switzerland, finalized and produced by an old German gun company, but is then suddenly produced in a new US plant with completely new methods and nearly half the parts re-designed by Americans - many of which are made by subcontractors.

Pedigree is the problem. Just as Taurus continues to sell evenly grossly unsafe and haphazardly constructed pistols based on the a reputation earned from correctly using S&W and Beretta production lines, Sig USA and their products have little to do with the firearms that passed so many military trials in the '70s and '80s.

On a good day, they are excellent clones of a German product. On bad days they are Caspian 1911s that don't work, 320s that peen themselves in to unreliability and 938s that aren't reliable enough for self defense.

In terms of Sig's reach, how many national militaries actually adopted a post a machined slide Sig for national service? 2? 3? Is it actually more than the CZ-99?

The USP line alone has been adopted more times to national service.
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Old August 17, 2014, 12:22 AM   #22
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RX-79G. I don't know where you get that current us production sig's are not quality pistols? And as far as former sig employee Todd Green go's maybe he's just p/o at sig? I have two newer sig's frame's made in Germany & slide's in the us. I have a 226(40s&w/357sig) & a 220 combat(45acp) got them new around 2004-2006. They have been 100% for me & are top of line IMO.
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Old August 17, 2014, 01:13 AM   #23
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I watched over a period of 15 years the Sigforum go from an enthusiast website to a place to bitch and reminisce. Forums frequented by high volume shooters also appear to treat Sig problems since the Cohen take-over as an open secret.

People to find out about:
Todd Green
"The Dentist" and his assembled ammunition and failure data.
Ron Cohen, who "transformed" first Kimber, then Sig.


TFL is fun, but a little provincial. There are many places out there where civilian, military and PD trainers post frequently about what they see in classes and what comes off the telex. The same places that the Gen 3 .40 Glock light problem came to light, the Gen 4 Glock issues, the M&P full size 9mm accuracy problems.

Everybody wants to treat reported problem trends as internet myth. Internet myth is as much as a myth. If Taurus, Sig, S&W and Kimber have the same problems as everyone else, then we'd hear just as much crap about HK, FN and Walther. Strangely, you hear almost nothing about certain brands. There were almost no reported problems with Sig before the mid-90s.

Believe whatever you want based on your two examples. I'm not saying Sigs have a 50% failure rate - just that the problems are far more widespread with modern Sigs than competing brands OR earlier eras.

And a whole bunch of people agree with me.
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Old August 17, 2014, 01:18 AM   #24
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I'm not sure if it's intended to be, but the tone of your posts is condescending. I am well aware of everyone you suggested I "find out about", I am well aware of the recent history of Sig, and SigForum is just a forum like any other forum, of which I regularly peruse about a half-dozen. Every internet forum combined is still a fairly small sample of the firearms market. I know a lot of shooters - perhaps literally dozens of shooters - with sizable collections who have never posted on a gun forum in their lives.

I do my research. I do my reading. Having seen the same information, I have come to a different conclusion. If you can't have the debate assuming I'm an intellectual equal who has done my due diligence, it's a pointless debate. If you want to provide evidence, making vague allusions about things I should look into and learn about is unhelpful.

A lot of people agree with me, too. Like the Secret Service. And the SEALs.
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Old August 17, 2014, 01:20 AM   #25
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You realize I was responding to Volkstrum, right?
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