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Old August 10, 2014, 04:30 PM   #51
oldbadger
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Ferguson vs Allen

Quoting steve4102
"Is there a difference between what she did and what Dwayne Ferguson did?

She illegally brought a firearm into NJ, Dwayne Ferguson illegally brought a firearm into a school. Both claimed they did not know the law.

I see no difference, yet many of you that are pleading her case and think the charges against her should be dropped are the same people that thought Dwayne Ferguson should have been punished to the full extent of the law."

Respectfully there is quite a difference.

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-regi...chool-20140327

It does not look like the charges are being dropped for Mrs. Allen.

and this

http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/10/gu...siting-school/

I have a real problem believing two things, 1) He FORGOT? 2)As an anti gun activist he must have been at least knowledgeable enough to know that carrying into a school was illegal.

Other members have posted on the topic of discretion on the part of the prosecutor. Discretion could easily have started with the original arresting officer.
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Old August 10, 2014, 05:30 PM   #52
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LOL, seems like lots of charged folks claim to not know the law.
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Old August 10, 2014, 06:40 PM   #53
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Let's avoid the police bashing.
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Old August 10, 2014, 06:53 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbadger
I have a real problem believing two things, 1) He FORGOT? 2)As an anti gun activist he must have been at least knowledgeable enough to know that carrying into a school was illegal.
He wasn't just an anti-gun activist, he was an active proponent of the very law under which he was arrested. If he wasn't lying about not knowing the law, then he had no business having promoted the law.

He must have attended the Nancy Pelosi school of public administration: "We'll just have to pass it to see what it says."
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Old August 10, 2014, 07:29 PM   #55
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divided we fail

The statement that we want some to go to jail and others to be forgiven isn't true nor is it the point.

The point is that gun laws are bad, penalize good people and these are both examples show they negatively affected other wise law abiding citizens. (some just more than others)

In this woman's case, there were 4 options:
-officer could have let her go with a warning and good information
-they could have let her go as amnesty was still in effect
-they could have put her in PTI, pre-trial intervention
-send her to trial and minimum 3 years time with no reduction

This same group just let a football player enter PTI after beating his girlfriend unconscience in an elevator. He will not have a record if he completes the conditions.

They are sending a clear message.

If you have a gun or even hollow points without a gun, you are worse in the eyes of NJ law than a man who beats a woman senseless.

My take away is to stay away.
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Old August 11, 2014, 12:25 PM   #56
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The girl's attorney is Evan Nappen. He's well known in South Jersey as the go-to lawyer for gun issues, and I'm sure he's had cases with the Atlantic County prosecutor in the past. So, to the lawyers here reading this, do you think the steadfast-ness of the prosecutor here is a slap to Evan Nappen from past cases?
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Old August 11, 2014, 02:05 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndsojourn
The girl's attorney is Evan Nappen. He's well known in South Jersey as the go-to lawyer for gun issues, and I'm sure he's had cases with the Atlantic County prosecutor in the past. So, to the lawyers here reading this, do you think the steadfast-ness of the prosecutor here is a slap to Evan Nappen from past cases?
I would not assume so, at least without some strong, direct evidence that there's something personal at work. There seems to be a consistent policy in New Jersey to vigorously enforce the gun laws.
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Old August 11, 2014, 06:24 PM   #58
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it is in USA today

it's not front page news but at least it's posted.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...lumn/13862831/


Hope this puts some pressure on them to clear all who are imprisoned in NJ for carrying (il)legally.
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Old August 11, 2014, 06:59 PM   #59
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"do you think the steadfast-ness of the prosecutor here is a slap to Evan Nappen from past cases?"
Attorney's are paid by the hour, so if anything, it'd be a favor, right? I, too, am astonished they are proceeding so resolutely along a track bound to sully the names/careers of everyone involved.* Someone must really be persuading them that they have to be tough on gun crime right now...(hint, hint; who else is so fixed in his righteous hatred of guns to make himself/his look like fools pursuing them?)

TCB

*Not because what she did isn't 'illegal,' which it is, but because it's a hard sell to convince people that throwing a loving single mother of three in the slammer for years over a victimless crime was the right thing to do. Campaign attack ad gold right there.
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Old August 11, 2014, 08:20 PM   #60
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The law is what the law is. I have read nothing so far that Allen is being prosecuted for any crimes she didn't commit or being prosecuted beyond the level of the law. She was arrested for an illegal gun (not legal as implied by the title of the thread) and ammo in New Jersey. Now she gets her time in court. Nothing is mandated in the law saying she should be given anything less. If it happens, that is great, but that isn't some sort of obligation of the state to do so. It is a shame that she isn't, but the state doesn't really make allowances because she is a loving mother of three.

The notion that the prosecutor is doing this to rack up hours is a bit silly given they are paid on salary. The defense, however, not being a state's attorney, is likely paid by the hour. I did get a kick out of this. He has a link on his OWN website so that you can donate to her legal defense fund.

http://www.evannappen.com/

Quote:
*Not because what she did isn't 'illegal,' which it is, but because it's a hard sell to convince people that throwing a loving single mother of three in the slammer for years over a victimless crime was the right thing to do.
This law does not specify that there be a victim for prosecution.
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Old August 12, 2014, 08:35 AM   #61
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It's really this simple, New Jersey is saying if we're willing to do this to a mother of 3, imagine what we'll do to you if you bring a gun here. Guys if you don't live here you don't know just how toxic NJ is towards gun owners.

Now the sad part is if she was in a gang and did a drive-by she'd probably get 6 months and probation. :P
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Old August 12, 2014, 09:10 AM   #62
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^^^NJgunowner, that's all well and good if the NJ authorities broadcast an announcement on the Philly TV stations so it becomes well known, but they haven't done that. And she's nowhere near the first 'outsider' caught with a gun in NJ. Numerous people from the suburban Philly area have been caught in NJ and you don't hear a thing. And since there's nothing the anti-gun crowd can gain from this, the lamestream TV news is hush-hush about the whole story.

From DNS:
"Nothing is mandated in the law saying she should be given anything less. If it happens, that is great, but that isn't some sort of obligation of the state to do so. It is a shame that she isn't, but the state doesn't really make allowances because she is a loving mother of three."

I believe it's mandated that she gets a minimum of 3 1/2 years to a max of 10 years. Since the prosecutor denied her the pre-trial intervention program, the judge must sentence her to a min of 3 1/2 years, unless the jury finds her not guilty.
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Old August 12, 2014, 09:22 AM   #63
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We can argue about it all day I guess, but in the end ignorance of the law is not protection from the law. There's a very good chance she's going to get the 3.5 years in jail, at which point Christie will probably step in after a couple of months and commute the sentence.
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Old August 12, 2014, 10:49 AM   #64
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Quote:
From DNS:
"Nothing is mandated in the law saying she should be given anything less. If it happens, that is great, but that isn't some sort of obligation of the state to do so. It is a shame that she isn't, but the state doesn't really make allowances because she is a loving mother of three."

I believe it's mandated that she gets a minimum of 3 1/2 years to a max of 10 years. Since the prosecutor denied her the pre-trial intervention program, the judge must sentence her to a min of 3 1/2 years, unless the jury finds her not guilty.
Yep, that is the law. Nothing says they have to let her go. Nothing says they have to let her take PTI. Nothing says they have to dismiss the charges. She broke the law and now gets due process and she is going to get to have her day in court.
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Old August 12, 2014, 11:42 AM   #65
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DNS --

I agree that, according to the facts as we know them, she broke the law. The question in my mind is the lack of prosecutorial discretion. Prosecutors use discretion every day in deciding whether to prosecute and how to prosecute. Sending this woman to prison for three and a half years is, IMO, a poor way to expend governmental resources.

There are three justifications for imprisoning someone: deterrence, prevention, and punishment in order to appease victims so they will not seek justice on their own.

Here, there are no victims. What she did is not an act which is "malum in se" or one which is inherently wrong. It therefore does not cry out for punishment. Throwing her in prison will not prevent her from committing other crimes because she is an otherwise law abiding citizen. There is arguably some deterrent value for imprisoning her but it is weak. It is unlikely to deter other out of state residents with no clue about New Jersey law.

Against this, weigh the cost of prosecution and imprisonment. Consider the hardship it will have on this woman's children. Also consider the disrespect it engenders for the law and for authority. Fully prosecuting this woman makes no sense unless she is being offered as a sacrifice on the alter of gun grabber political correctness. Those hungry wolves are never satisfied.
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Old August 12, 2014, 03:32 PM   #66
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KyJim, that is all well and good, but how you feel and how I feel about what is or is not justice and how the law should be applied really isn't the issue here. Yes, the prosecution can use discretion, but it does not mean they have to use it. Like I said, it is a shame she isn't being given a break, nobody has to give her a break.

I think she should have gotten PTI from everything I read, but PTI does not have to be given.

Hey, even Shaneen admits that she broke the law, that she respects the law and takes responsibility for her mistakes, and she says this was a mistake. That is good. As a person who takes responsibility for her mistakes and who breaks the law in the process, she seems bent on not taking responsibility for this so-called mistake.

http://www.ammoland.com/2014/08/reci...#axzz3AD7eLx9c (see first video, starting at about 1:30 and the 2 minutes. )

Quote:
I respect the law ... I take the responsibility of my mistake and that is exactly what it was, an honest mistake.
Her lawyer needs to stop her from talking in public to reporters.


Either you take responsibility or you don't. She
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Old August 12, 2014, 08:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
but how you feel and how I feel about what is or is not justice and how the law should be applied really isn't the issue here. Yes, the prosecution can use discretion, but it does not mean they have to use it.
Yes, I know all that -- better than you probably give me credit for. But public attitudes toward a law or a given situation do matter, more so coming from the local folks but publicity and buzz nationally have often helped right an injustice.

Quote:
Her lawyer needs to stop her from talking in public to reporters.
I again disagree. She has no defense except the court of public opinion and her regrets sound more sincere coming from her than from her lawyer.
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Old August 12, 2014, 08:49 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyJim
...She has no defense except the court of public opinion and her regrets sound more sincere coming from her than from her lawyer.
Yes, that's pretty much all she has.

There's a saying among lawyers:"If the facts are against you, pound the law. If the law is against you, pound the facts. If they're both against you pound the table."

And in some situations, like this one, raising a ruckus won't be as useful as trying to generate sympathy because of the harshness and injustice of the application of the law here. We've discussed the difficulty of generating sympathy for pro-gun issues. This might be one case where sympathy migh get some traction.
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Old August 12, 2014, 09:01 PM   #69
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Well KyJim, if she is the honest person as claimed, willing to take responsibility for her actions as she claims, along with her respect for the law, then she should have pleaded guilty, but apparently she doesn't want to take such responsibility and feels the law she respects should not apply to her.
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Old August 13, 2014, 12:08 AM   #70
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One thing to keep in mind through all this is that there seems to be an undercurrent opinion in this thread that the general public in NJ would support leniency for Ms. Allen.

Remember, that the people of NJ voted for the legislators that passed the law in question and continue to vote for legislators who support such laws. The strong implication is that a significant percentage (if not the majority) of the people in NJ WANT laws like the one that tripped up Ms. Allen and they want the authorities to enforce those laws and actively prosecute offenders.
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Old August 13, 2014, 06:30 AM   #71
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NJgunowner, what makes you think Christie will commute the sentence?

He could stop this right now.
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Old August 13, 2014, 08:20 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNS
KyJim, that is all well and good, but how you feel and how I feel about what is or is not justice and how the law should be applied really isn't the issue here. Yes, the prosecution can use discretion, but it does not mean they have to use it. Like I said, it is a shame she isn't being given a break, nobody has to give her a break.
Justice, essentially, should be meting out punishment commensurate with the crime. In that sense, the very notion of prosecutorial discretion is contrary to the concept of justice, because it is supposed to be judges and/or juries to decide guilt and punishment, not prosecutors.

However, the fact that prosecutorial discretion does exist and is practiced suggests that it should be practiced fairly and with some consistency. The fact that this same prosecutor allowed a public figure to enter the PTI program over a much more serious crime tells us that this prosecutor is abusing his discretion.

Unless the prosecutor has a change of heart and drops the charges (or allows PTI), I think we'll have to hope for jury nullification. If there was ever a case that cried out for nullification, here it is.
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Old August 13, 2014, 10:49 AM   #73
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Quote:
NJgunowner, what makes you think Christie will commute the sentence?

He could stop this right now.
Christie won't get involved unless she gets convicted.
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Old August 13, 2014, 03:31 PM   #74
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I have to wonder, Did she not intend to break the law, or did she not intend to get caught?

I am traveling at the end of October, going through several different states and into Canada, I want to keep my handgun with me, but because of various laws and locations, will be unable to do so.
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Old August 13, 2014, 06:54 PM   #75
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see link in post 44

I have to wonder, Did she not intend to break the law, or did she not intend to get caught?
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