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Old July 20, 2014, 06:51 PM   #1
ezmiraldo
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in the perfect world, any responsible gun owner should choose to...

...at a minimum do these:

1. get regular marksmanship training and practice

2. learn about one's local SD laws

... and preferably also do these:

3. get simunition training (at least occasionally)

4. get scenario-based training, such as the one discussed in the link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1q41...ZHNyz28N4Ov7Wg

i've done 1 and 2, working on doing #3 in the next few months, but have no idea how to do #4 without travelling/spending too much... i think we can all see necessity of # 1 and 2, but what do you folks think about usefulness of # 3 and 4 for low-abiding responsible gun and CCW owners?
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Old July 20, 2014, 07:34 PM   #2
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In a perfect world I would have no need to carry a gun for defensive purposes.
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Old July 20, 2014, 08:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
In a perfect world I would have no need to carry a gun for defensive purposes.
The foundation of this particular subforum of TFL is that self-defense is an unavoidable necessity; questions posed here should be interpreted in that context.
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Old July 20, 2014, 08:51 PM   #4
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I think I would have reversed #3 and #4. I could live the rest of my life just fine without getting shot with anymore sim rounds. I also think #4 and any kind of additional training makes all the difference in the world.

Here's the way I look at it, of course just my opinion. I carry a pistol to save my life if there's literally no other choice. Not because it makes me feel good. I carry a full size pistol. I'm not worried about the extra weight or discomfort. If I have to use it I want to be as lethal as I can be. The same applies to training. It's not always as fun as buying a new gun, but saving the money and paying for the training I think should realistically go to the top of the priority list. I think the ammo and the training should be a financial priority if you CC. If you're a collector, or just like to shoot and own firearms more power to you, I'm on board with that. If you carry to protect your life I don't think people should pick up a new gun until they pick up more training.

There are a lot of great courses out there. We also live in the media age which can be helpful and detrimental. I try to watch videos with instructors with real life credibility not Internet credibility. I really like Magpul videos. I think they're a good way to get some training if you can't afford to get the real deal. There's a lot of great media stuff out there, that was just one that came to my head. Anyway all just my opinions.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:05 PM   #5
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magpul vids are awesome! especially their pistol one - the precision carbine dvd set i didn't care too much for... i agree with tom grisham (among others) who always preach more training. the question i struggle with is: "when do i have enough training to be comfortable as a gun owner". i don't think i've figured out a good answer for it, yet. despite having gone through many high-quality classes (many of which one-on-one tutoring sessions with some of the best instructors), having read dozens of great books, having watched several high-quality dvd courses, i always feel like a newb in bad need of more training.... the more i train, the more i realize how much i don't know.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
I carry a pistol to save my life...
If I have to use it I want to be as lethal as I can be.
There is an interesting divergence between your stated reason for carrying and the goal of your training.

If your goal is to kill people then you would want to be as lethal as you can be. If your goal is, as stated, to save your life, then you should be striving to be as effective at that goal as possible, not striving to achieve some other goal.

Our goals drive our actions and our speech. It is a mistake to fall into the mindset that the goal is killing the attacker because it creates a situation where the defender may take unnecessary risks to kill the attacker when the situation could actually be resolved with less danger to the defender.

Trying to be as lethal as possible may increase the risk of injury or reduce the chances of success. A defender who is fixated on “shooting to kill” could, for example, attempt to shoot at the attacker’s head when the more easily targeted torso shot is available. In practice, headshots are difficult to make and a missed headshot is obviously not nearly as effective at ending a confrontation as a torso hit.

It can also generate a tendency for the defender to take actions that may later call his motives (and therefore the legality of his actions) into question. Remember the defender’s motive/mindset can be an important component of justifying self-defense. Finally, an improper mindset can increase the chances that the defender will make what appear to be self-incriminating comments either before or after the incident.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:37 PM   #7
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Well said JohnKSa.
I also taught "aftermath". What should be in place in the rare event
a person does have to shoot another person in self defense.
I was trained in and taught court room survival also.
We tend to pay a lot of attention and invest time in developing good shooting
skills but too little attention to the inevitable aftermath.
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Old July 20, 2014, 09:46 PM   #8
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Interesting, as I see it, 1, 2 & 3 are doable but I have a problem with number 4. In doing IDPA even just for practice instead of score, it is helpful but not really a situation training, you know exactly who you can and can not shoot and where and what the course of fire is.

Most ranges you can practice your skills with your chosen weapon, but the type of training shown in the Nutfancy video is not available to the general public without great expense and travel.

Since every situation that you might encounter in real life will be different than any other situation (place, time, people involved and type of threat). It would behoove us to exercise extreme caution when carrying to get involved unless we are forced into a situation where there is no alternative before drawing. (meaning if you have to draw, you have to shoot, other wise leave the gun in it's holster.)

I guess, it's time to practice my quick draw, over and over and over, that I can do with snap caps. Now to work on my yelling at the top of my lungs. (LOL) I just hope the neighbors don't call the police over it.

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Old July 20, 2014, 10:28 PM   #9
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Ezmiraldo I love that DVD too. It was a good one to help me set up training drills and try to further my skills without being able to afford to go to as many courses. I'm in the same boat as you. Maybe I'm crazy, call me what you want but I've never once from the military on felt comfortable with my level of training. Every night I think I need more. I don't know if that stops.

JohnKSa Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I completely agree. I will call 911, run hide, yell fire, do whatever it takes to avoid that situation. I simply meant if all options were exhausted, and I do have to draw my weapon I want the training and the weapon to give me every advantage to come out alive. I like to think i would never make the mistake of trying to take an unnecessary head shot.

That little bit being said I definitely agree. I took detainees in Iraq but I still have the unfortunate habit of slipping back into a military mindset designed for a more austere environment. Thank you for your advice and constructive help. I will add that in and always try to bear it in mind.
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Old July 25, 2014, 08:09 PM   #10
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I would reorder those priorities to:

2
1
4
3

Simmunition training, while useful is simply for more completely filling out a scenario training. Scenario training is horribly expensive. I imagine you could try to find less qualified people to conduct such training but you get what you pay for.
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Old July 26, 2014, 12:16 AM   #11
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That depends...what is the goal?
If a person ONLY owns a firearm to compete in Olympic Pistol competitions, do they need to do scenario based training, use simunitions, and study local self-defense laws?

Now, many of us own guns for defense as well as sport. For these people, I generally agree with your suggestions.
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Old August 5, 2014, 07:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
in the perfect world, any responsible gun owner should choose to...
All of the above

I firmly believe it is necessary to do everything you can to improve your self-defense skills.
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Old August 5, 2014, 07:25 PM   #13
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5. Lay low and walk away from verbal and physical threats whenever possible.
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Old August 5, 2014, 08:22 PM   #14
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In a perfect world, guns would never have been invented and there would be no need for guns or any other weapon. Now, back to reality....

Jim
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Old August 6, 2014, 09:29 PM   #15
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In a perfect world we'd all be skilled shooters, and probably don't need anything more than 9mm and 5.56 weapons. Suppressed and Short-barrel rifles/shotguns, and cheap Select-fire weapons would be available at any local gun shop and big box store.

But it isn't so.

If I were to suggest training, I recommend IDPA and 3-Gun events, Low-light shooting, and Appleseed.
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Old August 6, 2014, 11:09 PM   #16
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The problem that I see with scenario training is that the circumstance will seldom match the training.

I studied Karate when I was younger. Hours and hours of training to deal with circumstances that never happened in real live. How much time and effort do you want to put into this?

I think it better to be alert with what is around you so that you are not blindsided.
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Old August 9, 2014, 06:47 AM   #17
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Simunitions training is expensive and can be hard to find. Doing the exact same thing with softairs or paintballs can be done most anywhere even in your own home. Training is what you make of it. Every time I fire a gun I am training in that I am familiarizing with the firearms capabilities. IDPA is a great venue to practice live fire drills under the pressure of the clock anyway and a paintball at close range hurts about as much as a SIM especially if you leave off the flack jackets which defeats the purpose of using the Simunitions anyway. For the general firearm owning population knowing your guns and what they can do is plenty. Not everybody is looking to be a Concealed Carry Operator. I think safety instructor training is far more important. That way you hold yourself to a higher standard of safety and can effectively instruct new shooters to the sport.
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Old August 9, 2014, 11:07 PM   #18
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I think that’s excellent, a tad much if you’re a new shooter but whatever. If you are, I’m more interested in how you’ve tailored your “practice” and “marksmanship” programs. Have you set up drills, do you time them, do any matches…? Sorry, just like knowing how other shooters train.

My best advice - 1. Always keep eye’s open for good shooting mentors (a lot cheaper than 3 & 4), 2. There are three phases to range work; preparing, practicing, and training.

Good luck my friend.
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Old August 10, 2014, 07:08 AM   #19
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Find a club that hosts IDPA matches. Attend a few pick some brains and meet some people. After a few visits you will know what you need to get started. The stages all involve multiple sometimes moving targets under the pressure of the clock. Your only costs would be your setup, match fees and ammo. You can even run the match with your concealed carry rig if you want. As I said earlier though safety is where you need to start so wether it is your local Hunter safety course(best value) or any of the NRA etc basic safety programs because we don't need mindless numbnuts out spraying bullets and muzzle sweeping people.
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Old August 10, 2014, 07:21 AM   #20
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Hungry Hunter. A more civilian appropriate term is till the threat is neutralized.Wether they surrender at the sight of the gun or assume room temperature it is about neutralizing the threat that made you fear for your life.
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Old August 16, 2014, 08:27 PM   #21
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I'm for all of them, but with that being said...

1 and 2 are a given. If you aren't doing these then I think you need to brush up on them before I would consider you being a responsible gun owner. Marksmanship doesn't mean you need to be making one tattered 5 round group hole in the three different targets in 5 seconds... just be proficient enough to draw, fire, and consistently hit somewhere on a torso at 10ish yards under stress with a little bit of speed. Not an unrealistic standard. Gun laws are very important.

Sim rounds make good training... but I would not rank that as something that I deem necessary for the average CCW gun owner. If you are really serious about your training then by all means. However... I don't want to create realistic standards for the average gun owner.

As to the scenario training. I think this is important. If you wanted to you could actually do this with airsoft and some buddies who are serious about training for free. Are you going to glean what you would from a 500 dollar training course? No... but you could probably pick up a few things, especially if you have a buddy who is LEO or former LEO.



RANT ON: one of the biggest issues I have seen with some scenario based training is that many instructors turn it into one deadly force scenario after another. Most of the scenarios in some scenario based training classes result in discharging a firearm (or airsoft gun). I don't like that as it isn't quite as realistic. Good scenario based training will ensure that your gun stays holstered most of the time... if you unholster a gun in the training in a situation that would put you in hot legal water then you are counseled for it. After running through a number of training scenarios which are a little hairy but also in which the gun should NEVER LEAVE THE HOLSTER, then throw in a clear deadly force scenario. This way you condition someone to not automatically reach for the gun during the training. You're forced to think about it and respond appropriately. Going to scenario training that presents you with nothing but, or a majority of, deadly force scenarios is poor training, IMO: RANT OFF

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Old August 17, 2014, 12:23 AM   #22
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I think putting #2 at the top would giver better results. When you learn how complex use of deadly force laws are you will either not buy a gun or definitely start training.

+1 to 5whiskeys rant...
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Old August 19, 2014, 12:52 AM   #23
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Hvymax, sounds good. I need a new vocab.
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Old August 19, 2014, 10:26 AM   #24
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I think you left out one important skill set needed.

Quote:
Imagine you’re at a shooting range and the person next to you has an accidental discharge that hits you, your friend or a loved one. What would you do? The hospital is 30 – 45 minutes away and an ambulance will take 45 minutes to an hour to respond. If you were out hunting in a field somewhere it could take even longer. Do you know what you should do to increase the odds of survival for the injured person? If not, this course is your answer.

Emergency Treatment of Gunshot Wounds is a course for anyone who spends time around firearms, whether it be for hunting, recreational shooting or personal protection. Designed by an emergency room physician and taught by an EMT, this course teaches the lay person the skill set needed to effectively treat a person with a gunshot wound. In this hands on course you will learn how to access and evaluate gunshot wounds, how to minimize or stop bleeding, how to correct or maintain a compromised airway, how to properly prepare a wound for transport to a hospital and how to treat for shock and handle patient duress.

You will also learn the difference between a first aid kit and a gunshot trauma kit and how to use both. Additionally, you will learn how to assemble and use an inexpensive, pocket-sized gunshot trauma kit to keep in your range bag, hunting jacket or anytime you’re around firearms.

If you spend time around firearms for any reason, the information you will learn in this course could save your life or the life of someone you care about. Sign up today to learn this critical skill set.

Equipment Requirements

Comfortable clothing and footwear

A pair of pants that can be destroyed

A shirt that can be destroyed

EMT shears or rescue knife if you own them

Food/Beverages for personal consumption



Tuition: $199.99 Click here to Register Now
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Old August 19, 2014, 06:12 PM   #25
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Yes, Jim, first aid training is must, as well.
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